Shunsui & Ukitake Mega Convo

[DEATHBOTT]

His opinion is fine, but to say he's unpopular is misguided. Being the 17th most popular character out of 50 characters is pretty popular to me. Especially considering that this poll was taken in 2008. Out of date you might say but not much has changed since then. He has received one fight, he beat Stark, that's it. Being 17th before he even had a real fight makes me believe he'll just improve his stock.

On top of that, Bleach wikia polls show that Shunsui is the highest rated captain in popularity. This might be mostly american readers but it's a lot of readers with over 5300 votes. Shunsui taking 1287 votes, or over 23% which put him first in terms of captains. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach_Wiki:Poll_Results

oh yeah i agree with you about that he probably is one of the more popular captains, hes definatly my favourite. i do think he is hyped though, whether him and ukitake are deserving of the hype is the important question, i think he is.

[freshseth83]

I think he is as well. Even though Aizen cut him down, we have to remember it wasn't just Shunsui, it was Hitsugaya, Shinji, Soi-Fon, and others as well. I don't think Mr. Aizen is this godly character. I know he's strong but why would he be more powerful than guys who've been around as captains when he wasn't even contemplating his trickery? I just don't fall into hype over certain characters. Be it Shunsui Ukitake or whoever. I don't think any character is underrated or overrated. It's just the fans that make it seem that way. There's an explanation as to why Shunsui and Ukitake lost. Shunsui lost because he was in an illusion, and he was caught off guard thanks to Hitsugaya. Ukitake lost because of his unwillingness to fight against children.

Kyoraku Shunsui and Kuchiki Byakuya are my favorite characters though.

[DEATHBOTT]

I think he is as well. Even though Aizen cut him down, we have to remember it wasn't just Shunsui, it was Hitsugaya, Shinji, Soi-Fon, and others as well. I don't think Mr. Aizen is this godly character. I know he's strong but why would he be more powerful than guys who've been around as captains when he wasn't even contemplating his trickery? I just don't fall into hype over certain characters. Be it Shunsui Ukitake or whoever. I don't think any character is underrated or overrated. It's just the fans that make it seem that way. There's an explanation as to why Shunsui and Ukitake lost. Shunsui lost because he was in an illusion, and he was caught off guard thanks to Hitsugaya. Ukitake lost because of his unwillingness to fight against children.

Kyoraku Shunsui and Kuchiki Byakuya are my favorite characters though.

fans hypeing a character who is weak or vice versa is the definition of over and underrated.
as far as shunsui's strength compared to aizan's goes there are a number of reasons aizan could be considered stronger. 1st age doesn't equal strength, in 100 years shunsui said hitsugaya will surpass him. some guys are just more talented/gifted than others. plus the fact that we don't know the origin of aizan yet means he could be their age for all we know.
2nd his zanpakuto is extremely powerful like yama's its better than most bankai in shikai.

[freshseth83]

No, Aizen is not super talented. He has the Hoguyoku and the benefit of illusions. We don't know what to believe with him. When he did the level 90 spell back in SS to Komamura, it didn't work fully. If he were as skilled as yama, he would have pulled it off at 100% in it's effectiveness. Only Yama pulled off a 90 level Kido without incantation with full effect, even after he was burnt by his own flames.

You said fans hyping a character is making them over or underrated. I'm not thinking about fans in this thread. I'm thinking about the characters. Ukitake and Shunsui don't seem overrated. I don't think anyone with a captain position should be considered overrated. Some captains are better than others. And according to Yama, these two are better than all captains and shinigami. Shunsui didn't say in 100 years Hitsugaya would be better than him. He said he is a genius, answering Starrks question, and that maybe in a hundred years or so his Bankai would be stronger. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/361/09/

[Raizen]

The author has not disappointed us w/ shunsui and uki. They have been shown to be as powerful as what yama has stated. Shunsui's feat is a testament to that. I want to see more of uki

[En Yang Ji]

IMO they are overrated by the fans. People seem to think others like, Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai, Gin, and Aizen can't be stronger than them.

[Gran Maestro]

IMO they are overrated by the fans. People seem to think others like, Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai, Gin, and Aizen can't be stronger than them.

Likewise Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai and Gin are also overrated because people seem to think Shunsui & Ukitake can't be stronger than these guys, it seems fan speculation overrides manga evidence.

I've seen people who think Aizen can curbstomp Shunsui & Ukitake without KS. Really? Even Yamamoto's shikai didn't curbstomp them and a weaker shinigami with his unreleased sword will curbstomp them! Alert, alert, severe logical fallacy!

[Raizen]

^ i can easily say shinji, urahara, youruichi and them are also overrated by their fans. How can they be stronger than shunsui when they have yet to show any feats on the level of shunsui? It works both ways

[En Yang Ji]

Just because they haven't shown amazing feats yet, doesn't mean it's impossible for them to be stronger than Shunsui & Ukitake.

I think Shunsui & Ukitake can be stronger than all of them except Aizen, I just don't think that's the case.

[freshseth83]

then what is the case ki0? who's stronger than those guys? Actually, lets ask, who is more skilled? Because strength gets you only so far. This is brought out by Nnoitra. His desire to become the strongest did no good. He might have had the strongest skin, or toughest, or he might have been the strongest espada in terms of strength, but he was ranked #5, and lost to Kenpachi. Do you think Kenpachi could beat Shunsui? How would he stand against Shunsui since he's the 'strongest' Shinigami? You think that's all that matters as a shinigami is brute strength? How about Shunpo? Kido? Endurance? Intelligence?

Jushiro and Shunsui combine all of that together and that's why they are unequaled in terms of skill. Someone may be better at Kido, someone may have more physical strength, someone may have better shunpo techniques, but no one has all of the above in a package the way these two do. The only one I can say that will end up where these guys are is Byakuya. Because he uses all of it. Kido, Shunpo, intelligence, you name it.

[En Yang Ji]

- I probably should of phrased it differently. When I said strength I meant overall strength.

- There's other shinigami who have a wide range of skills and abilities. According to the databook Gin is an all-around type. Also he's a genius with a extremely strong bankai.

Urahara is one of the most complete shinigami in the series. He's one of the 2 most intelligent characters in the series, is great at kido, extremely fast, a master of hand to hand combat, and can use science to increase his combat capabilities drastically.

Urahara uses everything you mentioned, kido, shunpo and intelligence.

- There are other shinigami who are just as impressive as Shunsui and Ukitake.

[DEATHBOTT]

No, Aizen is not super talented. He has the Hoguyoku and the benefit of illusions. We don't know what to believe with him. When he did the level 90 spell back in SS to Komamura, it didn't work fully. If he were as skilled as yama, he would have pulled it off at 100% in it's effectiveness. Only Yama pulled off a 90 level Kido without incantation with full effect, even after he was burnt by his own flames.

You said fans hyping a character is making them over or underrated. I'm not thinking about fans in this thread. I'm thinking about the characters. Ukitake and Shunsui don't seem overrated. I don't think anyone with a captain position should be considered overrated. Some captains are better than others. And according to Yama, these two are better than all captains and shinigami. Shunsui didn't say in 100 years Hitsugaya would be better than him. He said he is a genius, answering Starrks question, and that maybe in a hundred years or so his Bankai would be stronger. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/361/09/

the benefit of illusions is his zanpakuto the same way shunsui benefits from his zanpakuto. and he hasnt always had the hoguyuko when he has shown skill like blocking tessais kido. and i wasnt saying he is more talented than yama, yama is extremely talented, but he could have a natural talent because as far as im aware he is younger than yama. i doubt either shunsui or ukitake could preform a full power 90 spell with out cantation aswell. and the same way yama said shunsui and ukitake are skilled gin also said aizan is extremely powerful.

i dont understand what you mean by you are talking about the character. you are a fan and either you underrate, overarate or perfectly represent the character in your mind. i personally feel that you overrate shunsui and ukitake but underrate other characters but i still feel that overall shunsui and ukitake are deserving of there reputation. you propabbly feel that i overrate some characters and underrate shunsui.

[freshseth83]

My point was made when you said Gin talked about how strong Aizen was. We can believe Gin over Yama? So Gin not even knowing every captain or their abilties is more of a believable source than the Captain Commander? Who has to witness someone's Bankai and can gauge someone's skills in order to become captain? Blocking tessai's kido wasn't that hard. It was a danku spell, weve seen Byakuya use it plenty of times before. He used it against Zommari to block his Amore. It stops all Kido up to level 90(?) It's things like this that people say on here that makes their points kind of useless.

When you point out things and say one character praises another, but then when I point out the Highest ranking Character points out about the characters in question in this thread it's not correct? So what makes your points about Gin talking of Aizen a better gauge than Yama talking about Shunsui and Jushiro?

[DEATHBOTT]

My point was made when you said Gin talked about how strong Aizen was. We can believe Gin over Yama? So Gin not even knowing every captain or their abilties is more of a believable source than the Captain Commander? Who has to witness someone's Bankai and can gauge someone's skills in order to become captain? Blocking tessai's kido wasn't that hard. It was a danku spell, weve seen Byakuya use it plenty of times before. He used it against Zommari to block his Amore. It stops all Kido up to level 90(?) It's things like this that people say on here that makes their points kind of useless.

When you point out things and say one character praises another, but then when I point out the Highest ranking Character points out about the characters in question in this thread it's not correct? So what makes your points about Gin talking of Aizen a better gauge than Yama talking about Shunsui and Jushiro?

i dont see why they both cant be right, i mean yama couldnt have taken aizan into account. i dont question that shunsui and ukitake are talented, i beleive they are usually worthy of their hype. i dont get what you mean by you are not talking about the fans over or underrating characters because that is all there is. if you think people think shunsui and ukitake are worse than they really are than you would say that they are under rated. if you think people think they are better than they are then they are overrated.

[freshseth83]

because the topic of this thread is Shunsui & Ukitake overrated? Not Do YOU THINK they are overrated? Or Do PEOPLE THINK they are overrated? When this thread was made, these two had no real fights. Shunsui beat chad with a swipe of his swords but didn't want to kill him. That's not a good determining factor of his strength, and Ukitake managed to stop Byakuya by grabbing his hand when he was going to kill Hinatoro. I don't think either showed any type of 'hype' or feats of unrivaled strength back then. Until people heard Yama's words about them, no one considered they were the best captains. And after that, when this thread was made, those incidents were all we had to base our assumptions of them off of.