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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
idk but, as for good solid proof, the fact that his body hasn't been found and that he still has Grave of Maria with him makes me think that he's still alive out there, somewhere...
As for whether or not he's become one of the fallen (i think that's what you were getting at...? :'D) i don't think he has...? I mean, accommodators become one of the fallen when they've "betrayed the innocence/God" right? But does abandoning Judgment really qualify as that? Then again, we don't yet know how someone with an equipment type innocence would even become one of the fallen, so..
I hope that answered your questions! ;v;
I concur, you raise good points which I hadn't thought of. Given that Grave of Maria is missing along with Cross and our knowledge of GoM's power I'd say it is fairly safe to assume that Cross is alive, He may even have used GoM to reprogram Judgement like he does the Akuma, thus explaining Hevlaska's belied that Judgement has lost it's accommodater. Also we have seen something similar to this, when Kanda left Mugen behind and it became rusted. Perhaps innocence needs to be within a certain distance of it's accommodator or it will start to look for another compatible.
Back to Cross's age though, I think Cross is in some way responsible for Allen's current age situation, we know that Cross and Neah knew each other 35 years ago, Cross knows the ancient magic, he probably used some sort of anti aging spell on himself and reverse aging on Allen. Plus Anita's mother supposedly fell in love with Cross at first sight, which was before Anita was 15 since Anita's mother died then. I don't know how old Anita was by the time she died but I would guess she is more than 25 years old. I'd say Cross is maybe 70 years old. IMO Cross needs his own arc, explaining his circumstances, but I guess that will come soon with Neah on his way.
Exactly. Grave of Maria's power to conceal is definitely 90% of the reason i still think Cross is lurking around somewhere. However, I don't know if it was her power that somehow made him no longer Judgment's accommodator...i don't think it's powers work like that...though with what little that we know about the innnocence, i suppose anything is possible there, even innocence altering other innocence...
but i'm more inclined to think that perhaps it was just distance, and Judgment simply didn't recognize him as it's accommodator because he was too far away? but then, if that's the case, you have to wonder how he managed to get so far away quickly enough for Judgment not to be his innocence any longer when it was found in the morning...
About Cross's age, I'd also say he's getting up there in the numbers; at the very least he's in his late fifties. Him being such a large part in Neah's plot and the events that took place 35 years ago proves that much. But, as for him being in some way responsible for Allen's current age...i don't think so, seeing as when he first encountered Allen as "Red" he didn't recognize him as the man called "Allen" from 35 years ago, and, if he'd been somehow involved in his "de-aging" (unless it was something that happened gradually and he was outside of Cross's radar while it was occuring) wouldn't he?
idk just my thoughts...
Last edited by RandomCuteOtaku; February 28, 2013 at 04:53 PM.
Good point, if Cross was involve with Allen from 35 years ago and he knew Allen was host to the 14th's memories then surely he would have kept an eye on Allen instead of Mana. Although Nea did say that he would return to Mana one day which is how Cross knew Allen was the 14th's host.
As for Cross recognising Allen, I don't think Allen was called "Allen" 35 years ago, since Allen got his name from Mana's dog after it died when Allen was still known as "Red". (this name situation is confusing enough).
Hmm, I kinda wonder about Cross' relationship with Neah 35 years ago, was he Neah's student? After all Cross knows the ancient magic, he had to learn it from somewhere, and I just figured he'd been using his knowledge of the magic to keep himself young. I thought he might have used it on "Allen" in an attempt to hide and protect him.
Maybe Allen grew young just from becoming a host for the 14th (since he was not naturally chosen to be a host there might be some sort of catch).
Back to Cross' age, I Have to agree with you, anywhere from 55 up would seem to be a safe guess, otherwise Cross would have been too young to have a strong connection to Neah.
Ugh, my thoughts are so damn jumbled, I keep remembering more things as I type so I can't seem to keep a straight line of thought here.
Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I tend to jump right into conversation. Hope that's okay. ^_^;
BTW regarding Allen: I think the most likely circumstance is that we're dealing with an Allen who either suddenly or gradually became younger, somewhere during that 35 years. Nea does recognize him by name both in 198 and 215, after all. IMO the bit from "Lost Fragment of Snow" in which Mana babbles some crazy talk () about his own age could be relevant to this. I've seen theories that either accepting Nea's memories or being synced to an Innocence caused past Allen to become younger. I lean toward it being an "overnight" thing, like with Mana. Becoming younger could simply erase his memories from before. (Alternatively, if it was the Innocence that made him younger, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Apocryphos who erased his memories of being the host for a Noah-- and maybe even synced him with his Innocence in the first place at some point after Nea died, when no one else would've been around to know about it.) But I find it significant that Cross, in the novel, bothers to ask Red if he's Allen. That he'd even consider the possibility that a little 8-year-old boy could be "Allen." BTW personally I like to think that maybe the dog was named after Past Allen, and then Red got his name *back* because of it. :>
As for Nea recognising Allen, Nea has slowly been awakening since Kanda stabbed Allen in Paris, I had assumed that Nea was aware enough during the time between the Paris incident and the Alma Karma Arc to get some basic info on Allen, or maybe he just knows certain things about his host, like an instinct. Of course you make a good point and you may well be right. I find it a bit odd however, in 198 that Neah says Allen with quotation marks, "Allen". To me this sounds almost as though Neah is simply humoring Allen's new identity (having trouble expressing this sentiment, it's so clear in my head but to put it into coherent sentences is difficult).
Now that you remind me of it, Mana becoming older and Allen becoming younger, seems like too much of a coincidence. perhaps Mana had to have time taken from him in order to make Allen younger, a trade off in years I suppose you could say, although Cross does say that Mana went insane after Neah died, so he might simply have memory lapses, it will be interesting to find out which for sure. I'm more inclined to the memory lapse theory, after all, Mana was a young adult when Neah died 35 years ago, and when Allen met him he was an old man, Mana's age and the the amount of time that has passed seems to be consistent, rendering my previous thought moot.
As I recall from the novel, Cross asked Red if he's "Allen," and then Red was confused and didn't say anything. Then he said "I don't mean the dog." It would have been very clever if he was making a cynical joke about Red being like the dog like you mentioned, but that's not how the novel chapter reads. (At least, not the translation I saw.) I'm pretty sure in DGM chapter 204-ish (the flashback right before he's "killed"), Cross tells Apo that "Allen" wasn't his name sooner and that he "should have realized the mistake sooner." That mistake should be that he should have realized that Red was "Allen" sooner, I would think.
The name reclamation is just a hunch of mine, but I think it fits nicely.
Yes, it's very suspicious that not only Nea but even Mana in Allen's own post-apocalyptic (and strangely modern) dream in 183? calls him "Allen" (with the quotation marks) once. In the dream, it then becomes "AOOO" or "A****" after that depending on the translation. I always think that dream-Mana should really be referring to Nea (since the brothers thing is what Allen was angsting about), but then why the "A" at the start? The dream even specifically ends with young Allen (but with white hair and scar) asking Mana to call him Allen. However in chapter 215, Nea definitely talks about Allen with familiarity, and I don't recall him saying it with the quotation marks anymore, even though he should be calling him by the name he always knew him by. Nea is saddened his "friend" has now become an enemy, right? So I think Nea in 198 was more getting at "Allen" being a "mad doll" (or "puppet") just like the Earl rather than a real, whole person.
I feel the same way about the Mana becoming older and Allen younger thing. But Crown Clown is predicted to become a "destroyer of time," so I wonder if that could have something to do with it. It's a bizarre coincidence that one thinks he suddenly aged and the other *definitely* somehow became younger.
Anyway sorry for the tangent, folks. I just haven't got much to go on when it comes to Cross' age & I just wanted to talk about those couple of things.
ok, so y'all both seem to be totally down for the idea of Allen somehow de-aging over (or abruptly, some time during) approximately 35 years and then suddenly stopping and starting to age again, and i know this is kinda off topic but, why do you think that would be a necessity for "older Allen"? Like, why would he decide (or his innocence decide, i dunno which theory you prefer there) to make him younger and then suddenly decide to make him older? And how is it related to Neah?
because, i know that the timeline in this manga is absolutely, for want of a better word, fucked up, but i honestly can't say that i agree too much with that theory, simply because it leaves way too many plot holes open as it is...?
I dunno i'm just curious to hear someone's take on it...because I've seen the theory floating around for awhile, and it does give an explanation for the older!Allen and how he supposedly became younger, but I don't see how/why that would happen
I just think for the time being it makes sense to accept the "testimony" (even I don't want to call it actual evidence, lol) that points to Allen being one person and having gotten younger for some reason. When Hoshino rolls out something that actively counters the idea (as opposed to it just looking unlikely because of the messed up timeline), I'll drop it at that point.
IF it turns out they're not the same person though (even though Nea recognizes him), then I would guess the elderly collaborator with the 14th that the Order has in their custody (and which everyone has probably either forgotten about or never knew about due to an inaccurate translation) might be Older!Allen (except I think if he aged normally, Older!Allen should only be middle aged at this point and not elderly). You can see the ONLY reference to this person (by Lvellie, who's speaking to Komui) in the same chapter where Allen meets Howard Link (sorry I forgot the number). Alternatively, it could be a "puppet" of Allen like Nea referenced in 198 being a "mad puppet" (or "doll") like the Earl. Why would there be a puppet of Allen? Good question I do know some reasons but I'd probably have to explain it in a separate thread I'm thinking of starting about the Earl.
I agree the timeline looks pretty fucked up right now, and it certainly does seem to create plot holes but how's this for one: You know Allen's dream in 184? Why are there modern skyscrapers and traffic lights (the few that existed back then only had two lights, not three, I've been told) in the Victorian era? Hoshino is hinting time is really going to get messed up at some point.
But hey, if Cross can freeze his own age (because even if only a little, that's what it looks like to me xD), then why not have Allen reverse his?
I thought this scene between Cross and Apo was basically Cross confirming that Allen is the 14th. I don't know the full implication behind it yet so i'll try to keep an open mind. But Cross saying, "When we first met, he didn't introduce himself as Allen, should have realised the mistake sooner" (this isn't a direct quote, just off memory) I thought Cross meant that he hadn't realised Allen didn't introduce himself as "Allen", but you are right, Cross might have thought that Allen wasn't past "Allen" (that hasn't been confirmed as his past name so i'll use it sparingly for now) because he didn't introduce himself as "allen", but that would also imply that Cross at the very least knew about past "Allen" and that he would be the one carrying the 14th's memory.Quote:
I'm starting to think myself into circles again so i'll try to keep the rest of this as brief as possible.
I'm leaning towards the theory that being implanted with the memory of the noah, (instead of born with it like the rest are) might have something to do with it. Implanting a person to become the next host seems to be an unnatural selection of the next Noah and might require the mental processing of a child in order for it to work. That said, Allen's de-aging could also have been an attempt to hide Allen from the Noah while he protects Nea's memories, thus sparking my theory that Cross is an all powerful time wizard. However Kannazuki pointing out Hevlaska's perdiction has a point. Being predicted as the destroyer of time, perhaps Crown Clown really does have more to do with this than we first thought. But that also brings up the Apo theory which seems a bit flawed. Why would Apo implant a noah with innocence and reverse their age? The moment Allen showed signs of noahfication, apo just tried to absorb him anyway.Quote:
I'm definately up for debating this, but right now my head is spinning so i'll finish there for now. Thanks RandomCuteOtaku and Kannazuki. Thought provoking points you brought up.
Regarding the "OOO" and "*****" thing, I checked two different Japanese blogs. They transcribe it slightly differently but the content is the same:
boku wa "OOO" ja nai yo.Quote:
aren te, chanto yonde yo.
"I'm not 'OOO!' It's Allen, just call me that!"
I figured "O" would be the more accurate one since it's typical to blank/omit information in Japanese by using "O" in its place. So anyway it doesn't *seem* that he's saying "I'm not Nea," because that's only two characters in Japanese: ネア. I had that sliver of doubt because it *seems* like whatever he's telling Mana not to call him is apparently three characters long. "Allen" (アレン) is three characters long incidentally, so it may be that she simply stopped at blanking his name out one character at a time. It's a strange choice if she did that though, because it's not like she had to hide Nea's name any further than blanking it out. No one was going to guess what it was from "OO." And she does have it as 『アレ●』 and 『ア●●』before finally getting to "OOO." Might as well drop one more and go to "OO."
I've always thought Cross knew about the past "Allen" but that he just didn't know what he would look like (at least, not in the present). But I based that on the lines from the novel chapter and figured that it was just further confirmed for him in 206 where he says this was the person who appeared before Mana.
@RandomCuteOtaku: For now (since we have so little to go on), I don't think that Allen made an active decision to become younger. I think it was either forced on him (either the innocence or the side effect of the transfer of Noah memories in a way different from how all the other Noah did it). If you really really want to get out there, I have seen some people speculate that past!Allen was the former Bookman apprentice we've heard about being "lost" before. Being a Bookman could have something to do with it too. If I run with that for just a second, Bookman memory "powers" could interfere with Noah memory so they might have wanted to find a way to erase it. It's not something I really believe in but I thought I'd just bring that in to round things out some more. Only thing I'd say for it is just that it would add some nice connections between Allen and Lavi much like Kanda's past life/rebirth thing is kind of similar to what happened to Allen (who, as I said, I am accepting is the same "person" throughout, as per the 14th's impressions, until we learn otherwise).
Last edited by kannazuki; March 12, 2013 at 07:25 AM.
they never really say but i imagine mid to late thirtys or early 40s
Well he made a promise with Nea 35 years ago so he has to be older than that. xD
He would have had to have known about the war and Noah already at the time. Also, he was apparently a member of the Black Order Science Department before he became an exorcist... and even he probably didn't go straight from science guy to General. He was also with Anita's mom well before Anita grew up. I expect they both would have had to be relatively young while he was with them, being courtesans and all. Anita is 27 at her time of death. So I think most people consider him at *least* 50 years old. Some readers think he might be preserving himself using sorcery, meaning he'd be much older than that...
hmm, I actually have a theory but it has absolutely no basis. I remember General Yeager and the exorcist that destroyed his akuma student. I wonder if that was actually Cross, as we have seen the innocence does tend to change shape over time as the accomodator's power grows, and the innocence used to destroy the student was a bow. I'm having trouble putting this into words but basically, I wonder if that was General Cross that destroyed Yeager's student all those years ago, and his innocence has been remade into a gun since then. It would create an interesting relationship between Cross and Yeager.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your theory. General Yeager became an exorcist because an akuma killed his students. If you mean the akuma that took the form of one of his students, if Yeager didn't use it himself, then it wasn't his innocence. Yet more importantly, what would the purpose of this be, story-wise?
BTW For a while now, I've had a side theory of a small partnership of some sort between Cross and General Klaud (maybe also Tiedoll). Well, more of a hunch, really, since there's nothing much to base it on. But I can't shake the weirdness of their little meeting sipping wine together shortly before he died-- even though she appears to dislike him, and he surely has to be incriminating to associate with. (I'd really like to think she helped him fake his death, or at least that he gave her some important coded information before the death he knew would come.) *edit* Also, it's an interesting coincidence that she had a past as a circus trainer, considering Allen's background. Cross was physically present at the Order (or at least met up with Klaud) after he took in Allen Walker too.
Last edited by kannazuki; April 17, 2013 at 09:03 AM.