The Football/Soccer Thread v2

[Imperium]

^ I agree, the most he's going to do is sign two more players and neither will be big time. It seems he's almost done signing some french polish defender no one has heard of so it will probaly be a keeper next if anything (anything frankly is an improvement on Almunia). Im not too worried though, i think he'll buy.

I read this in the papers. Sergio Ramos on Ashley Cole going to Madrid: "When a player is the world's best in his position and doesn't play for Real Madrid, it's a waste". I wonder what he's doing in Madrid then? Arrogant twat. Whats with Spanish players and there amazing knack of just pissing you off? Arggh. I hope the Germans smash them.

[goldb]

No shit, He actually said? He can talk...

Did you guys hear about the crazy salary Yaya Toure is reported to be receiving? something close to £200, 000 a week. I wanna be his family member

[Imperium]

I heard, £55 million over 5 years! That can also rise if they are successful. He's a very good defensive midfielder but he's not pele he's not even the best in the world in his position! My mouth literally fell open when i heard...geez, whats the world coming too?

[goldb]

The world is coming to football , it's really annoying when I see all the salaries these dudes get. You know he's never played a full season at any of his previous clubs?? He's a good player but Man City got mugged.

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Now it's crazy time, because plenty of the players have unreasonable and unrealistic salaries. Especially when some big club wants a player his team makes him two or three times more expensive. This happens espesially with Real Madrid, Chealsy, Manchester City, because everyone knows that if this clubs want someone they doesn't think about the price.
Also not to loose players clubs try to raise their salaries.

[kkck]

I am not sure the amount of money the players are paid are an issue... Teams like barca, real madrid, manchester (city).... they all want to exceptional for their own teams so it makes perfect sense to pay a load of money. If I am the best player in the world, I'd very much like to make a salary worth the best player in the world. If I am an elite player then I would obviously want a salary worthy of an elite player. Of course, the love for the sport should not be forgotten but that is an overwhelmingly pathetic excuse to not pay good players high salaries. Players can love the sport just the same regardless of the amount of money they make but if they have a chance then it is perfectly logical they would love the sport and have $100'000.000 dollars than just love the sport and make $1'000.000....

[Imperium]

I am not sure the amount of money the players are paid are an issue... Teams like barca, real madrid, manchester (city).... they all want to exceptional for their own teams so it makes perfect sense to pay a load of money. If I am the best player in the world, I'd very much like to make a salary worth the best player in the world. If I am an elite player then I would obviously want a salary worthy of an elite player. Of course, the love for the sport should not be forgotten but that is an overwhelmingly pathetic excuse to not pay good players high salaries. Players can love the sport just the same regardless of the amount of money they make but if they have a chance then it is perfectly logical they would love the sport and have $100'000.000 dollars than just love the sport and make $1'000.000....

It is a problem because of the financial disparity and instability it causes in a league and in football in general. It inflates the market, creates inbalance and eventually can result in the collapse of footballing clubs. Most clubs in the world cannot afford the prices being paid, so they go into debt to pay and to stay competitive.

Take for example this Toure case, he's is a very good defensive midfielder. Easily within the top 10 in his position in the world, however City have made him the highest played player in one of the best leagues in the world. This is for a player who plays in a naturally unappealing position, is not even the best in it and is not a "star player". He gets paid more than the real "star players" like Robinho, Tevez, Rooney, Fabregas, Drogba, Torres etc. How should other clubs compete? They have to increase the salaries of their star players (and even the ones that are not exactly stars for example Mascherano who can be said to be better than Toure and plays in the same position, could rightly ask for more money as his contemporary is getting more) and this puts these clubs into debt. There is not a single big club left in England or Spain (who have the two best leagues) that is not in debt of some sort (excluding the sugar daddy clubs).

The smaller clubs will have to do the same because it is a knock-on effect. The midtable clubs to try and reach the higher clubs will increase wages and transfer fees, the relegation threatened clubs to try and reach midtable and avoid relegation will increase wages and transfer fees, the lower league clubs etc. Its the same with star players and your average squad players, its a knock on effect. The higher payers get paid more, so the lower paid players will want to get paid more. And this is only when we talk about wages.

Look at transfer prices. Ever since Chelsea came into the scene in 04/05 the transfer prices on average have steadily increased every season. Before while it was rare for a someone to pay more than £20mil and only happened on a handful occasions. It steadily became more and more common, till now people hardly bat an eyelid when 27million is paid for a DM. A DM! 10 years ago it would have been a shock if someone splashed out more than 8million on a DM. Now that City and Madrid have joined the stupidity its gotten worse. Since last summer when Madrid went loco, prices went even higher. Barcelona went and splashed 40million + eto'o for Ibrahimovic and 25 million for a Chygrynskiy (the sold him this summer, he was there for 1 year). They would not have even considered doing that if Madrid had not inflated the market. Its was a byproduct of Madrids dealings. They felt they had to compete.

Its not a question of whether the players love the game or not, or whether they deserve the salaries they're getting payed. Its simply whats good for football and whats not. And right now, its not. High salaries and high transfer prices are the principal reasons that both the la liga and premier league have a combined debot of 6 billion pounds (9.5 us dollars). That is ridiculous and staggering and is something that is not good for the game and you can bet that most of that money was spent on transfers and wages. Few clubs in both leagues have actually built/ modified new stadiums or training grounds. In the premier league i think the only club thats debt is due to building a new stadium is Arsenal.

I dont mean to sound preachy, but this season already Portsmouth in the Premier league had to go into administration. In the la liga after getting into europe and coming 5th the same happened to Mallorca. Both because of debt, and in portsmouth case specifically because of a massive wage bill. Right now almost every club is living beyond its means just to stay competitive. Football is in a big bubble thats going to collapse soon and the fault can be laid at the door of clubs who are inflating the transfer market and wage structures.


Edit: wow, a bit tooo long. In short City = Bad

[kkck]

CLubs going into debt is not necessarily a bad thing. Quite frankly, it is a very natural business course. To a great extent, not going into debt can be a severe mistake even if apparently unnecessary. Not going into debt means losing liquidity (since you pay everything instantly) which can be an overwhelmingly stupid mistake. Even if clubs for some reason did not go into debt for players they'd still find a number of other things to get in debt with. It is just so much better to pay later than to pay now....

That said, it is true the england case is very special. Every league has a number of low key A league teams, a few above average teams that have an honest short at winning the league with a little luck and 2 teams which usually dominate the league(Spain for instance, where real madrid and Barca dominate the league easily). In contrast, England right now has 4 teams of that level (manchester, arsenal, manchester city and chelsei) along with some other very decent clubs. That would naturally cause in the increase in wages and whatnot since there are so many overwhelmingly competitive teams. Still, the problem here is not precisely one of inflation and whatnot. Just look at the absurd salaries rookie players in USA professional leagues get paid... Its overwhelmingly stupid, I remember a rookie for american footaball who got a contract for 70 mil.... he wasnt even a pro player before that, he was a worthless rookie... Have we seen NFL or NBA crash down into oblivion? Nope, they are there and are as profitable as ever. In that sense, it is perfectly plausible to have grossly overpaid players without putting the sport in danger. The issue here is clearly not one of inflation and whatnot but rather about the clubs being smart. The problem here would be when clubs go into debt any reasonable person would deem absurdly risky. The problem is going into more debt than what you can plausibly pay. Overpaid players and debt are not the issue, the problem is a club randomly going stupid and paying its players more than it knows it can't or get into a debt they cannot pay.

[Imperium]

CLubs going into debt is not necessarily a bad thing. Quite frankly, it is a very natural business course. To a great extent, not going into debt can be a severe mistake even if apparently unnecessary. Not going into debt means losing liquidity (since you pay everything instantly) which can be an overwhelmingly stupid mistake. Even if clubs for some reason did not go into debt for players they'd still find a number of other things to get in debt with. It is just so much better to pay later than to pay now....

I understand when you say that not all debt is bad. My club (Arsenal) are 100 or so million in debt, though that debt is not bad and should easily be paid back within the coming years. It is manageable. However the problems is that vast majority of clubs have unmanageable debts. Take Liverpool and Manchester united. The two biggest clubs in English football, and both have staggering debts that are ridiculous and essentially bad for the clubs. While both debts were not originally because of player wages/ transfer fees (due to stupid owners), it has added to the problem.

The vast majority of debts currently held in the premier league i would say are "bad". Im not a buisness whiz (in fact my buisness sense is shit) but just look at how it currently stands, club debt. Only 6 clubs have an operating profit, and correct me if im wrong but it seems judging from a lot of clubs operating profit and interest payments, its really fucked. Now most of these clubs are in this mess directly relating to wages and transfer related business. I should say though the premier league is an extreme example and the worst in regards to debt in europe.

That said, it is true the england case is very special. Every league has a number of low key A league teams, a few above average teams that have an honest short at winning the league with a little luck and 2 teams which usually dominate the league(Spain for instance, where real madrid and Barca dominate the league easily). In contrast, England right now has 4 teams of that level (manchester, arsenal, manchester city and chelsei) along with some other very decent clubs. That would naturally cause in the increase in wages and whatnot since there are so many overwhelmingly competitive teams. Still, the problem here is not precisely one of inflation and whatnot. Just look at the absurd salaries rookie players in USA professional leagues get paid... Its overwhelmingly stupid, I remember a rookie for american footaball who got a contract for 70 mil.... he wasnt even a pro player before that, he was a worthless rookie... Have we seen NFL or NBA crash down into oblivion? Nope, they are there and are as profitable as ever. In that sense, it is perfectly plausible to have grossly overpaid players without putting the sport in danger. The issue here is clearly not one of inflation and whatnot but rather about the clubs being smart. The problem here would be when clubs go into debt any reasonable person would deem absurdly risky. The problem is going into more debt than what you can plausibly pay. Overpaid players and debt are not the issue, the problem is a club randomly going stupid and paying its players more than it knows it can't or get into a debt they cannot pay.

My knowledge of the NBA and NFL doesnt go beyond knowing how to play the sports. However i think im right in saying there is no relegation in those sports. This is a very important point. When a team in european football reaches the highest league, its profit usually increases because of better TV deals, coverage etc. In some countries the difference is negligible. In others, mainly the bigger leagues the difference its incredible. In England, relegation from the premier league causes a average football club to lose in the region of 50million pounds a year in tv deals alone (the second league under the Premier league gets on average only 1m). So clubs will do everything once promoted to the Premier league to stay in the Premier league. Including paying ridiculous wages and salaries. The clubs pay a lot to first get into the premier league through promotion, they pay even more so the dont get relegated, they then go into debt and try to climb up the table by paying more and more, until they cannot sustain it and they collapse. Im sure you can see, its a vicious cycle. While its still usually only to the mid to smaller clubs (only Leeds united are the only big club thats fallen that way in recent times). Its could happen to the bigger ones aswell in lesser way. Example liverpool right now. This adversely affects the league.

This is why the Premier league is more vulnerable compared to those american leagues, the clubs are caught in a cycle of debt and more debt causing the whole league to be unstable. There is not such thing in America. The "franchises" are not relegated, nor is such extreme financial consequences put on them for not performing on the pitch. Its even fairer with the picking of upcoming talent (another thing that is totally fucked up in football), so there is always chance of improvement. Coincidently, if on of those American leagues become unsustainable im sure it will be bailed out, or a new league formed. They're essentially the only major leagues in their sport. Without them there is no sport. Not the same in football. If the Premier league collapses, its englands problem to fix. Football will continue. Your last point is interesting though, i agree with you clubs shouldn't be stupid and pay over the odds. The thing is, football clubs are run by idiots.

[thsv]

I understand when you say that not all debt is bad. My club (Arsenal) are 100 or so million in debt, though that debt is not bad and should easily be paid back within the coming years. It is manageable.

Out of the 'Big 4' It's probably the smartest debt of all. You've got a 60,000 seater stadium to show for it.

However the problems is that vast majority of clubs have unmanageable debts. Take Liverpool and Manchester united. The two biggest clubs in English football, and both have staggering debts that are ridiculous and essentially bad for the clubs. While both debts were not originally because of player wages/ transfer fees (due to stupid owners), it has added to the problem.

The funniest thing about both these clubs debt? They are basically paying their owners for the privilage of being owned by them

The vast majority of debts currently held in the premier league i would say are "bad". Im not a buisness whiz (in fact my buisness sense is shit) but just look at how it currently stands, club debt. Only 6 clubs have an operating profit, and correct me if im wrong but it seems judging from a lot of clubs operating profit and interest payments, its really fucked. Now most of these clubs are in this mess directly relating to wages and transfer related business. I should say though the premier league is an extreme example and the worst in regards to debt in europe.


My knowledge of the NBA and NFL doesnt go beyond knowing how to play the sports. However i think im right in saying there is no relegation in those sports. This is a very important point. When a team in european football reaches the highest league, its profit usually increases because of better TV deals, coverage etc. In some countries the difference is negligible. In others, mainly the bigger leagues the difference its incredible. In England, relegation from the premier league causes a average football club to lose in the region of 50million pounds a year in tv deals alone (the second league under the Premier league gets on average only 1m). So clubs will do everything once promoted to the Premier league to stay in the Premier league. Including paying ridiculous wages and salaries. The clubs pay a lot to first get into the premier league through promotion, they pay even more so the dont get relegated, they then go into debt and try to climb up the table by paying more and more, until they cannot sustain it and they collapse. Im sure you can see, its a vicious cycle. While its still usually only to the mid to smaller clubs (only Leeds united are the only big club thats fallen that way in recent times). Its could happen to the bigger ones aswell in lesser way. Example liverpool right now. This adversely affects the league.

This is why the Premier league is more vulnerable compared to those american leagues, the clubs are caught in a cycle of debt and more debt causing the whole league to be unstable. There is not such thing in America. The "franchises" are not relegated, nor is such extreme financial consequences put on them for not performing on the pitch. Its even fairer with the picking of upcoming talent (another thing that is totally fucked up in football), so there is always chance of improvement. Coincidently, if on of those American leagues become unsustainable im sure it will be bailed out, or a new league formed. They're essentially the only major leagues in their sport. Without them there is no sport. Not the same in football. If the Premier league collapses, its englands problem to fix. Football will continue. Your last point is interesting though, i agree with you clubs shouldn't be stupid and pay over the odds. The thing is, football clubs are run by idiots.

Actually since the leagues are run as businesses they be left to fail (Google NASL). The thing with american sports is at the professional level it's a lot harder for the top clubs to hoover up all the top youth talent as the draft system means the league's worst team tend to get the best shot at the best youngsters. Plus the salary cap means that no matter how badly a team wants to bring in a group of galacticos, they can't if their combined wages go above the cap. Give Arsenal their due, they have a pay structure and they stick to it

[Imperium]

Haha, Joe Cole left london. Who'd have thought it? xD

[L0ki]

Now he's going to show all his class injuries at Liverpool?

[goldb]

Arsenal have shifted injury prone Eduardo; thank god.

[Imperium]

^I feel slightly conflicted, i hoped he would return to his pre-injury form. But it seems thats not going to happen (and you cant blame him)

Now he's going to show all his class injuries at Liverpool?

He's the brazilian englishman dontcha know? hahaha. Anyway on twitter i saw a stat that said he has only played 44% of matches since he joined chelsea!

[goldb]

44%?! That's despicable, he's been injured too much; its ruined his career cos I reckon he couldve been one of the best midfielders in the world because skillswise not many english players can compare.