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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Discussion of Humans' Possibility in Killing Yomas* and in Taking Down the Organization
*Yoma: Any yoma-fleshed being = (normal) yomas, Claymores, Half Awakens, (normal) Awakeneds, Abyssal Ones, the Abyss Feeders/Abyss Eaters/"Demons", "Hellcats", "Infected Hosts", and the Destroyer
1. The humans’ survival, and independence. The humans have been dependant upon the Claymores (the military force of the Organization) and thus the Organization itself, to protect them from the very yomas that the Organization is creating on the island. Will the humans on the island ever be free of the Organization and its yomas and Claymores?
2. The Claymores sacrifice their very humanity and even lives to protect the often unappreciative humans from yomas. The life of a Claymore is that of a hardcore warrior, they give up almost all of the joys and pleasures of life for others’ (the humans’) safety. Despite this, the unappreciative humans treat them like yomas (well, they are yomas, except for their human minds and human appearances). It is a very hard and brutal life. The worst part of it is that most Claymores don’t realize what fools they are. They don’t realize the Organization created the yomas, and they are merely part of that further experiment in creating living weapons. Claymores often are killed by their own kind due to their Awakening, either before it happens or after when they are Awakeneds. Or, maybe, worse, they aren’t killed, ending up as Awakeneds, whom lose their human soul or humanity, and will live for a long time (unless killed). If humans could deal with the (normal) yomas (or the Organization itself) on their own, they wouldn’t need to go to the Organization and become Claymores, which then makes matters worse, as Claymores can Awaken into Awakeneds, which are far worse than (normal) yomas.
3. Currently* Miria is in Rabona discussing with the Rabona leaders (presumably the clergy) about the Organization’s “dark affairs” and how/what they should do about the Organization. There could be an alliance between the humans and the Ghosts against the Organization. Thus the importance of discussing whether the humans can actually be of any help against the Organization or not.
*except there’s a possibility that Miria has “moved”
Tell, discuss, and/or debate what you think about the humans' possibility as being able to help the Ghosts (Miria and co) rebel and overthrow the Organization. Will the humans be of any help to the Ghosts against the Organization/Black Coats and its/their Yoma (including its/their Claymores) creations/forces?
My own thoughts
Humans, I guess, "can" kill yomas, even possibly Priscilla herself (if she ever ran out of yoki, becoming not much different in power/ability from a human), if they can kill them (skin/hide is soft, aka able to cut/damage them. they are severely weakened and can't use any of their inhuman abilities/powers such as regeneration due to being out of yoki. The humans aren't killed first and/or the humans are in a situation where they can kill the yomas).
However, such specific scenarios, will likely almost never occur, and thus humans will almost never be able to kill any yomas, even the weakest (normal) yomas.
So, I've really got no idea how/what help the humans can be for the Ghosts in their rebellion/coup against the Organization.
for me, the quickest/briefest point to apply to the problem in my analysis of this discussion/debate is:
humans vs rank 2 Awakened Agatha vs rank 2 Awakened Rigardo (or rank 3 Awakened Dauf)
humans in no way could stand a chance against Rigardo (unless they maybe kill him while he's sleeping in his human form/body, lol). He's so fast!
Dauf's skin/hide is simply too hard for humans to cut and thus they can't kill Dauf either (unless they maybe kill him while he's sleeping in his human form/body, lol).
however, Cid did manage to decapitate the (fake) head of Agatha
so... this point shows me that... it depends on a lot of factors, which makes humans' chances extremely slim of killing even the weakest (normal) yoma, let alone an Awakened.
Though, Agatha could possibly have been killed if her real head (or vital organs) was inside her fake head.
So, it's possible for humans to kill yomas, even Awakeneds, but the scenario has to be perfect with all the factors "lining up" in favor of the humans.
Information (and my own opinions/speculations/theories/views) that I've gathered on this subject to help and aid in the discussion
(feel free to make any additions, corrections, have disagreements about what I've wrote below, or whatever)
The "food chain" on the island:
Inferiority (greater "prey")
1. "humans" = humans
2. "super humans" = (normal) yomas
3. "super yomas" = Claymores
4. "super Claymores" = Awakeneds
Superiority (greater "predator")
Humans range from "helpless sheep" (numerous people, such as initial child Raki in chapter 1) to Cid, Galk, and Raki, all three of whom can probably (Cid and Galk) and can (Raki) kill (normal) yomas at the "low end" (weakest of the normal yomas) in a 1v1.
However, Cid+Galk were powerless against the "high end" (strongest of the normal yomas) yoma seen in the Rabona cathedral.
But, we also see Cid, using group tactics, able to sneak up on a rank 2 Awakened (Agatha) and chop off her (fake) head.
Lastly, it is said in the manga, that humans can kill yomas, provided that they can cut through their skin/hide, they are able to target/damage its actual vital organs, they can identify the yoma, and that the yoma can't heal, re-attach, or regenerate in time.
In fact, injured Clare's plan, was going to hold (lol) the "high end" powerful (normal) yoma still with her hands in the cathedral while the Rabona military humans spear it to death.
The problem though is that for most humans, even just the (normal) yoma is far too superior to be killed in a 1v1 match. (Normal) Yomas are "super humans". They move too fast and are too strong for most humans to compete against, especially in a 1v1 match. Not to mention their inhuman abilities/powers. And this isn't even addressing Claymores and Awakeneds, whom are even more superior than (normal) yomas are.
The first problem however is identifying the yomas as they can take human form. There are supposedly some humans whom can sense yoki, though the only (main) example we have of this, is Clare. And Clare was only able to sense at least Awakened Priscilla's yoki (the current supreme living being), not a "puny" (normal) yoma's yoki (at least I don't think the manga ever shows Clare being able to sense a normal yoma's yoki). Regardless either way, there's definately not enough humans whom can sense yoki from the hundreds of (normal) yomas. This means that the humans would have to have a Ghost (Claymore) with them. However, there's only at most ~ ten Ghosts. Obviously, this is going to be a huge problem to deal with, without even addressing all the other problems as well.
2. (Normal) Yomas
(Normal) Yomas are the generic "humanoid" male yomas. The "monsters" you see. They're somewhat orcish in appearance, though they can take the form/body of humans that they eat the brains of. They are "super humans", superior to humans. They are faster and stronger then humans, and they have inhuman abilities/powers, as well.
(These do not include the the new mummy/bandaged female yomas, as they are the Abyss Feeders/Abyss Eaters/"Demons", which are either (restrained) Awakeneds or 3/4 yoma 1/4 human hybrid Claymores. Also, we're not talking about the Awakeneds in their human bodies/forms, either)
The "high end" (strongest of them) we've seen was the (normal) yoma in the Rabona cathedral.
(Normal) Yomas are usually superior to most humans (exceptions: Cid, Galk, and Raki), but they can be killed by humans. However, there is little in the humans' favor besides numbers (using a group; group tactics). (Normal) Yomas are just too fast and too strong for (almost all) humans to kill, especially in a 1v1 match. This isn't even addressing their inhuman aiblities/powers, nor the "high end" (normal) yoma which we've seen in the Rabona cathedral, whom was too superior for even Cid+Galk (and almost +Clare, at that time).
3A. (Normal) Claymores
Claymores are "super yomas". They vastly range in superiority/power, from (arguably initial) Clare and Clarice, to Teresa and Priscilla. Even the "low end" (weakest) Claymores, (arguably initial) Clare and Clarice, are superior to (normal) yomas (though they have to really strain/use lots of their power/high yoki release). There are Claymores whom are killed by (normal) yomas, but usually this happens from their final test/trial as trainees, "weeding out" the "failed" (too weak) Claymores. Claymores can also use much more of their inhuman abilities and powers, than can (normal) yomas, due to their still human minds. However, as they use more power (release more yoki), even their minds can Awaken (get taken over by their yoma side), which is what is known as Awakening, causing/changing Claymores into Awakeneds (or Half Awakens, if their human mind "survives" the attempted take over by their yoma side).
So, being that Claymores are superior to (normal) yomas and (normal) yomas are superior to humans, Claymores are vastly superior to humans (with the only exception being of Cid/Galk/Raki vs Clarice). Even (arguably) initial Clare was far superior to Cid+Galk. Unfortunately, we don't know how Raki compares to Cid and Galk. Clarice in terms of superiority (speed, strength, reaction time, and etc) is superior to Cid, Galk, and Raki, however she (often) displays a lack of combat proficiency (such as getting her sword stuck in a tree or wall).
Even Clarice has the strength to cut into a tree or wall, but we've yet (as far as I can remember or am aware of) to see Raki or Galk (excluding Cid because he isn't big and strong like Galk and Raki) cut into a tree or wall.
Claymores (at least Clarice due to her often lack of combat proficiency) can be kill by humans. Also, Claymores aren't allowed to kill humans, as well. But, excluding Clarice or "such a situation", it is highly unlikely for a human to ever kill a Claymore. Humans almost never are abe to kill (normal) yomas, and Claymores are even more dangerous/superior than (normal) yomas.
(*under construction*. Unfinished. Got too tired. Taking a break. Will finish up... if the edit function/button lasts... lol)
3B. Half Awakens
3C. Abyss Feeders/Abyss Eaters/”Demons"
3D. “Infected Hosts”
4A. (Normal) Awakeneds
4B. Abyssal Ones
4C. Abyss Feeders/Abyss Eaters/”Demons"
4E. “Infected Hosts”
4F. The Destroyer
X. The Black Coats of the Organization
You didn't finished this topic HegemonKhan, and We have some new facts after Raki kills Yoma in his home town.
First of all:
Priscilla did killed Her father, who turns in Yoma, and She spoked about this to Teresa, when She was about to awake. She told, that She loved Her papa, and then She kill him stabbing in the back, when He eats Her sisters guts. So surprised Yoma was killed by a little, despaired child. Like surprised Teresa was killed by Priscilla. So the point is, when You fight or eat, do not get distracted :PQuote:
Second:We now know, that Raki killed Yoma with broad sword, He hits directly in head, buuum, game over. But He was not able to sense Yoma, and he asked Priscilla witch one it is. Everybody in the manga knows true look of awakened Yoma, but than for humans in mostly cases it is a last picture in their life. Then they are eaten. So For humans, even group of villagers armed with basic "Country Weapon" shouldn't be a problem to kill single Yoma, when they only was able to point which one of them it is.Quote:
But the problem is, that They can not.
Remember scene with bandits? Chief had Falcon Sword, and He yelled in His overconfidence: "Yoma or humans it does not matter, this sword can cut through everything" (not exactly quoted). But than He told: "But We did not know, which one of them Was Yoma. Then He ended cuted on pieces True Faint Smile
And to summary: If Org threaten by Humans use for defense Claymores? Or created by them Yomas? As they attacked Rabona? So Destroying Org is the only way to annihilate all Yomas from the island. But for this Humans need Claymores, the only one able to sense it in basic humanoid form and then kill it in 1 on 1 fight, or even many against one Claymore.
Have a nice evening
Last edited by colonywars; March 11, 2011 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Bandits :)
Outline of entities
Here's a schematic showing which categories are subsets of others (correct where needed). I wasn't able to indent here, so please forgive the underlining:
1. Humans (Lucky, Gerke, Sid, Boss, Rig)
2. Dragons' Allies (Louvre?)
____Descendants of the Dragon
____Council (Chief Klimt)
____Men-in-Black (Louvre, Hermitage, Prado, Orsay)
____Retrieval Unit (Dae)
______Common Yoma ("Zaki")
________Flying Yoma (rare, may simply be a variant of Common Yoma)
________Claymore (warriors implanted with Common Yoma tissue: Clare, Teresa, Irene, etc)
__________Awakened Being (awakened Claymores: Agatha, Rigardo, Duff)
____________Abyss Feeder (warriors implanted with Awakened Being tissue)
____________Abyssal One (awakened No. 1s: Isley, Riffle, Luciela)
______________Destroyer (awakened Luciela-Rafaela)
__________________Infected Hosts (Duff, Lucky)
Not too sure how to classify half-awakened Claymore warriors (Miria, Jean, Deneuve, Helen, Clare). Some would put Priscilla and Dae's project into the Abyssal One category.
What humans can do
The first thing is cut off financial support for the Org (obviously easier said than done, in the grand "protection racket" scheme of things).
Since the Org may be weeks/months sailing distance from the mainland, they need funds to run the local operation, including making more Yoma. How humans protect/defend themselves in the meantime is the problem.
One problem fighting Awakened Beings is that humans lack the swords needed. The swords were speculated by Miria as being designed to fight Descendants of the Dragon. And originating on the mainland.
Common Yoma appears to be venerable to "home-grown" weapons, presenting less of a challenge. Flying Yoma may be too rare to generally worry about.
Although humans cannot detect Yoma like Claymore warriors, it may be possible to reduce the Common Yoma population through gradual attrition warfare.
What humans probably can't do
While some warriors like Miata can kill Yoma with their bare hands, most warriors are much weaker than even Common Yoma. But they're trained in tactics to bring down even Awakened Beings. An analogy would be a group of cavemen bringing down a mammoth.
The tactics of hunting parties may derived from fighting Dragons on the mainland. While Claymore swords aren't available (unless salvaged), humans could be at least trained by rebel warriors.
Even if these swords were available and humans trained like Claymores, there are questions whether humans could take down Awakened Beings. Humans may have to depend on surviving warriors to control the Awakened Being population.
Abyss Feeders might be controlled by Claymore warriors though attrition warfare only if there's no Org to replace the Feeders.
Abyssal Ones may be impossible, even for Claymores, to eliminate.
Destroyer, Parasitic Rods/Hellcats, Infected Hosts: status currently unknown (at least to me!)
Dragons on the island present a remote, but not impossible danger. Their abilities are currently unknown.
The Empire strikes back
What about the parent power behind the Org?
No matter how the Org fares on the island, the overseas power behind them assumedly still needs a weapon against the Dragons. So a testing ground is still needed. Even if a human-Claymore alliance destroys the current Org, the unnamed foreign power may return, possibly with a bigger military force. And retaliate.
We shouldn't expect our foreign power to remain passive.
All the above is speculation!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 12, 2011 at 11:43 PM.
I am a bit confused. It seems as though some of the BCs can sense yoki though they feign otherwise. In Clare's "graduation" battle, the BC seems to be able to sense the death of the 8 trainees and comments that " I told them is would be like a real battle, didn't they listen?" There are other examples but I don't recall them exactly. ( I just finished with the 4 Extra scenes so my memory is fresh) So, either some of the BCs are not human or they are humans that can sense yoki. Of course they didn't cotton on to Miria's being alive so maybe these are just plot holes.
they're powerful enough to be able to control NYs (forcing them to test the Trainees; a.k.a. to knowingly to do so, knowing it will eventually get killed by a trainee, like seen by Trainee Clare, and to Raze towns that don't pay as seen there was NYs along with the "shock troop" male human Awakeneds in their attack on Rabona), and their bodies are very non-human like with all of their scars/injuries/leather straps-bandages, their strange/abnormal clothing and intelligence/knowledge/technology (compared to the normal human townsfolk), and their Claymore/Yoma like bulging veins....
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 29, 2011 at 12:27 AM.
I would think that with proper training, humans could take out NYs once they were revealed. It may take a team effort, but Cid and Gauk proved that they could hold their own against Agatha at least for awhile anyway. So with that said, humans vs NY=doable.
Humans vs AB's, maybe, with group tactics and even then probably only the weaker ABs.
Humans vs AOs=no way.
Humans vs Hellcats, etc, = no way, unless you're Raki and have an AB/AO as a friend.
Just my thoughts anyway.
Last edited by rcfalcon; March 29, 2011 at 11:38 PM. Reason: Spelling