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huh? so he didn't explain himself, is that what you meant? 'cause I don't see any "you" or second person view in that statement. tense means a verb's context in time, like live, living, to live, lived, etc.. so could you elaborate? If you like. I was half asleep when I wrote that the other day. I could agree, you were too. so forgive me, if I sounded obnoxious?
either way, I personally would object 'cause Yue's artifact is only a mahora academy library database, not london's academy library database (which has much much more)*
*where negi studied before moving to jp. of course this is reader opinion. And its erring in context and text.
no problem, he was just being hypothetical, i didnt understand why he used that as a reason he wanted to pick yue's over nodoka's. i mean unless ur the one that brainwashed and controlled society, i still think nodoka's would be useful.
i personally think that the more practical an artifact is the better it is. I mean its cool to be able to be destroy buildings and level mountains, but in actuality what part of this is useful to someone like me, i mean maybe if I was part of a mercenary or something that required it. but for me, I'd rather have one that i could use everyday, i mean especially with the bookmark and earpiece add on, u dont even have to take it out to read someone's mind.
the reason over yue's is because yue's is a magical encyclopedia, so nothing about normal things, only stuff about magic, useful, but i'd be afraid to overuse it, and reveal magic or something.
that being said, using nodoka's would probably make me sick and twisted and distrustful of people, but i guess as long as no one knows, right?
I agree that Nodoka's artifact would probably have more long-term value than Yue's, and the encyclopaedia's value depends on how much you already know about magic. Still, if I knew nothing or little of magic and my purpose was to increase my influence on society, I would go with Yue's artifact to get a boost in magical knowledge.
Last edited by Giriath; March 18, 2011 at 10:27 AM.
OH, so you want to influence society through the use of magic. Believing magic can influence individual's spontaneous wills at the whim of a breath. To achieve such an influence you would need people that believe in your ideals of how a society should be influenced or "run" by, because forcing an ideal on individuals who by even a fraction of disagreement would ruin the crystallization/adoption of that influencing factor. But of course I am speaking in the macro scale of a society, and I am also assuming you intend to place an influence that may contradict the ideal of society's goal by even a small portion. I may be wrong, but you must remember how chaotic could be the the slight radical change of mental strings individuals have in the nanoseconds humans processes decisions. So please take that into consideration if my assumptions are correct or not.
hehehehe, this is getting to be a fun discussion.
*It was observed that on some Hominidaen societies deception for hiding food from the families has occurred by one of family members, even on camera. Makes you think twice about our "genuine intrinsic" ability to abstractly plan something to achieve a short term personal goal, eh?
Last edited by bebuxe; March 20, 2011 at 02:17 PM. Reason: more info, right?
which begs the question, can u hide information about something or someone, when the only thing u can think about is what ur hiding?
Last edited by BluFlaim; March 20, 2011 at 07:51 PM.
In my case, I engineered myself to think and always say why to everything. So when I would be asked the question I would also say (semi automatically) "why [...]?" [...] would mean as I am processing what was asked, rely the message so I would say "Why do you need to know?" Yeah, I would sound like a B, but its how I engineered my mind. But of course this is the first thing that would come to my head as a response, then I would read the situation with my moral banks of memory (or the frontal lobe) and make a decision from there. Naturally if the person was a stranger, i would say, "And why would you need to know that?" If it was a familiar, I would say, "but you already know." If I was impelled to say it, I would say, "bebuxe." (IOW, I would really say it)
that's why I am assuming so much, it also depends on the morals that have been implement in the society per quota, what you call generally etiquette. More than likely in mahora universe people of Nihon would just say it, and nicely. Where I am from, how cares what your name is, just get the (&*% of my way! you get the point? Its hard, really hard to control a society by the power of just one person to read at random almost everyone at the same time to search for irregularities in thinking to prevent a disaster from a manipulated macro society.
posting, adding more info later, if necessary.
Last edited by bebuxe; March 20, 2011 at 09:01 PM. Reason: grammar and info for kids
if this is the case, and nodoka can only read the top layer of someone's thoughts and nothing beyond that, then I have sorely underestimated the artifact's ability to get names. but i still have doubts about that though, because as of yet we havent seen her fail at getting someone's name even when they know about what not to do. and about the actually book, she can definitely probe deeper because we've seen her use it on shirabe when she told her to give a complete ordered explanation of who she was and her abilities and such. obviously no one would actually think in that order and way, so at some point she does pick up the subconscious response to do that. also we've seen her use it to probe her own mind when she wasn't quite sure what to think about her and yue both being with negi.
before you continue, the artifact does not read anyone's mind if a name is not told. The name is the intrinsic name of the individual. That means, if many people call someone by a name, but that is not the name written to the soul and heart, the artifact will not work. More than likely, that name will be adopted by individual in question from their master (like parents naming their children). It is that mere acceptance to that name that children do at an early age that makes that name be written to their soul.
What Nodoka has been using to know their names is a devil item (forgot name) that by invoking the command "Show me your name!", the devil item will write for her the name of the soul she points at with intention. I dunno if its written holographic-ally that any one could read it, or that its user's eye only. But with that name she can relay the name to the book, and it will display all the conscience of the person (not the subconsciousness) as its being thought. She also applied two other rare items to her book, a rare bookmark, that reads the book, and an earpiece that somehow connects to the bookmark and "speaks" what the bookmark reads. So she can have streaming words from the book being spoken to her ear as the conscience of the person exhorts and it being written into the book.
and no, the artifact can't read the subconsciousness, only the things that get to the conscience. More than likely, un-programmed humans will translate all the mental neurons strings being accessed to the conscience (thalamus) and the mere referencing of that data as its being translated into the local grammar keys will easily be evoked by the conscience. it has nothing to do with delving into the subconsciousness. Remember there are lots of programs running in the mind before anything could be translated into any readable language output in the conscience. Think of reading memory from the stdout in ram of a computer, that's what the artifact reads, not all the other memory devices in the motherboard.*
She read her own mind, to read what is she honestly thinking about her relationships, unclouded by the many contradictions one makes after other moral strings are being accessed, in a stream like fashion. It tells nothing of things that are at the vertebrae, the frontal lobe, thalamus, etc..
how about this, the world is full of water, only this one pond is the conscience of one person. whatever manner it takes for any of the bodies of water to get to this pond, only the water in this pond is drank. that's what her artifact reads/drinks: that pond, the stream of the conscience, what many call the mind.
*computer metaphor bias, right?
Last edited by bebuxe; March 21, 2011 at 06:36 PM. Reason: grammar for lolz, 2nd person bull
about the artifact, it seems that even using a nickname works as shes used it before when the bounty hunters attacked her
about shirabe, im still unsure about y this affects it. so ur saying that nodoka wouldnt have gotten that information? because im sure nodoka wouldnt have tried if she already knew how her artifact already worked. i mean seriously who goes and thinks "oh miss nodoka here has asked me for my profile in a neat orderly fashion, i better think about this and make it neat enough for her to read". im sure nodoka can scrape a little deeper than just the surface. because honestly my first reaction would be 'why' and thats clearly not what nodoka's artifact is going to bring out. about fate, i can see her failing there because he isnt human, he hasnt even understood the concept of enjoying something yet. but i think her artifact can scrape past the language output of her consciousness.
okay, then I'll give a little more credit and say it translates the momentous emotive strings in the conscience as its being processed.
the nickname thing, if its true..., then it clearly contradicts the description of the artifact in the beginning of the manga.
shirabi thing, as the questions are being processed on the conscience like in "what is she saying?" un-programmed beings (ok, i took out the word "humans", happy?) the mind will reference that data in its memory into the ram (conscience, i will use this from now on) as is relates to the question. then are moral banks accessed. she read that initial answer her subconsciousness brought into the ram. And the book fleshed it out into readable language.
fate, well it is a doll going on an open string memory that allows him to finally develop concepts of emotions, and retort to use them for decision making. (one good example of an individuals thoughts going erratic from manipulation by the new decisions it made from the open string). So nodoka interpreted those thoughts that they were trying to develop feelings as a decision maker. And i believe the key was trust, or "go on with them".
Last edited by bebuxe; March 21, 2011 at 07:14 PM.
mmm if I'm not mistaken... when Nodoka used her artifact against canis niger, she used names that the ring thingy showed her... so those should be true names... who knows what naming conventions of MW are like... so you can't judge by that star mark.. =)
also you don't know how that substitution technique works ... if it creates mind, imports memories of target and names it ... then name of original should be working... I suspect that in case of person with multiple personalities.. different names would be needed to read mind of each personality... and as Nodoka's artifakt has limited range... I'd think that it automatically picks the one that is within it's range when trying to read... after all... it is quite common for two people to have same name =)
thats an interesting concept. maybe that since nodoka knows or will know lunas name soon that she can read her mind regardless of the personality she put up?
Moi je prendrai l'artefact de Natsumi