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View Poll Results: Kuroro vs Hisoka

Voters
80. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kuroro

    38 47.50%
  • Hisoka

    42 52.50%
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Thread: Kuroro vs Hisoka

  1. #76
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    Somehow all your post reminded me the time when Meleoron started to think to become invisible and got taken out in a split second.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  2. #77
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    Somehow all your post reminded me the time when Meleoron started to think to become invisible and got taken out in a split second.
    Well in the martial arts genre there's this concept of 'the faster guy always win' and HXH is heavily influenced by the martial arts genre, and speed is undoubtedly tied to Reinforcement.

    I mean really, what can you do if the other guy can hit you before you can even think about hitting back? Even at the human level, prime Netero's speed is well above the fastest charge time for Hatsu, which means he has no fear of any Hatsu no matter what they are. Speed eliminates Hatsu (you can hit them out of the Hatsu or at least knock them far enough away) and of course if you got no Hatsus, Reinforcement will always win in a straight up fight.

    That said Hisoka and most characters are more like move-countermove type characters. That is, suppose they're playing a game of rock-paper-scissors they'd obviously go through thinking 'If I did this then he did that but if I do this and that then I totally win!" On the other hand someone like Kuroro is likely to come up with a solution of 'stab the guy with a poison knife and win by default' in the same game, and a Reinforcement user serious about winning would just use 'the bomb' which beats rock, paper, and scissors. If you look at Netero/Uber Gon's style of attack -> knockback -> repeat, that's virtually uncounterable. Actually, you can see a lot about how a character fights on whether their physical attacks does knockback or not. For example, Hisoka's attack pretty much does no knockback whatsoever. You can argue the Bungee Gum is a move that prevent knockback and it goes both ways (he can pull the opponent in but the opponent can pull him in too). This is because he's a move-countermove guy and enjoys in figuring out the right moves to win, as opposed to having an unstoppable strategy. Kuroro, on the other hand, is clearly more interested in winning if not just survival so he has no qualms using cheap tactics. In fact, if one is truly interested in survival in HXH, one should just load up on poisoned weapons and start throwing gas grenades (while wearing a gas mask) but that'd also be incredibly lame if everyone did that.

  3. #78
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post

    It's not just ranged status abilities are rare. They're clearly impossible in HXH, and if someone happens to be able to do the impossible you can't possibly be prepared for that, just like nobody assumes an enemy starts with an ability like Emperor Time to begin with, otherwise you might as well surrender before the fight even started.
    Potclean. Basho's poetry (attack me and get set on fire). They don't even have to be long ranged. They don't even have to be instantly fatal. Just getting screwed in some unexpected way is bad enough. Keep in mind this is a world where people possess strange ass abilities such as being able to transform into a goddamn motorcycle that sucks up its rider's nen for fuel. And Jaguar guy (run faster than me in my world space or lose: or something like that, I don't remember).

    Quote Quote:
    Silva praised the quality of the knife for being able to hurt him, not the quality of the user, which implies anybody with such a weapon could hurt him. Any status effect that can be made with an item affected by aura can pretty much be effectively duplicated by a poisoned weapon. For example Shalunark surmised one way to defeat Ubogin would be to have a chain that causes slumber on touch. They got weapons that do that just fine using modern medicine in the Hunter Exam. Note that 'on touch' almost certainly doesn't mean 'just touching the item without any other qualified condition', because you might as well call that deathtouch in the world of HXH given falling into a slumber would almost certainly cause you to get immediately killed. The 'on touch' qualifier usually implies the same item can inflict damage. We see plenty of characters carrying poison around them and the opponent has to be wounded for them to apply poison. For example the mosquito Ant tried to use poison on Killua to no effect, but the fact that the mosquito could inject poison implies she can at least penetrate Killua's skin, and that can be considered as 'wounded'. So with the qualifier of 'on touch' and 'inflict damage', that pretty much covers things like the paralyzing darts/arrows used in the 4th round of Hunter Exam, and that's already sufficient to kill anyone who isn't immune to it. Yes a weak character using a paralyzing dart will probably just see the dart bounce off, but a weak conjured object would also bounce off. Kurapika's master said in terms of the strength of the object you're pretty much looking at legendary weapon as the limit of what Materialization can do without considering restrictions, and legendary weapons are clearly strong enough to harm any human being, so if your goal is simply to create a potent object you might as well just invest in a legendary weapon.
    Anybody with a knife can cut Silva/Uvogin? Guys like Uvo can tank a bazooka rocket. You think somebody channeling a little nen through a knife can hurt him? If you can only possibly be better off by a substantial amount by using poison, then why doesn't everybody use poison? The Zoldycks being specialists would be the first in line for a cheap, easy and effective way of doing somebody in but not a single one of them utilize poison. Either this is a plot hole (likely) or Nen battles are generally so deadly it doesn't matter (failure to protect yourself from a nen based attack = obliteration of a limb at the very least).

    Quote Quote:
    Netero is the strongest HXH character 50 years ago, and the flashback implies he didn't even need to use anything beyond his physical speed/body (there were no statues in his flashbacks) and he's a Reinforcement user. In the aerial scrimmage between Pitou and Netero it is a classic example of why special abilities are irrelevent against someone who is strong/fast enough. Pitou requires only 0.1s to charge his special ability (Kurapika's Chain Jail requires 0.5s) but Netero can hit him and knock him away in under that time. Netero has no idea what special ability Pitou has either but it doesn't matter because he knows he can knock Pitou far enough away so that the ability doesn't even matter. Either the abilty doesn't resolve because Pitou was hit out of the charging motion, or if it somehow resolved anyway Pitou would be too far away to do anything useful. When Netero is younger he can probably do this straight up using his physical speed. Reinforcement is not just strength. It's also speed (stronger body = faster speed, Uber Gon is so fast that Pitou can't even see his movements at all) and recovery.

    Netero's move isn't actually all that specular. It's basically something that hits you very fast and very hard with a relatively weak requirement (it's not even clear another human being can tell Netero is actually praying, which means the liability of this move is very little versus human opponents. Yes the Ants can see that he's praying but they're obviously way beyond human beings in physical prowess). And at 50% of his prime it's not clear if anybody who is commonly in discussion for 'most powerful HXH character' can even do anything about a move that is basically just punching you very fast repeatedly. Certainly you can rule out any special move given Netero's base speed is > Pitou's 0.1s charge which is presumably much, much faster than any human would need to charge up a meaningful special move.
    Well first, you have already assumed that somebody who can move faster than his opponent can react will win against his opponent. This is obviously true but why assume that every reinforcement user is 10000x faster than guys of other nen disciplines? Truth is there are plenty of fast guys Hisoka, Knuckle, Feitan and so on, all of which aren't reinforcement. In fact, Uvo is pretty darn slow despite being monstrously strong. No doubt powerful guys are fast but you can't just generalize. But let's assume reinforcement guys are faster and stronger. The question is then: by how much? Your assertion is only valid if every reinforcement user moves at Meryem speed. But they don't. A level 10 conjurer isn't utterly helpless against a level 10 reinforcement user. Kuroro was doing fine against Zeno AND Silva, who is reinforcement and Kuroro is at least at a similar level to Zeno. So unless Silva is utterly shit him being able to keep up doesn't make much sense. Add to that the fact that good ole' Netero conjuring/emitting is death-dealing statue is further proof that you can be seriously screwed by other disciplines dishing out pure physical damage (a forte of reinforcement users). Uvo getting pushed into a corner by Injyuu - being completely unable to hit Dog.

  4. #79
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    It's not that they're helpless, or so it is what I believe, it's that they're as Wing said the ones who doesn't need any special stuff because they're balanced between Offense and Defense. Reinforcements users also die and not everyone starts with the same gauge of aura, physical abilities and Nen proficiency. But they have the lead when it comes some stuff.

    Obviously if you have a Conjurer with better proficiency at Nen (Like Kurapika versus Uvogin, in which the first focused his technique solely for the Spiders) the result will be always the same.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  5. #80
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    It's not that they're helpless, or so it is what I believe, it's that they're as Wing said the ones who doesn't need any special stuff because they're balanced between Offense and Defense. Reinforcements users also die and not everyone starts with the same gauge of aura, physical abilities and Nen proficiency. But they have the lead when it comes some stuff.

    Obviously if you have a Conjurer with better proficiency at Nen (Like Kurapika versus Uvogin, in which the first focused his technique solely for the Spiders) the result will be always the same.
    If a Reinforcement user of Ubogin's calibur applies the same restrictions as Chain Jail he can definitely break Chain Jail from the outside (can't do it from inside due to Zetsu).

    It's because Reinforcement starts with an overwhelming advantage in physical offense/defense that they generally have no need for dangerous restrictions on their techs, because they don't need to use them. The other schools, especially the ones that are far away from Reinforcement, need to take significant risks on their conditions to beat Reinforcement. But the risk still exists. Take the surfing guy's ability that Leol used against Morel. That is a pretty strong ability that can neutralize any strength advantage, but only if it's raining AND you're fighting in an underground, enclosed space. If it's not raining the ability won't work outright. If you're not underground, all the Reinforcement user has to do is punch a hole in the wall and the ability is effectively countered even if you started out in an enclosed room (and it's downright useless in open terrain, since the water it can conjure is limited).

    ---------- Post added December 31, 2012 at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was December 28, 2012 at 02:58 PM ----------

    I saw an interesting point from another board. Hisoka's prediction (the true one) says he's supposed to fight Kuroro in the second week with Kurapika's help, and there was nothing after that. This means he was supposed to have died by the time the third week comes around. Further, Kuroro's prediction mentions nothing about fighting Hisoka, which means this fight is obviously not anything dangerous to him.

    So unless Togashi just decided to not bother writing out the 3rd/4th line of Hisoka's prediction, that means Hisoka must have fought Kuroro and died, and it must have been a rather lopsided fight since it wasn't even mentioned in Kuroro's prediction.

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  7. #81
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner nommie's Avatar
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    I think it's not because Togashi is lazy. Shizuku and Shalnark's predictions are shown despite them never become true. I do think IF Hisoka fought Chrollo during York Shin, he'd lose. But if he's fighting Chrollo now the result might be different since Chrollo was unable to develop his nen abilities during Ant Arc-Election Arc while Hisoka keep improving his.

  8. #82
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Kuroro vs Hisoka

    I am pretty sure Chrollo is able to fight now,maybe they haven't fought yet because of what you said.
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