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Thread: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

  1. #1231
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    It's hilarious that every other report I've seen about it mentions that he still hasn't won a World Cup. I wonder if that will always hang over his head.
    It basically is. If he retires tomorrow he will go down as one of the greatest to ever pick up a football, that will never change. The only thing from stopping him being unanimously being named the greatest (which honestly outside of the WC his record deserves) is the world cup. His record, in a time when everyone was thinking the general increase in quality of opposition as well as how physical the game has gotten will never produce a player scoring at the levels we seen in the sixties or seventies, and he has defied all that to produce a level of play that deserves every single platitute it gets. 86 goals in a calender season is ridiculous. Utterly and completely ridiculous. The 73 he scored last season did not get the jaw dropping amazement it deserved. This will probably not either. His brilliance sometimes is taken for granted, personally I think bar a maradona-esque breakdown (which seems unlikely), he will go down as the greatest ever. He is the Pele of our generation but it only needs one world cup to cement it for everyone.

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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Not every great player has won a WC. It's true that quite a lot of them have, but plenty haven't. Even if you can score goals, if the players behind you can't defend and leak goals like a sieve, it's not your fault if you can't bring a victory home for your country.
    Of course, it's common sense. But the reality is, until and if he wins one, it will always be brought up when the topic of "best ever" happens.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Imperium's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    Soccer is a varsity sport in every high school in the country for the most part. So that has been done, and while it isn't unpopular, it isn't enough. Everyone plays soccer if you're into athletics, it reaches the height of it's popularity around high school, maintains it a bit in college, depending on the program, but after that it falls off the cliff unless you're in an avid market, like Seattle.
    Yes, but my point in the next paragraph was basically varsity is already too late for developing footballers. It has to be done earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    What do you think? Do you think not sending off Sunderland's player in the first minute was the right decision? It meant that there was still everything to play for instead of instantly handing the match to Chelsea.

    In today's match, in the first minute, Hazard was clean through, but was yanked back off the ball (and then Mignolet slide tackled him), but Bardsley wasn't called for any foul. It would've been a professional foul and a penalty, so the match would've been ended immediately and then Chelsea would've racked up a rugby score. It was pretty clearly a professional foul, but the referee Halsey made the decision not to award anything. It really seemed as if he didn't want to just end a match in the first minute. Perhaps there's a new mandate not to bring matches down to 11v10, which a lot of the matches this season have ended up as, I'm not sure, but it was a very odd decision by Halsey.

    Moreover, there were a bunch of very cynical stamps and kicks from the Sunderland players on our AMs which went largely unpunished. Mata had his ankle stood on and then was kicked in the leg, but not even a foul was given either time. I think there was a kick on Oscar which was called for a yellow, but there were just some shockingly awful decisions by Halsey. Gardner picked up a yellow and committed a foul deserving of a second yellow, but Halsey did not want to send anyone off. I think that there's a problem when a ref doesn't want to make match-changing decisions, even if they are warranted. Halsey did rightly award a penalty when Ramires was tackled from behind and completely upended, so he wasn't all wrong.

    My feelings on questionable refereeing weren't helped when Howard Webb bought into Cazorla's dive and awarded Arsenal a penalty, which Arteta converted.

    What are all of your thoughts on this matter?
    I havent watched the Chelsea game, I might check the highlights now though. The one by Cazorla was a dive. It was quite interesting because Wenger didnt go with the "I didnt see it" excuse but actually said he will check it and have words with Cazorla if its true. A small difference but really significant. He knows he is guilty.

  4. #1234
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    Of course, it's common sense. But the reality is, until and if he wins one, it will always be brought up when the topic of "best ever" happens.
    Yeah, until that time, people will say players like Muller and Pele are better, and even though Zidane wasn't a goalscorer, he was amazing on all levels of competition. Goalscoring isn't the only thing that makes you the best ever, but I think we all know [although some guys won't accept it until he wins a WC as you said (just like with the LeBron thing, even though Michael was a better player)] that Messi is the best player in history. He isn't far and away better than anyone else who has ever played, but he's a touch above, maybe not a huge touch, but a touch is enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium View Post
    Yes, but my point in the next paragraph was basically varsity is already too late for developing footballers. It has to be done earlier.
    Of course it does, but football's just not a focus in America, and until it can finally become one, that won't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium View Post
    I havent watched the Chelsea game, I might check the highlights now though. The one by Cazorla was a dive. It was quite interesting because Wenger didnt go with the "I didnt see it" excuse but actually said he will check it and have words with Cazorla if its true. A small difference but really significant. He knows he is guilty.
    It wasn't a slide tackle from behind or anything, so it's not as if it was the most blatant professional foul that you'll ever see, but a denial of a goalscoring opportunity is a denial of a goalscoring opportunity, and therefore it was a red card and a penalty. Hazard was pulled off the ball by the CB when he was clean through and that's a professional foul. Halsey clearly didn't want to end the match in the first minute, so he didn't give it, but it's not as if he didn't see it.

    I was also quite annoyed that he seemed to not see our AMs getting kicked/stomped on.

    Yeah, everyone except Howard Webb (and even he knows now) that it was a dive. I actually respected the fact that Wenger didn't pull the, "I didn't see it" or the "there was a lot of contact" and said that "Cazorla said that he was touched," but that really meant that Wenger wasn't very happy with Cazorla. Sure, it got Arsenal a goal, but it wasn't the type of football that Wenger wants played.

    ---------- Post added December 10, 2012 at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was December 09, 2012 at 09:09 PM ----------

    On the same day that Messi hits two to break Muller's record, Falcao does three better by hitting five against lowly Deportivo la Coruna, and even though they're lowly, when Barca played them, it took two goals from Messi to win an awful defensive match 5-4.
    Last edited by FrostyMouse; December 09, 2012 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #1235
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium View Post
    It basically is. If he retires tomorrow he will go down as one of the greatest to ever pick up a football, that will never change. The only thing from stopping him being unanimously being named the greatest (which honestly outside of the WC his record deserves) is the world cup. His record, in a time when everyone was thinking the general increase in quality of opposition as well as how physical the game has gotten will never produce a player scoring at the levels we seen in the sixties or seventies, and he has defied all that to produce a level of play that deserves every single platitute it gets. 86 goals in a calender season is ridiculous. Utterly and completely ridiculous. The 73 he scored last season did not get the jaw dropping amazement it deserved. This will probably not either. His brilliance sometimes is taken for granted, personally I think bar a maradona-esque breakdown (which seems unlikely), he will go down as the greatest ever. He is the Pele of our generation but it only needs one world cup to cement it for everyone.
    He's the best ever. Don't talk about Maradona, don't talk about Pelé; I'm here to talk about Messi.

    I, as an Argentinian, got mad at him every time he played with our selection because he wasn't as good as in Barcelona (we were like ¨he only scores because he has Iniesta and Xavi¨) and he just shut our mouths the last 2 years. He's awesome in Barcelona, he's awesome in Argentina. He has been the best player (without a single doubt, Ronaldo is just a midget compared to him) in the last 5 or 6 years, a whole era (and I don't think any other player made that before).

    He's playing in modern football days (not Pelé's days, were 6-2 was a normal score and regular formations included 4 strikers) and yet, everytime you watch him play, you know he'll score. You know he has something hidden. His team might be losing the match and BUM, Messi explodes the ball in half a second and the match is over.
    I never was a Messi fan before (and I still think I'm not), but come on, not a single person can be compared to him in terms of football, he's simply a beast.

    Maradona was amazing, yes, but his highlight was the 86' and no one remembers anything besides that.

    Pelé? He played in the 60's, a complete different game (and there are barely enough videos to know how good he was).

    And don't say ¨He won't be the best until he wins a World Cup¨ because that's BS, that's not something he can win alone. Cruyff didn't need a WC to be the legend he is, neither did Van Basten nor Baggio (and the list goes on). In fact, if Messi wasn't Argentinian (if he was, I don't know, American or Japanese for example) no one would give a F@CK about him not winning a World Cup.

    I'm glad that I'm able to see him play, as no one will ever be as good as him (unless we start mating with aliens). There won't be another Messi, and that's actually a bit sad. We should just enjoy watching him do his thing.

    Messi is the best football player in this Galaxy's history. Period.

    Last edited by Hardy; December 10, 2012 at 02:45 AM.

  6. #1236
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Hardy, as great as Messi has been, and I admit that he's the best player in history, if I had to pick one player throughout history for one decisive match, I'd pick Zidane over Messi nine times out of 10. The one thing that I think detracts from Messi is that a lot of his goals and accomplishments have come against far inferior teams. On the biggest stages, Messi just hasn't always performed and if I need one player to get it done for me, I'll trust Zidane over Messi (even though Zidane's not a striker, he came up bigger than anyone else in the big matches), except on the two days in his career where people got under his skin with racial comments and he lost his head, the second time literally.

    Is that really something that you should be able to say about someone who you admit is the best player in history? If Messi had shown it on all stages at all times, I wouldn't have those doubts, but I do because he hasn't. One huge thing that I can point at in Messi's career is that he has not scored against Chelsea. In eight matches now, it just hasn't happened. Even with the best chance of his career, a penalty, he couldn't get it done last season and was a big part of Barca getting dumped out of the CL. I just think that the best player in history should not have that type of bogey side.

  7. #1237
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    if I had to pick one player throughout history for one decisive match, I'd pick Zidane over Messi nine times out of 10.
    Oh, I really like Zidane (in fact, he's the reason I always rooted more for Real Madrid rather than Barcelona), let's read what you are going to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    The one thing that I think detracts from Messi is that a lot of his goals and accomplishments have come against far inferior teams.
    Yeah, Like Real Madrid, Atlético Madrid, Arsenal, Manchester United, Milan, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    On the biggest stages, Messi just hasn't always performed
    No one EVER did, he's a football Messiah not a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    and if I need one player to get it done for me, I'll trust Zidane over Messi (even though Zidane's not a striker, he came up bigger than anyone else in the big matches), except on the two days in his career where people got under his skin with racial comments and he lost his head, the second time literally.
    Those 2 days were a little important don't you think? Do you think that if Messi had that chance (THAT WC FINAL) would do the same as Zidane? And I still don't know why you choose him over Messi, Zidane actually had a lot of matches were he couldn't do anything to help Madrid. Probably the best Zidane ever, the one that played in Juventus, barely do anything against River Plate when he played the Intercontinental Cup (less than a champions league final, but you get the point) And even lost 2 CL finals. And there are plenty more examples to call, I'll risk to say that they are way more than Messi's.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Is that really something that you should be able to say about someone who you admit is the best player in history? If Messi had shown it on all stages at all times, I wouldn't have those doubts, but I do because he hasn't. One huge thing that I can point at in Messi's career is that he has not scored against Chelsea. In eight matches now, it just hasn't happened. Even with the best chance of his career, a penalty, he couldn't get it done last season and was a big part of Barca getting dumped out of the CL. I just think that the best player in history should not have that type of bogey side.
    Ok, he misses a penalty andnow he sucks...

    What do you want him to do in that match? Chelsea had 11 players inside their goal, every single person criticized their play style and said ¨they might win this, but that won't last too much¨ and look how Chelsea is nowadays.

    2008/2009. Chelsea played awfully again.

    Messi has 3 people around him, he chokes, loses the ball and Barcelona is out...

    Wait no, this happened:



    2006/2007: Messi played so well that Chelsea fans and journalists got crazy and started topics like this:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ll/38837/.html

    And here you have the ratings of that match, also in The Sun:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ll/38836/.html

    And the other match... I don't remember it, sorry.

  8. #1238
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Hardy, I don't know if you were watching the same matches, but Messi was generally awful against Chelsea.

    In 08/09, Chelsea completely stifled Messi for the entire tie and made him look very average. A corrupt ref didn't give us four penalties and then one moment where Iniesta bends a magical ball that Cech's unsighted for gave the tie to Barca in like the 93rd minute.

    Last season, in the first match, at the Bridge, Messi gave away the ball poorly, which led to our goal. I'm not saying that it makes him a bad player at all, just that he's never struggled against one team that much.

    Hardy, I was referring to the 86 goals. How many of those goals came against good teams? It's an amazing record, something we never thought could be done (breaking Mueller's record), but the La Liga isn't always that competitive. Messi's not going to get as many goals in the Premier League or Serie A, for example. Some Bundesliga sides just capitulate and lose 5-2 or 7-0 a bunch of times per year, so there's a chance it could happen there.

    All I'm saying is that, while I admit that he's the best player in history, there are some gaping chinks in his armor.

  9. #1239
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    He's the best ever. Don't talk about Maradona, don't talk about Pelé; I'm here to talk about Messi.

    I, as an Argentinian, got mad at him every time he played with our selection because he wasn't as good as in Barcelona (we were like ¨he only scores because he has Iniesta and Xavi¨) and he just shut our mouths the last 2 years. He's awesome in Barcelona, he's awesome in Argentina. He has been the best player (without a single doubt, Ronaldo is just a midget compared to him) in the last 5 or 6 years, a whole era (and I don't think any other player made that before).

    He's playing in modern football days (not Pelé's days, were 6-2 was a normal score and regular formations included 4 strikers) and yet, everytime you watch him play, you know he'll score. You know he has something hidden. His team might be losing the match and BUM, Messi explodes the ball in half a second and the match is over.
    I never was a Messi fan before (and I still think I'm not), but come on, not a single person can be compared to him in terms of football, he's simply a beast.

    Maradona was amazing, yes, but his highlight was the 86' and no one remembers anything besides that.

    Pelé? He played in the 60's, a complete different game (and there are barely enough videos to know how good he was).

    And don't say ¨He won't be the best until he wins a World Cup¨ because that's BS, that's not something he can win alone. Cruyff didn't need a WC to be the legend he is, neither did Van Basten nor Baggio (and the list goes on). In fact, if Messi wasn't Argentinian (if he was, I don't know, American or Japanese for example) no one would give a F@CK about him not winning a World Cup.

    I'm glad that I'm able to see him play, as no one will ever be as good as him (unless we start mating with aliens). There won't be another Messi, and that's actually a bit sad. We should just enjoy watching him do his thing.

    Messi is the best football player in this Galaxy's history. Period.

    O.o

    Urm...When did I say he wasnt. My point was he can already be compared to Cruyff and Van basten but they are not considered the best players to play the game. The only two who have claim to that title has always been Pele and Maradona. Usually people go with the former, but whatever you say if Messi doesn't win a world cup that will always hang over his head. Those "rankings" no matter how arbitary they are, will always be skewed in the favour of those players who have football most famous and prestigious award. He doenst have to win it to be acknowledged as one of the greatest players, but he does if he wants to be as the greatest. If he cannot perform in 2014 or 2018 (maybe even 2022), then he will never topple those two.

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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Has he broken Raul's CL record yet?

    Until he does that, he's not the best in history

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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    What team does Raul play for now?! Or has he officially retired after Schalke!?


    All I got to say at present is...RVP.


    What an ending to a derby.

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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugzee View Post
    What team does Raul play for now?! Or has he officially retired after Schalke!?


    All I got to say at present is...RVP.


    What an ending to a derby.
    Raul now plays in the Qatar League for a team called Al Sadd and has six goals in 14 matches.

    Well, if Tevez didn't leave the wall, Nasri doesn't stick out a foot that deflects the ball after having hid behind the player next to him, and Hart doesn't sneak over to the wall side of the goal, even though he knows that RVP prefers to hit the ball to the keeper side of the goal, it wouldn't have happened. All three of those things needed to go right for RVP there.

    Are you really saying that RVP > Messi?
    Last edited by FrostyMouse; December 11, 2012 at 07:12 PM.

  13. #1243
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    I never said anything about Messi.

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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugzee View Post
    I never said anything about Messi.
    Well, the discussion lately in this thread had been completely about Messi, and I guess I misinterpreted your comment about RVP to not only be about the derby, but also about things in general.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: The Football/Soccer Thread v2

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Hardy, I don't know if you were watching the same matches, but Messi was generally awful against Chelsea.

    In 08/09, Chelsea completely stifled Messi for the entire tie and made him look very average. A corrupt ref didn't give us four penalties and then one moment where Iniesta bends a magical ball that Cech's unsighted for gave the tie to Barca in like the 93rd minute.

    Last season, in the first match, at the Bridge, Messi gave away the ball poorly, which led to our goal. I'm not saying that it makes him a bad player at all, just that he's never struggled against one team that much.

    Hardy, I was referring to the 86 goals. How many of those goals came against good teams? It's an amazing record, something we never thought could be done (breaking Mueller's record), but the La Liga isn't always that competitive. Messi's not going to get as many goals in the Premier League or Serie A, for example. Some Bundesliga sides just capitulate and lose 5-2 or 7-0 a bunch of times per year, so there's a chance it could happen there.

    All I'm saying is that, while I admit that he's the best player in history, there are some gaping chinks in his armor.
    Again, 08/09 match and the last one, both sucked as NOBODY played well, Chelsea had always 3 men over Messi in both matches and that's why he didn't play well. But 06/07 was a clear exception to that ¨rule¨ you are mentionng.

    And yes, I can agree that LFP isn't THAT competitive (and I'm pretty sure that Müller's Bundesliga wasn't either), but he scored goals to some important teams...

    http://www.clarin.com/deportes/goles...826117510.html

    Teams like Bilbao, both Madrids, Valencia, Milan, Uruguay, Brazil, Germany and many others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium View Post
    O.o

    Urm...When did I say he wasnt. My point was he can already be compared to Cruyff and Van basten but they are not considered the best players to play the game. The only two who have claim to that title has always been Pele and Maradona. Usually people go with the former, but whatever you say if Messi doesn't win a world cup that will always hang over his head. Those "rankings" no matter how arbitary they are, will always be skewed in the favour of those players who have football most famous and prestigious award. He doenst have to win it to be acknowledged as one of the greatest players, but he does if he wants to be as the greatest. If he cannot perform in 2014 or 2018 (maybe even 2022), then he will never topple those two.
    1st- Many people call Cruyff and Di Stéfano the best players ever...

    2nd- I still don't agree that he has to win a TEAM championship to be considered the best ever (again, if he was American or Japanese no one would say that).
    Last edited by Hardy; December 12, 2012 at 07:21 PM.

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