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Thread: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    i posted this originally in the chapter discussion thread,but perhaps it deserves a thread of its own

    Quote Quote:
    ahh all this makes perfect sense and proves what i've been saying for years right. when it was said that naruto has half of kyuubi,it didn't mean half of the amount of kyuubi chakra, rather having half of the two elements of chakra(yin and yan), that's one element (yin) sealed in him. as said very early on,unless those two comes together there is no chakra. that's how the seal worked letting bits of yin chakra of kyuubi slip in and then mixin it with naruto's chakra that works as yan and we got bits of qb chakra formed and coming out.

    now in this chapter we clearly see that naruto's seal when opened takes black color,and black=yan (one of the many meanings of the word yan) and qb's color is white=yin. so undoubtedly naruto has been providing the yan through his own chakra for manifestation of qb,as it couldn't have come out only with yin part according to law of chakra that kishi established at very beginning.

    and now the state is naruto has the chakra for yan,while sealed qb has the yin. naruto can never utilize qb according to his wishes unless the snatches that yin part away,nor can qb come out ever unless he can take control of naruto's chakra completely to compensate as the yan that he lost to minato.

    also it now shows us how extraordinary is naruto's own chakra as it can actually supplement for the yan of kyuubi....and now it also makes sense that its strong enough to protect naruto from the evils of yin part,which none else can tolerate.
    so what do you think guys?

    PS: i want to point out that if this theory is correct then it will actually mean that naruto can use all of the qb chakra,not half...if he balances the whole of yin-qb with his yan.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I think it's a possibility. One of the themes with Naruto specifically has been balance and the themes of a whirlpool, which is chaotic in nature but balanced in form. Like the rasengan in concept is a very complicated thing but when its balanced its perfect and self sustaining. Even the idea of sage mode which requires a precises balancing act between very large forces. I think what you wrote is even more prevalent now that Naruto has faced and conquered his inner yin and yang and has found balance by confronting then accepting his dark self. The only thing left is to balance out the Kyubbi.

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Great theory, with high possibilities that it's true...never really dwelled upon this, because I wanted to hear the explanation from the manga, but UR explanation fits to what happened in the manga so far, and if U take the theory further, U will definitely find the answers to how genjutsu, and other non-elemental ninjutsu work(I already thought of genjutsu)...cheers man great theory

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @ Benelori, why did u left me on a cliffhanger? Do tell how this can explain genjutsu. Or if u felt that its off-topic, open another theory thread plz. I can't think of any explanation, and i am really curious to know ur theory on those two jutsus.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I personally don't see Naruto supplementing the kyuubi's chakra at all.

    Yes it has always been stated that Naruto has vast chakra reserves. but with the theory you've put forward it would seem that you're implying that Naruto has enough chakra to equal the kyuubi, since they would have to be in equilibrium. And as the Kyuubi is the single largest, most concentrated mass of chakra known to the Narutoverse pre Jyuubi. The only ways it's been explained for ninja to have chakra comparable to bijuu is either through Gate release, or with a tool (i.e. Samehada).

    The only way I could see that theory in particular working is if kishi spun the story so that in contrast to the hatred that increased Sasukes chakras, Naruto's chakra's increase due to Love/Respect. Which I personally don't want to see happening. Another possible workaround being Sage mode, which wouldnt be so bad

    I'm personally hoping Kishi never meant the chakra was split as literally as most want to accept it. If that was the case I'm sure madara would have targeted that half first as it is 1. already sealed up and, 2. without a jinchuuriki.

    Lastly the point you made about yin and yang, that without one the person in question can't use chakra. Where did u read that?

    In all fairness it does seem to make sense, but it's only been stated that it's neccesary to have both Physical (gained through training and preparation) and Mental (gained through medatation/experience) energies to mold chakra, not yin and yang. I think the yin yang theory Kishi introduced is more of a measure of a character's will and disposition. Which is a value that can vary greatly with time (i.e. Sasuke team7 - Sasuke Akatsuki)

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    As I've interpreted it from the manga, yin chakra was the spiritual essence of an individual, while the yang was their physical essence, together formed and molded to create ninjutsu chakra. If we look at the kyubi, what was sealed inside of him was his "spirit" not his "physical form". The Reaper had to receive some of the Kyubi's chakra, or the jutsu would not have worked no? So I'm personally under the camp that he only contains part of the total that is the kyubi's chakra pool which is still greater then the 8tail's as shown in the latest chapter. 9T=8t+7t+6t+5t+4t+3t+2t+1t, which is why it needed to be sealed into the statue last to balance the chakra. Also, since Naruto is a Yang user IMHO, gaining the 9t's Yin chakra will again create a balance within Naruto allowing him even greater stability and strength.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @hyuuga mugen

    but yin yang is not something separate from physical and mental energy, its a representation of what its doing (mixing), and as i think it was stated before from ebisu to naruto, unless its balanced, energy is wasted and its has a negative impact on the resulting tech.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by metalanime View Post
    @hyuuga mugen

    but yin yang is not something separate from physical and mental energy, its a representation of what its doing (mixing), and as i think it was stated before from ebisu to naruto, unless its balanced, energy is wasted and its has a negative impact on the resulting tech.
    I believed i mentioned the point about balance, so I won't comment there. But yin yang has never been shown to be the same as body-mind (physical-spiritual chakras).

    If you bother to read through the points in the manga where chakra usage is explained while paying attention to the context you're likely to see my point here's quite valid.

    If yin and yang was the description of what the chakra is doing or how the chakra is mixing as you've put it, then you mean to say yin is when no chakra's are being mixed and yang would be when molding is active. Which would be a lot of effort on kishi's part to introduce a whole new way of looking at chakra, just to explain the same processes which when broken down like that seems pretty nonsensical.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/05/
    ^Ebisu's tutorial
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/
    ^this is the only stage where yin yang has been referred to when describing chakras as far as i'm aware.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/11/
    ^note: If Yin and Yang is a key part of the mixing of chakras, then by all means shouldn't it have been explained here, where Naruto was required to mix not 2 but 3 chakra elements.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/490/10/
    ^Frog tutorial

    Quote Originally Posted by Hojinmaru View Post
    As I've interpreted it from the manga, yin chakra was the spiritual essence of an individual, while the yang was their physical essence, together formed and molded to create ninjutsu chakra. If we look at the kyubi, what was sealed inside of him was his "spirit" not his "physical form". The Reaper had to receive some of the Kyubi's chakra, or the jutsu would not have worked no? So I'm personally under the camp that he only contains part of the total that is the kyubi's chakra pool which is still greater then the 8tail's as shown in the latest chapter. 9T=8t+7t+6t+5t+4t+3t+2t+1t, which is why it needed to be sealed into the statue last to balance the chakra. Also, since Naruto is a Yang user IMHO, gaining the 9t's Yin chakra will again create a balance within Naruto allowing him even greater stability and strength.
    If yin yang were in effect the physical and spiritual essence, then think of it slowly. If one was sealed away before given to Naruto that would mean either Naruto shouldn't need to do the training as the chakra's been split already by 4th, or that Naruto doesn't stand a chance in hell as all he'd be competing against is the Will.
    And although i find your maths intruiging there is simply no way for us to know how the bijuu stack up against each other apart from the basic ichibi<niibi<sanbi<yonbi...etc pattern, beyond that we're just fishing.

    Saying Naruto is a yang user doesn't help to clarify things at all, as there would be yang in ANYONES chakra. Do you mean he uses his own Yang? Or that Naruto is a user of the Kyuubi's yang??
    Last edited by Hyuuga_Mugen; June 02, 2010 at 02:37 AM.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyuuga_Mugen View Post
    But yin yang has never been shown to be the same as body-mind (physical-spiritual chakras).
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/11/
    Right here it shows that chakra is made up of Spiritual and Physical components. You posted it.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/18/05/
    Here it is earlier from the mouth of Kakashi, spiritual and body energy.

    And I miss spoke when I said he got the kyubi's yin chakra, he got his yang, which makes sense. Naruto is a yang user, in the sense that he uses a lot of physical attacks and manipulations via Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and Summonings. Which makes even more sense from Minatos stand point considering he probably understood what Naruto would have to do to take full control over the chakra. Stripping away the spiritual aspect and just taking the raw physical aspects of the kyubi's chakra "should" make it easier IMO for Naruto to force his willpower upon the Kyubi since he'll have both his spiritual and physical chakra to work with. It's frustrating of Kishi to throw in the idea of not only having chakra of a mixture of spiritual and physical parts, but now he's added in it's "Will", cause willpower and spiritual energy to me are very similar, if not the same thing. But, to me, this ties in beautifully with my theory of having a minor yin/yang. If you read what I wrote about 6 paths of the ninja, you will see what I'm talking about.

    As for my "math", go back and read the sections where the Akatsuki are talking about adding the bijuu and you will see that they talk about having to put them into the statue in a particular order to ensure the balance of chakra. Each was an order of magnitude more powerful then the next, similar to the Richter Scale.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    There the symbol for yin and yang is being used for demo purposes, ebisu, kakashi, iruka, sandaime and tsunade. All of Narutos mentors bar Jiraiya never even mentioned it. If u go as far as to watch the anime (though non canon) it's never been translated as yin or yang either. Which is why i believe kishi never used the symbol when Jiraiya spoke of yin and yang. So as not yo confuse us. But i guess in the end its all in the eye of the beholder.

    Personally I think your theory has too many assumptions on the mechanics of chakra. Yes it is true that from the way the story has been told that it looks as though yin and yang are akin to body-mind chakras. But I havent read any convincing evidence that kishi is trying to make us think this way. Especially as the tension between Naruto and Sasuke is reaching a crux and it seems more to myself atleast that it will be a battle of yin VS yang, opposing wills more than anything else.

    Not being rude or anything but I don't need to read what you wrote to understand a novel written by someone totally unrelated to yourself. All of my beliefs stem straight from the manga and I prefer fact over fiction.

    As for ur math did you see any of the Akatsuki going "Kyuubi equalz this one plus this one plus ...?". Talking about going back and reading the manga when you're creating detail thats not there.
    Last edited by Hyuuga_Mugen; June 02, 2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I'll have to agree with Hyuuga_Mugen. You assume that physical and spiritual energy are yin and yang energy based only on the fact tha Kishi uses a drawing that resembles yin-yang to show the molding of chakra. If I'm not mistaken, we already know that there is dark and light chakra that have to do more with nature manipulation than anything else.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Please explain why yin and yang manipulation are more closely related to nature manipulation. As far as I can tell via the manga the only reason if was even mention within the context of nature manipulation was because Naruto was so ignorent of chakra manipulation that kakashi and tenzo were simple answering questions as to the nature of different types of jutsu. Was never said that it was connected in any way to elemental chakra. Now who is making assumptions.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I don't believe he is saying nature manipulation is connected to yin and yang, just that it would be more likely than it being connected to physical and spiritual energy.

    But I would go as far to say that Nature manipulation is connected to the yin yang theory as it is almost as if yin/yang or light/darkness are a parallel cycle, though it would need more elements than light and dark to make it a cycle that's the way I envisioned it.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Hojinmaru's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    We can agree to disagree on this but, per pa toad (don't remember how to spell his name) and I quote, "Ninja techiquies use chakra born of the spiritual energy and physical energy inside you." regardless if you want to associate that with yin and yang I could care less but in the picture that goes with that text they show just that.


    And where is dark and light chakra ever mentioned in the manga, please link Artking. I know I've used the words to describe things in my theory, but I don't recall ever reading it or hearing it in the manga. Dark chakra I've read used to describe the feeling of a particular chakra per Sasuke, but never light. And it wasn't to say that it was a different kind of chakra.
    Last edited by Hojinmaru; June 02, 2010 at 02:15 PM.

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I guess im speqking for artking here lol, the whole dark and light thing isn't something that's been clearly stated in the manga, just hinted at. In exact contrast to that example you should also remember Karin commenting on how Narutos chakra opposed Sasukes, Karin stated herself that it was different.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/488/08/
    Bright and warm do seem to hint at light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hojinmaru View Post
    We can agree to disagree on this but, per pa toad (don't remember how to spell his name) and I quote, "Ninja techiquies use chakra born of the spiritual energy and physical energy inside you." regardless if you want to associate that with yin and yang I could care less but in the picture that goes with that text they show just that.
    Did I ever disagree with this? In fact...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyuuga_Mugen View Post
    I personally don't see Naruto supplementing the kyuubi's chakra at all.

    Yes it has always been stated that Naruto has vast chakra reserves. but with the theory you've put forward it would seem that you're implying that Naruto has enough chakra to equal the kyuubi, since they would have to be in equilibrium. And as the Kyuubi is the single largest, most concentrated mass of chakra known to the Narutoverse pre Jyuubi. The only ways it's been explained for ninja to have chakra comparable to bijuu is either through Gate release, or with a tool (i.e. Samehada).

    The only way I could see that theory in particular working is if kishi spun the story so that in contrast to the hatred that increased Sasukes chakras, Naruto's chakra's increase due to Love/Respect. Which I personally don't want to see happening. Another possible workaround being Sage mode, which wouldnt be so bad

    I'm personally hoping Kishi never meant the chakra was split as literally as most want to accept it. If that was the case I'm sure madara would have targeted that half first as it is 1. already sealed up and, 2. without a jinchuuriki.

    Lastly the point you made about yin and yang, that without one the person in question can't use chakra. Where did u read that?

    In all fairness it does seem to make sense, but it's only been stated that it's neccesary to have both Physical (gained through training and preparation) and Mental (gained through medatation/experience) energies to mold chakra, not yin and yang. I think the yin yang theory Kishi introduced is more of a measure of a character's will and disposition. Which is a value that can vary greatly with time (i.e. Sasuke team7 - Sasuke Akatsuki)
    ...isn't that pretty much ^what I said?^

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