Why was it ok for Shikamaru to get revenge?

[hakuthehedgehog]

From what we've seen, Sasuke would have had no objection to spending a couple of years training and doing so didn't really change his personality all that much.

Wouldn't spending his life training to take down a missing nin be excellent training to eventually become a hunter nin, Which was basically what he was acting as?

Hunter-nins act for the Hokage and for their village.
Sasuke was just thinking about himself and his revenge, nothing else.
Also, after training with Orochimaru, Sasuke didn't hesitate in using chidori in Naruto's chest.
Also, Sasuke could be so obsessed with his revenge that he could hurt a comrade in trying to acomplish it, like he did with Karin.

[hakuthehedgehog]

So in this case Kakashi is the authority that decides who can and cannot seek revenge? Hmm and here i was under the crazy impression that revenge, any and all, is a bad thing which people should stay clear of. Oh silly me.

I never said Kakashi was the authority over who decides who can or can't get renvenge.
It was ok for Shikamaru to get his revenge because he wasn't obsessed with it, and wouldn't hurt his comrades in order to get, plus he had actually the chance to have it before it consumed him, and he had other reasons to live.

Sasuke's a very different matter: being obsessed with revenge, he actually attacked a teamate that ha almost sacrificed his life to save him because he thought he wasn't progressing fast enough: that was how messed up he was.
If Sasuke continued obsessing with getting revenge, he could hurt his comrades, and even if he achieved it, he wouldn't have any reason to live anymore, his life would be worthless to him.

[zerocooldx]

I never said Kakashi was the authority over who decides who can or can't get renvenge.
It was ok for Shikamaru to get his revenge because he wasn't obsessed with it, and wouldn't hurt his comrades in order to get, plus he had actually the chance to have it before it consumed him, and he had other reasons to live.

Sasuke's a very different matter: being obsessed with revenge, he actually attacked a teamate that ha almost sacrificed his life to save him because he thought he wasn't progressing fast enough: that was how messed up he was.
If Sasuke continued obsessing with getting revenge, he could hurt his comrades, and even if he achieved it, he wouldn't have any reason to live anymore, his life would be worthless to him.

So it seems that the underlying message of the recent posts seems to be "As long as you aren't clearly obsessed with revenge, and just want to get revenge as a one time thing and don't hurt those closest to you, then you get the thumbs up to murder away in the name of revenge." Glad thats cleared up.

[RandomShikafan]

From what we've seen, Sasuke would have had no objection to spending a couple of years training and doing so didn't really change his personality all that much.

Wouldn't spending his life training to take down a missing nin be excellent training to eventually become a hunter nin, Which was basically what he was acting as?

Sasuke wanted to restore the Uchiha Clan. Hunter Nin and ANBU would be steps in the opposite direction.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Sasuke wanted to restore the Uchiha Clan. Hunter Nin and ANBU would be steps in the opposite direction.

I think Sasuke forgot he wanted to restore the Uchiha clan, IIRC, he said that if he could kill Itachi, he would gladly accept death.

[jdw]

So it seems that the underlying message of the recent posts seems to be "As long as you aren't clearly obsessed with revenge, and just want to get revenge as a one time thing and don't hurt those closest to you, then you get the thumbs up to murder away in the name of revenge." Glad thats cleared up.

Hm, this doesn't quite seem like the message. more than anything it seems to be that obsession with revenge is dangerous, and perhaps it is best to help prevent obsession before it takes hold instead of just wishing it away.

[M3J]

There i no real difference between when Kakashi told Sasuke to stop chasing after revenge, Itachi, because it would consume him then when Kakashi assisted Shikamaru in getting his revenge on Hidan. At the time Sasuke knew of nothing other then the fact that Itachi was the responsible party. So there is no need to bring in anything past that point in the manga. And here is Shikamaru who was allowed to do as he pleases. Which is quite the double standard isn't it? Kakashi couldn't assist Sasuke in hunting down Itachi, a Konoha shinobi who murdered numerous Konoha shinobi. Yet he does the exact opposite for Shikamaru and hunts down a none Konoha shinobi who killed only one Konoha shinobi. Oh you've got to love Kishi's employment of double standards.

Sasuke spent his life seeking revenge though, he was desperate for it. Kakashi knew that if Sasuke took revenge on one, he might take revenge on more. And perhaps Kakashi knew or guessed some bits of about the truth behind the Uchiha massacre. Kakashi knew Shikamaru wouldn't be obsessed with revenge, and that there was actually a point to killing Hidan, who posed a great threat. Itachi apparently looked like he could be stopped, and Shikamaru was probably ready for it or knew him well enough to stop him.
And as mentioned, Kakashi probably learned his lesson beforehand with Sasuke. We saw Shikamaru intent on getting revenge, and Kakashi himself acknowledged Shikamaru wouldn't stop just because he was given orders not to go; like with Sasuke, Shikamaru and his team would have gone out to take out Hidan. Kakashi, by going, could at least keep an eye on the team and help them out, keep them safer than they'd be without a jounin. I think Kakashi's mind was, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" since we know SHikamaru wouldn't have rested without being the one to finish Hidan.

What is there more to learn when saying that revenge will leave you empty and lead you to more sorrow and tragedy? Isn't that a rather factual and accurate statement? Kakashi himself says he has seen guys, multiple people, who have gone down that path and it didn't turn out good for them. So does that mean that Kakashi threw away that experience and knowledge later on? Because he clearly ignores his own prior experience and knowledge by helping Shikamaru. But that can't be the case because very recently Kakashi tells Sasuke to abandon his quest for revenge. Oh and be sure to very careful take note of when Kakashi tells Sasuke "I hate having to repeat myself" and whens the last time Kakashi talked to Sasuke? Oh thats right, it was when he tied him up and gave him the revenge speech. So does this then mean that Kakashi believes that only getting a certain kind of revenge is ok? And if thats the case, then oh thats even better then a double standard.

Sasuke has stated how bent on revenge he was against one man. Shikamaru wasn't as bent on revenge, though he did want revenge. The difference was, Shikamaru was going about it calmly and rationally, whereas Sasuke kept being reckless.

There are two different situations for both Shikamaru and Sasuke, and both have different personalities. And Kakashi letting one take revenge and one being forbidden probably has something to do with learning his mistakes.
I do think Kakashi was gonna help Sasuke get strong enough to beat Itachi though, which was the main point of putting him as Sasuke's sensei.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Zero, on your point of view, what exactly is justified revenge?

[zerocooldx]

Zero, on your point of view, what exactly is justified revenge?

Revenge is wrong, always and in every way. Sure it's something that can certainly be understandable but it is wrong to seek out. It is the epitome of people taking the law into their own hands for selfish reasons. So if people here advocate taking the law into ones hands, of course only under "ideal" circumstances, then thats fine. But keep in mind that you are talking about the "best" way to do the wrong thing, which regardless of the circumstances will always be wrong. If you allow one person to seek revenge, a bad thing, under certain conditions, even the "best" of conditions, others will unquestionably follow. Revenge breeds nothing but anger, hatred, greed, jealousy, etc. Thus anarchy and chaos will erupt. There is a rather good reason as to why societies that allow people to take the law into their own hands, even under "ideal" conditions, don't last very long. Which is why Kishi is clearly playing with a double standard here by allowing a bad thing, revenge, to happen yet eliminating the prolonged results of that act. Things don't work like that. It was wrong for Shikamaru just was wrong as it is for Sasuke, understandable but clearly wrong.

[Rikudou King]

We know Itachi was a sole exception. And we later found out just how special the circumstances for that were. It had little do with succeeding Fugaku.

Well, Only the best was put into the police force. Still, We're getting off my main point, Which was that regardless of the path Sasuke choose, He possessed enough skills from his quest for revenge to be plenty useful to a village once his desire for revenge was over.

[RandomShikafan]

Still kinda off point. There's the whole point of how the village could plausibly believe that Sasuke could kill Itachi for them and after encouraging such revenge (and keep in mind that nothing that even a captain of ANBU like Kakashi is capable of was of any use against Itachi), Sasuke hasn't decided that taking Orochimaru up on his offer is the only way of defeating Itachi first.

[$nipe]

I think Shikamaru was a more mature person, and his superiors knew that. I mean, it was a matter of revenge out of saving the honor of his sensei who died in battle. Sasuke could've been in a similar situation, but he had mental issues that had already been noticed, not to mention the fact that Sasuke he was too young at the time to put things into context.

[M3J]

How does this relate to the topic?

[3c]

I guess no one saw this post?

How does this relate to the topic?

Keep this to discussing why it was ok for Shikamaru to get revenge. We've so far allowed for Sasuke's quest being brought into the topic as a comparison. But don't abuse the allowance. Discussing Shikamaru's fight with Hidan, how Hidan was in pain etc has nothing to do with the thread's topic.

[RandomShikafan]

Shikamaru's ability to take on Hidan has nothing to do with whether he should be allowed to take on Hidan. Sure, that makes PERFECT sense.

Baseline, if Rikudou King is right that Shikamaru's revenge was clouding his judgement into taking Hidan into dark place where he could hide him away whereas sending any chuunin with half brain and mid range ninjutsu after them would have surely resulted in Kakuzu's assassination and Hidan's detached head being brought in for questioning then no, Shikamaru's revenge should not have been ok. If I'm right, and Shikamaru was the perfect choice for this then by neccesity Shikamaru's revenge should be allowed. If talking about whether Shikamaru's plans were sound within the reasonable limits of what could be expected of Kakuzu's abilities is off limits then close the topic. There'd be no point.