Nen

[kkck]

Characters in HxH can use more than one group- they just aren't as good in them.

Erza would be materialization though, not manipulation.

Erza does not materialize her swords herself, she summons them from a separate space and moves them around. That's all manipulation.

[Tombadgerlock]

Erza does not materialize her swords herself, she summons them from a separate space and moves them around. That's all manipulation.

Yeah, except that 'summoning' really looks like materialization (the same way Kurapika materialize his chain or Shizuku her hoover), especially as there is a void space that materialization user have access to in HxH.

Also, manipulation is extremely limited to familiarity, while materialization, once you can create the object, doesn't quite have the same problem.

[Shinichiro]

Yeah, except that 'summoning' really looks like materialization (the same way Kurapika materialize his chain or Shizuku her hoover), especially as there is a void space that materialization user have access to in HxH.

Also, manipulation is extremely limited to familiarity, while materialization, once you can create the object, doesn't quite have the same problem.

Perhaps it's materialization with the condition set that she must actually own any item and keep it in that one big room in order to materialize it? That would effectively grant her a void space catalogue. And possibly with the condition that breaking the materialized one will break the original--I can't recall her using the same set of armor after it's been destroyed.

Though I would still posit that Erza herself is a reinforcement user. This is because her fighting style, no matter what armor equipped, is based around physical strength, speed, and defense. If she is reinforcement, she has 60% as much potential in the materialization/manipulation fields. As such, she's perfectly capable of simple and easy feats. Her weapon equips don't do anything themselves, so they seem like VERY easy materializations (or manipulations)--especially once you consider the conditions on them.

So yes, primarily a reinforcement ability who uses some materialization/manipulation techniques to further boost her firepower.

[kkck]

Materialization means making a real object out of nen. Basically, you make something that did not previously existed. Erza's sword existed previously, they were not made by her power so they cannot plausibly be any form of materialization. Using your power to make things move or give them special traits, basically manipulate them, is the very definition of manipulation.

[Shinichiro]

Materialization means making a real object out of nen. Basically, you make something that did not previously existed. Erza's sword existed previously, they were not made by her power so they cannot plausibly be any form of materialization. Using your power to make things move or give them special traits, basically manipulate them, is the very definition of manipulation.

Does it ever specifically say that the weapons and armor that she summons are the exact same ones that she keeps in her armory? I don't actually remember myself. If so, then it's manipulation. If not, it could be a hybrid materialization/manipulation, as she might materialize copies of the items she already has (the condition) and then manipulates them/reinforces.

[kkck]

The manga made it pretty clear erza did not create nor copied her weapons, they were stored in a different space for later use. The weapons are literally summoned and there is not so much as a shred of evidence that anything other than that happens.

[Tombadgerlock]

The manga made it pretty clear erza did not create nor copied her weapons, they were stored in a different space for later use. The weapons are literally summoned and there is not so much as a shred of evidence that anything other than that happens.

That indeed, but i meant it as a system- what she does is 'summon' weapons and armors that boost her stats and give her abilties.

That is Materialization.

Now, i agree that the fact that she is using actual weapons that were made long ago means it is different, but weapons like that couldn't exist without nen anyway in HxH-verse (the magic is different), so it doesn't really matter.

[kkck]

That cannot plausibly be that. Materialization necessarily must come with her making stuff with her power. How can she be a materialization if she is not materializing anything? Materialization means to literally and to the full extent of the word to make something out of nen. An object not made out of nen is not the result of materialization. Erza NEVER made her swords, they were NEVER just a bunch of random energy. Hell, the manga has gone as far as to show who exactly FORGED the swords (that kreuts guy). The "summoning" a materialization user has is literally to make something which did not exist previously appear out of thin air. If the object in question existed previously independently from the user then it is no materialization. Under your logic, I could simply pick stuff out of a drawer and claim I materialized it. I get the impression you are simply joking, there is no way you can actually be serious.

[Shinichiro]

That cannot plausibly be that. Materialization necessarily must come with her making stuff with her power. How can she be a materialization if she is not materializing anything? Materialization means to literally and to the full extent of the word to make something out of nen. An object not made out of nen is not the result of materialization. Erza NEVER made her swords, they were NEVER just a bunch of random energy. Hell, the manga has gone as far as to show who exactly FORGED the swords (that kreuts guy). The "summoning" a materialization user has is literally to make something which did not exist previously appear out of thin air. If the object in question existed previously independently from the user then it is no materialization. Under your logic, I could simply pick stuff out of a drawer and claim I materialized it. I get the impression you are simply joking, there is no way you can actually be serious.

While I'd certainly agree that your explanation is probably the route that Erza took, there's absolutely nothing explicitly laid out that precludes our theories. And there's nothing to say ours isn't another way of achieving an identical goal.

Nen's flexible like that. There are many ways to go about an objective depending on how you divide your skills and factor in the pledge/condition.

As for certain comments, like this here below:

Under your logic, I could simply pick stuff out of a drawer and claim I materialized it.

Not at all. You might want to seriously reread what we're writing. I kind of suspect you've got some serious bias filters going on that's causing you to reduce our theories--which make sense with what we know of nen--to pathetic strawman versions...

The manga made it pretty clear erza did not create nor copied her weapons, they were stored in a different space for later use. The weapons are literally summoned and there is not so much as a shred of evidence that anything other than that happens.

I...don't really see much evidence that has to be the way things happen myself. That said, I'm not willing to go back and comb every Erza-related Fairy Tail panel to confirm, so I might be missing something. But there are many plausible ways that one could use nen to essentially materialize an armory from subspace based on actual weapons. It'd take a bit more creativity than out-and-out item warping/teleportation, but it's definitely possible. Once again, nen is flexible. And some aspects are a wee bit nebulous as is, unfortunately...

[Tombadgerlock]

My point was that as the weapons themselves would *need* to be materialization items (or else they would be simple armor, and don't produce the boosts Erza has with them), in HxH-verse it would be materialization.

Basically, even if Erza of Fairy tail-verse summon previously existing items, in HxH-verse those items can't exist, so Erza, to have the same ability, would need to Materialize them.

Manipulation would need her to use long-distance emission + teleportation (emission) plus a tiny bit of manipulation to pinpoint the items, and then wear them... but it would still be normal armors and weapons. No need for anyone to do such a thing.

See my point?

[Carbonseed]

am I right to think the quality modification of any object has to do with re-inforcement AND transformation ?

lets say I want to make something give me strenght. then I have to use transformation and put my nen into the object with the intention of strenghtning user ? if I want to make this effect more powerful than just my 100% transformation then I'd have to use re-inforcement.

would that sound right ?

its a bit old in my memory but... whats the specific purpose of manipulation ?
I was thinking the fact that Kurapica chain "moves" according to his will IS manipulation... or maybe even needle facial reconstruction from Illumi involves manipulation ? (any other example ?)

the effect of restraining nen on members of the spider would be mostly manipulation (forcing a behavior on something else (forcing zetsu)) ?

transformation is transforming the nature of things ? change aura into bungeegum ? change aura affected thing into something else ?

[Tombadgerlock]

Transformation is giving special proprieties to Aura. It usually doesn't influence objects much.

Reinforcement reinfoce/improve whatever you are using it on.

Manipulation manipulate living and inert matters, including people's emotions and so on.

Materialization create objects, and if you are strong, give them special abilities (vacuum cleaner, Kaito's scythe, and so on).

[kkck]

am I right to think the quality modification of any object has to do with re-inforcement AND transformation ?

lets say I want to make something give me strenght. then I have to use transformation and put my nen into the object with the intention of strenghtning user ? if I want to make this effect more powerful than just my 100% transformation then I'd have to use re-inforcement.

would that sound right ?

its a bit old in my memory but... whats the specific purpose of manipulation ?
I was thinking the fact that Kurapica chain "moves" according to his will IS manipulation... or maybe even needle facial reconstruction from Illumi involves manipulation ? (any other example ?)

the effect of restraining nen on members of the spider would be mostly manipulation (forcing a behavior on something else (forcing zetsu)) ?

transformation is transforming the nature of things ? change aura into bungeegum ? change aura affected thing into something else ?

There might be elements of those two but it is not necessarily the case. Giving objects special powers has more to do with the conditions and pledges you make. If it was really closely related to other actual nen classes then they would never really be powerful abilities considering the nen types involved would could never reach 100% efficacy. Take the ryodan girl who uses the vacum and kurapica. Kurapica has a number of abilities with his chain, a number of them which are related directly to nen types and a number which are just random abilities. For instance, he can use his not very efficient reinforcement to heal -he does boost it with his specialization nen though. On the other hand, his other chain uses dowsing which has nothing to do with a nen type, it is just a random ability. Shizuki can materialize her vacuum at any point but the vacuum's ability has nothing to do with any specific nen type.

[Tombadgerlock]

There might be elements of those two but it is not necessarily the case. Giving objects special powers has more to do with the conditions and pledges you make. If it was really closely related to other actual nen classes then they would never really be powerful abilities considering the nen types involved would could never reach 100% efficacy. Take the ryodan girl who uses the vacum and kurapica. Kurapica has a number of abilities with his chain, a number of them which are related directly to nen types and a number which are just random abilities. For instance, he can use his not very efficient reinforcement to heal -he does boost it with his specialization nen though. On the other hand, his other chain uses dowsing which has nothing to do with a nen type, it is just a random ability. Shizuki can materialize her vacuum at any point but the vacuum's ability has nothing to do with any specific nen type.

That's quite false.

Restriction doesn't seem to give special power, it just improves on what you can do to incredible degrees.

Shizuku's vaccuum is also a staple of Materialization, though high-level all use the void-space in different ways.

One doesn't need restriction to give special power to materialized objects- for example, the dousing chain doesn't have any restriction.

[kkck]

http://www.onemanga.com/Hunter_X_Hunter/83/10/

Materialization users can only create thing within the confines of what already exists, they can't make things better than the best of it. In that sense, when they create objects they are never beyond what is conventional. On the other hand, materialization users can give things characteristics beyond average or impossible for normal chains but only if they give up something. To some extent, of all kurapicas techniques MUST have a number of limitations. For instance, I doubt the dousing technique would work to trace any conceivable object, known and inknown persons within an infinite radius. Perhaps the ability does not come directly from the rules but rather the person but in turn without a number of rules and limitations for it using an ability would be borderline impossible or simply far too useless. There might also be elements of other nen types but given the conditions to use nen, not having a pledge would mean being limited more than severely. Even if the materialization user indeed mastered all other nen categories to the utmost extreme under normal circumstances the technique would never display more than overwhelmingly mediocre power. Take gensuru, he had materialization, manipulation and emission in his technique but in turn he had quite complicated rules for it.