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View Poll Results: What tier are Shunsui & Ukitake in?

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99. You may not vote on this poll
  • They're high-tier. Don't mess with them or you'll be sorry.

    86 86.87%
  • They're mid-tier. They're outstanding but so are every other captain.

    13 13.13%
  • They're low-tier. New generation surpasses the old.

    0 0%
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Thread: Shunsui & Ukitake Mega Convo

  1. #181
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Raizen's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Just because they haven't shown amazing feats yet, doesn't mean it's impossible for them to be stronger than Shunsui & Ukitake.

    I think Shunsui & Ukitake can be stronger than all of them except Aizen, I just don't think that's the case.
    So u are basing it on nothing but assumptions and disregarding our claims even though it is based on facts and manga evidence?

  2. #182
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    What facts? Yama's statement? That's not a fact, because he could be wrong. As far as feats are concerned, most of the character I mentioned have more impressive feats than Shunsui or Ukitake.

    Yoruichi was able to outrun Byakuya when she was carrying Ichigo and out of shape, after not fighting for 100 years. She also was able to beat Soi Fong without even using her zanpakatou.

    Tessai used a kido that can stop time and one that can move space.

    Tousen was able to stop Komumura's bankai bare-handed and take it out in one attack.

    Urahara's is fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen without even releasing his zanpakatou.



    - The biggest thing Shunsui & Ukitake have going for than is Yama's statement and his statement is false.

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  4. #183
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    What facts? Yama's statement? That's not a fact, because he could be wrong. As far as feats are concerned, most of the character I mentioned have more impressive feats than Shunsui or Ukitake.
    Let's see.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Yoruichi was able to outrun Byakuya when she was carrying Ichigo and out of shape, after not fighting for 100 years. She also was able to beat Soi Fong without even using her zanpakatou.
    Yes, Yoruichi is fast, so? Do you think the fastest always wins? Fastest espada Zommari was #7.

    Yoruichi defeated Soifon (shikai), #2 Barragan (unreleased) humiliated Soifon (shikai), Shunsui (unreleased) held his own against #1 Stark (unreleased).

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Tessai used a kido that can stop time and one that can move space.
    So you say Tessai is Hiro Nakamura and he can stop time and kill anybody including Aizen? What's he waiting for? How do you know Tessai's time-stop kidou is applicable in combat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Tousen was able to stop Komumura's bankai bare-handed and take it out in one attack.
    Defeating Komamura's bankai is a much less impressive feat than defeating primera with shikai. Komamura is possibly the weakest captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    Urahara's is fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen without even releasing his zanpakatou.
    Urahara's fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen who doesn't bother to be careful, use KS or defend himself like he did against Shunsui and other captains. You're talking as if he fought Aizen and won.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - The biggest thing Shunsui & Ukitake have going for than is Yama's statement and his statement is false.
    Shunsui & Ukitake survived a brief encounter against Yamamoto's shikai, Shunsui defeated #1 espada with his shikai, Yamamoto's statement outweighs your opinion because it's manga evidence, yours is fan speculation. You don't have manga evidence that supports your opinion at the moment.

  5. #184
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    - The fastest espada was tricked by Yoruichi's shunpo technique. Also Yoruichi is faster than the shinigami who used her move on Zommari. IMO Yoruichi is not simply fast, but she is powerful. Shunko concentrates huge amount of reiastu in her body and enhances it. It allows her to use huge kido blast when attacking her opponent.

    - Barragan was one of the worst possible match-ups for Soi Fon. His ability unreleased, slowed Soi Fon down a lot. When Barragan released she couldn't even get close to him, because of respira. Also she's mostly a close-range fighter. The only reason she was being beaten is because it was a horrible match-up for her.

    - I doubt Shunsui could beat Barragan with just shikai. Also Shunsui win against Starrk was situational. Its was a hard won victory, that likely wouldn't of happened if there was no interference and Shunsui only used shikai.

    - Aizen may of been careless, but that was only regarding Urahara's gigai trick and him not using KS.

    - How do we know Komumura is weak? Every time he was beaten, it always was by a strong a character. Komumura's bankai is all about strength. Tousen was able to hold that off with one hand. Do you think Shunsui or Ukitake can do this with their shikai?

    - Yama's statement was Kubo's way of hyping Shunsui & Ukitake, but that doesn't mean it has to be true. I take Yama's statement with a grain of salt and I take only to mean they are strong. Yama could be wrong, since he there was a lot of things he didn't know about.

    - Your right about Tessai, though. His spells may not be useable in battle. I doubt that's the case. The incantation time for Tessai's forbidden kido couldn't of been that long, otherwise Shinji and the others would of become complete hollows.
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; May 12, 2010 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #185
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - The fastest espada was tricked by Yoruichi's shunpo technique. Also Yoruichi is faster than the shinigami who used her move on Zommari. IMO Yoruichi is not simply fast, but she is powerful. Shunko allows her to use huge kido blast when attacking her opponent.
    The point is you can't say Yoruichi is superior to Shunsui & Ukitake in overall strength just because Yoruichi is faster. Look at the total package.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - I doubt Shunsui could beat Barragan with just shikai. Also Shunsui win against Starrk was situational. Its was a hard won victory, that likely wouldn't of happened if there was no interference and Shunsui only used shikai.
    I think Shunsui could defeat Barragan with shikai in a color game. Yes, the win over Stark was a hard victory but nonetheless it was an impressive feat because I don't think a lot of people would manage to survive against primera with shikai only. And the interference didn't help Shunsui much as I explained it in detail in my earlier posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - Aizen may of been careless, but that was only regarding Urahara's gigai trick and him not using KS.
    The point is Urahara did nothing to Aizen that suggests he's superior to Shunsui. What exactly is Urahara's feat, to use Hadou 91 against an Aizen who doesn't bother to dodge and fail? Failure is not a feat. Shunsui stabbed Aizen but it was actually an illusion, was it a feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - How do we know Komumura is weak? Every time he was beaten, it always was by a strong a character. Komumura's bankai is all about strength. Tousen was able to hold that off with one hand.
    So which captains are weaker than Komamura? I'd like to hear your opinion. Yes, Tousen blocked Komamura's bankai with his hand, so? Does it mean Tousen can defeat everybody who can't block Komamura's bankai with his hand? Komamura's bankai failed to defeat Kenpachi (with eyepatch), Kenpachi possibly blocked it with his sword unless you argue that Kenpachi was running away from Komamura, Komamura seems to be a low-tier captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - Yama's statement was Kubo's way of hyping Shunsui & Ukitake, but that doesn't mean it has to be true. I take Yama's statement with a grain of salt and I take only to mean they are strong. Yama could be wrong, since he there was a lot of things he didn't know about.
    Why are we supposed to take Yamamoto's statement with a grain of salt? Is there any reliable statement in Bleach, are we supposed to ignore Bleach text? Yamamoto didn't say they were strong, he said nobody had surpassed them. (possibly nobody from Shinigami academy according to the context) Yamamoto's words stand until Kubo proves him wrong, we can't ignore it because if we will ignore manga, how are we supposed to have discussions?

  7. #186
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.

    Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.

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  9. #187
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Raizen's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.

    Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.
    Let's assume for a moment that rose and love are basically similar in strength. Love got point blank hits on starks and didn't even scratch him, what do u think rose can do with a whip that slow?
    Uki interfered b/c now it was 2-on-2. They are in a war, now that its fair, it is only logical that he interferes and finish the fight quick.
    Love dealt with the guns b/c his huge club basically gave him cover. It was not as if love can take the gun like they were nothing. Shunsui took a cero and was not even hurt.

    As for losing cool
    Shinji lost his cool
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/14/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/16/

    Shunsui was the only staying calm and told hitsu to calm down

  10. #188
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Not all shinigami's zanpakutou are the same though. Just because other shinigami skip straight to bankai when they fight there enemies doesn't mean they're weaker. Some characters seem to have really hax shikai while others have weak ones. A perfect example of this is Byakuya. Judging him by his shikai, I would say he's pretty pathetic. Byakuya's shikai seems like it would be useless for anything else but quickly taking out several fodder targets. However, Byakuya easily redeems himself with his bankai, which is totally amazing. Then we have characters like Soi Fon, who has a deadly shikai and a so-so bankai, which is why she avoids using it.

    Look at Yumichika, he's a freakin 5th seat that can easily defeat one of the strongest VCs because of his hax shikai. Who knows how far that shikai could get him too, it could just as easily be used against a captain level shinigami. Aizen can take on like 10 captains at once because of hax shikai. Shunsui is obviously one of those characters with a hax shikai, so obviously he can take on stronger opponents without relying on bankai, but he's not necessarily stronger overall. I'm sure Soi Fon can defeat stronger opponents with her shikai than Byakuya could with his shikai, but that doesn't necessarily make her stronger than him, does it? What if she had been matched againt Starrk instead of Barragan? She may have defeated him in shikai, but even if she had done so, I still wouldn't declare her as more powerful than the other captains.

    Toushirou is another one with a relatively unimpressive shikai. His shikai couldn't even hurt an unreleased Yammi, but we've seen what he can do in bankai.
    Last edited by Kaiten; May 15, 2010 at 01:56 AM.

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  12. #189
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.
    We've seen Shunsui keep up with Stark when they were both unreleased, this is indeed an impressive feat. Shunsui would go bankai if he thought he stood no chance against Stark's guns, he was obviously expecting something to happen, i.e. color game. And it seems Shunsui could still stab Stark in a shadow game even if Stark wasn't distracted because Stark had no idea that Shunsui had such an ability and he dodged Shunsui's regular sneak attacks but failed to do so against Kageoni. The point is only a few people can survive primera's resurreccion with shikai. Shunsui did it and nobody can say that it would be impossible for him without interference of Ukitake and vizards. It would solely depend on sword's mood, this is what the manga suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.
    As Raizen stated, Shinji certainly lost his cool. This page makes it look like Shunsui was distracted because of Hitsugaya whereas others were obviously angry/enraged.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    What if she had been matched againt Starrk instead of Barragan? She may have defeated him in shikai, but even if she had done so, I still wouldn't declare her as more powerful than the other captains.
    If Soifon did defeat Stark with shikai and Shunsui did lose to Barragan with bankai, I would certainly declare Soifon as much more powerful than Shunsui. How else are we supposed to decide who is weaker and who is stronger if we don't take indirect evidence into consideration? All strength rankings mostly depend on indirect evidence, I don't think the result of every fight is almost random.

    Yumichika's shikai defeated Hisagi's unreleased sword but I'm pretty sure Hisagi can defeat him rather comfortably in a rematch. Hisagi didn't know Ikkaku had bankai but he still thought Yumichika was weaker than him despite the fact that he knew Yumichika's shikai. Anyway, I agree that some bankais are rather underwhelming compared to shikais but still a bankai is a bankai, it's expected to be 5-10 times stronger than a shikai under normal circumstances. Shunsui's bankai should be total failure to make his victory over Stark less pale in comparison.
    Last edited by Gran Maestro; May 13, 2010 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #190
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member poobert's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Samurai Guapo View Post
    Toushirou is another one with a relatively unimpressive shikai. His shikai couldn't even hurt an unreleased Yammi, but we've seen what he can do in bankai.
    http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/16/

    This right? Hitsu said his shikai was basically useless against Yammi.

    There is something really dodgy going on with powerlevels here. Just earlier, Ichi sliced clean through yami's arm. Hitsu managed to use his shikai to good effect against Gin, the guy that could probably slaughter old yami without even bothering to release. Later, Hitsu is taking on Hallibel. The sheer difference of power between the old Yami and Halibell is insane. It is obvious that Kubo intended the espada to be much stronger than they were and changed them last minute (basically right after Uliquorra died).

    But anyway, some shikai's like Shunsui's are disproportionally more powerful than others. This is a fact. However some shikai's generally don't give characters power or speed boosts. Shunsuis/uki's/Aizen/shinji/urahara's do neither, they just tack on an ability to they unreleased sword. Yama's gives him a power boost, and it looks like Hitsu's bankai gives him one too.

    This basically means that dodging and sword fighting (speed and skill) are unaffected by releasing. Shunsui managed to keep up with stark, and that has nothing to do with the ability of his sword. Hitsu couldn't keep up with Halibel and obviously stands no chance against anyone higher, regardless of his zanpakto ability. Even with his bankai he couldnt get close to her. Shunsui could have done it unreleased, which is undeniable considering his shikai does not give him a speed boost (he probably however would have lacked the power that Hitsu's bankai had).

    Shunsui matching stark is a testament to his skill and speed, not his zanpakto. imo him matching stark and even topping him in reflexes and sword fighting is more impressive than his victory which relies a great deal on the vizards getting in the way and his cheap shikai.

    btw It also explains why some characters sometimes dont even bother to release. Shinji prefers to fight with his mask because it actually does something to his speed/power, unlike his zan which does nothing. Probably the same as Isshin.

    -----------

    tl;dr even if Shunsui's victory was to do with his cheap sword and the vizard, it doesn't remove the raw skill and speed he showed.
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  14. #191
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    while i agree with you, there's something i disagree with you on. First i agree that it does show that regardless of Shunsui's shikai he is on par with Stark, and would be able to keep up with Hallibel Barragan Ulquiorra, etc. But saying his sword is cheap is like saying Aizen's illusions are cheap. Basically what is happening here is someone in shikai is more powerful than someone in bankai. Which is plausible since Shunsui is one of the first captains, according to Yama. The only reason he said he would go bankai is because his swords weren't in the mood. Or in other words, he wasn't in the mood. Why? Because Stark was b-s'ing him. He knew he could do more than just shoot ceros, but stark lied and said he couldn't. So when Stark finally does his release and just shoots ceros Shunsui pretty much deducted that Stark wasn't going to get serious afterall, even though he thought he would. And knew that a person with only such an amount of strength could be defeated with his shikai. This is a skill only certain captains posses. Other's go Bankai out of fear that they will be overwhelmed or their Shikai won't be enough. That's lack of strength. Every other captain went Bankai to defeat Espada. Shunsui goes Shikai to beat the PRIMERA espada. No matter how you look at it, Ukitake and Shunsui's skills are beyond that of the other captains. Ukitake was schooling Lillynette. She couldn't even get a cero through him, he swatted it away like it was a bug.

  15. #192
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DEATHBOTT's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    As Raizen stated, Shinji certainly lost his cool. This page makes it look like Shunsui was distracted because of Hitsugaya whereas others were obviously angry/enraged.
    but the reason he was open was because hitsugaya charged.

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Everyone was open because of Hitsugaya's charge, but no one made anything of it except Shunsui. The rest weren't aware or didn't think it was a big deal or something else, but Shunsui was the only one to yell for Hitsugaya to stop. At least he went out trying to stop the chain from being broken. So much for the others. There's lots of things besides that point that makes Shunsui an awesome character. Read chapter 362.

  17. #194
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHBOTT View Post
    but the reason he was open was because hitsugaya charged.
    It is unclear whether he lost focus because of Hitsugaya or because he was enraged. Only Shunsui was yelling to Hitsugaya, we can't see who others were looking at, Hitsugaya or Aizen. Actually Shinji and Hitsugaya seemed to be looking at the same direction. It's a fact that Shunsui kept his composure to some extent, Shinji wasn't in his best mind.

  18. #195
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DEATHBOTT's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    so you think they were chargeing at aizan? they were becomeing tense because hitsugaya was chargeing.


    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Everyone was open because of Hitsugaya's charge, but no one made anything of it except Shunsui. The rest weren't aware or didn't think it was a big deal or something else, but Shunsui was the only one to yell for Hitsugaya to stop. At least he went out trying to stop the chain from being broken. So much for the others. There's lots of things besides that point that makes Shunsui an awesome character. Read chapter 362.
    yes because kubo's gonna make them all shout out "no hitsygaya" at the same time. anyway i dont see how this speaks out about shunsuis fighting skill he let himself become open to attack. but because he yelled out he is better than shinji and soi fon!!!
    Last edited by DEATHBOTT; May 14, 2010 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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