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Thread: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hojinmaru View Post
    And where is dark and light chakra ever mentioned in the manga, please link Artking. I know I've used the words to describe things in my theory, but I don't recall ever reading it or hearing it in the manga. Dark chakra I've read used to describe the feeling of a particular chakra per Sasuke, but never light. And it wasn't to say that it was a different kind of chakra.
    I don't think Sasuke's "dark chakra" is the same thing that Kishi mentioned here(which is what I'm talking about):
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/
    And maybe I am mistaken but at least my brain linked yin-yang with nature manipulation because that's the main subject they were talking about.
    About Sasuke's "dark chakra", I think it's something entirely different than what Yamato talked about. In my opinion it's like Karin could sense Sasuke's "extreme state of mind" and pure hate through his chakra as he was fighting.
    I guess this should answer it for you.
    And to be more clear, I think that you misused "yin-yang" term to link it your theory with Kyuubi's split chakra. That's my main point of argument anyway. But whatever, we may or may not learn the truth at some point in the future.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member $nipe's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    I already posted my thoughts on it, so here it comes:

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto had to beat his inner dark side: it seems as if a perfect jinchuuriki needs to become one within his mind to complete the yin yang with the bijuu's chakra. In that case a person would be something like: good mind//evil chakra + evil mind//good chakra. Of course, remind yourself that the concept of yin and yang might not be good or evil per se, but light and dark, or two opposite forces within. But you get the idea. Now, eliminating the duality of the mind allows the host to become one with a part of the bijuu's chakra. This may explain why the Hachibi "used to be wild" http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/493/07/ . Since the bijuu's evil chakra is mixed with the host's pure mind, it becomes tamed. This means that if Naruto is succesful, Kyuubi will no longer be evil, because it won't have a mind of his own, but Naruto's.

    Perhaps for Naruto having only the yang chakra inside will make this union a perfect match, becoming an even more perfect host.
    The point is, a person needs a ying/yang duality, and the kyuubi as well. If he's not complete, he needs to complement himself within Naruto because he can't exist if Naruto dies, but Naruto doesn't really need the Kyuubi to exist and form chakra. This is why if Naruto dies, the Kyuubi dies too.
    Last edited by $nipe; June 02, 2010 at 10:38 PM.

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  4. #18
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    to the ppl who are saying that yin and yan is different from physical and mental element....i must say i disagree. as u should clearly understand this theory of mine is based on that assumption. if that is wrong then the theory is wrong,whch is possible of course.

    however yin and yan in chinese philosophy means nothing less than the two components that is present in anything.i mean in chinese philosophy each thing is considered a circle which consists of two elements and they are yin and yan. so they don't actually mean good and evil,dark and light....these are only two of alll the possibel meanings.

    for further clarification,consider this: when we are talking about universe,yin and yan means something (heaven and earth) which is totally different from what they would mean when we'r talking about health or socity or other things.

    and here concept chakra has been presented like that.... a circle with two elements...so naturally those two founding ingredients should be yin and yan when we are talking about chakra.

    and if u look at the pic u'll see white the yin part is spiritual and yan the black part is physical which once again is similar to ancient chinese ideas. there heaven is presented with yin and earth is yan...and in naruto heaven is mental/intellectual aspect..as in the heaven scroll while earth scroll was about body/physical.

    and if yin-yan meant good-evil, light-dark here as many are taking as granted...then it would have been more logical to use 'yan naruto' to mean 'dark naruto' instead of 'yumi naruto'.

    anyways,i don't see any better explanation of what has happenned so far. also u guys are overlooking the reason why i held back this long until chap 496 to make a thread on this....it was because this. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/76479784/14u can see that naruto's seal when opened is 'black' and qb's 'white'.....ring a bell anyone? yin and yan....white and black,see the connection? or u can view it like this ...the seal in front of qb becomes a 'void' while on naruto its certainly a 'mass'...this even closely alludes to yin and yan more originally...as in ancient chinese lores, heaven or void is yin and earth/mass is accumulation of yan.

    about naruto's chakra not being enough to balance qb's...there has been no such statements iin manga,rather the hints directed to quite the opposite direction, most notably on the occasion when yamatio said that naruto is special because his own chakra could negate qb's effect (something that is unique so far)

    i would propose a spin-off theory here about naruto's chakra: that its actually a manifestation of 'will of fire',while qb is the manifestation of 'hatred'. it seems to me that will of fire is the exact opposite to hatred. and it will explain quite well why minato chose his own son as the host. i believe the one who posseses that will most strongly in the village is the kage.
    and minato clearly believed that his son will surpass him,meaning that his 'will' will be even stronger,strong enough to counter qb's hatred...in other words it will give rise to strong eonugh chkara to negate qb's chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by $nipe View Post
    Well, we've seen a yin and yang mind/will inside of Naruto, as well. I think that's a concept that could be applied in many ways.
    made a little correction in italic to make what i wanted to say clearer. and i also apogize that i had to post an unfinished job...as the electricity went out. this is the finished version.

    PS:to get better idea of why yin and yan should be nothing other than the complementary,opposite, component factors of anything.
    Last edited by ashher; June 03, 2010 at 06:07 AM.

  5. #19
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member $nipe's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    to the ppl who are saying that yin and yan is different from physical and mental element....i must say i disagree. as u should clearly understand this theory of mine is based on that assumption. if that is wrong then the theory is wrong.

    however yin and yan in chinese philosophy means nothing less than the two components that is present in anything.i mean in chinese philosophy each thing is considered a circle which consists of two elements and they are yin and yan. so they don't actually mean good and evil,dark and light....these are only two of alll the possibel meanings.

    and here concept chakra has been presented like that.... a circle with two elements...so naturally those should yin and yan. and if u look at the pic u'll see white the yin part is spiritual and yan the black part is physical which once again is similar to ancient chinese ideas. there heaven is presented with yin and earth is yan...and in naruto heaven is mental/intellectual aspect..as in the heaven scroll while earth scroll was about body/physical.

    anyways,i don't see any better explanation of what has happenned so far
    Well, we've seen a yin and yang mind/will inside of Naruto, as well. I think that's a concept that could be applied in many ways.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @snipe: kindly read the last post again as it went through some revision....and i answered to ur post there as well.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hyuuga_Mugen's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @ashher: If you were waiting for last chap, then the new one brings a new revelation. Maybe the reason why it was significant for Minato to have sealed Kyuubi in within the yin was to allow Kushina to exist in that space and in essence allow Naruto to use his own will(which is of a yin disposition, a la Karin) to counter the Kyuubi with aid (in form of more yin to tip the balance, or encouragement from Kushina etc).

    I've taken in some of what you've said as it seems rational and it's given me a clearer understanding of yin-yan philosophy in general. You say yin-yan represents the the two components that exist in anything which I am in total agreeance with, so what I would say is that they're two sides of the same coin, in fact...

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/490/10/

    Right here it shows that will and chakra can adn do exist on two different scales. Yes chakra has been represented via yin-yan symbolization, i've linked many instances myself and never disputed that but I don't see how you could deny the light and darkness aspect of it if what u say is true then with that picture if there is yin-yan in chakra, there must also be yin-yan in will. The fact that Naruto had to overcome a dark image of himself should be enough to settle that, the same way you could see that the light still resides in Sasuke somewhere...

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/60/8
    and the page after
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/60/9

    That is an assumption. But the fact that Karin moves on to describe the two with the influence of their will. One the cold and darkness, the other warmth and brightness. Is clear evidence IMO

    And if you're trying to say the Kyuubi's white, get real. Naruto's jumpsuit was mainly white in part 1 and still is in places now. We know the Kyuubi's orange, he and Naruto's gear have always been depicted so in colour pages and anime.

    Naruto would not be able to balance out the Kyuubis chakra at base lvl. (non-sage)
    If you think of the scale let's just put Kakshi at the bottom
    Kakashi (Avg. Nin) Naruto (Kaksahi x 100? 1,000?..)
    Kyuubi... is there even a scale for how hard the Kyuubi would pwn Kakashi lol, even being conservative i would have to say 1,000,000 x Kakashi.
    Even though that's terribly inaccurate that would put naruto at one thousandth of the Kyuubis chakra. Yes he has higher chakra tolerance level, it's been shown multiple times during training (rasengan, sage mode). But to put him on Par with the Kyuubi when the Kyuubi has possessed him multiple times supressing him, and evidently showing that Narutos' chakra isn't a match. If you take the tails as fractions Naruto can barely handle 1/3 of the fox's chakra before going beserk. But i'll leave that argument in the wind since anythings possible with sage mode as has been proven .

    At the end of the day you can call it Light and Darkness good and bad, or Purity and Hatred, but it's there, period. The Kyuubi was sealed within the Yin of the sealing technique allowing Kushina to defend the mind with Minato to reside within the Yan of the tech to show when Kyuubi attempts to take over Narutos body. So now Naruto effectively has two yin vs a strong yan in the battle of wills and he likely won the battle of chakra already, it's just that the will has come to interfere in that too.
    Last edited by Hyuuga_Mugen; June 03, 2010 at 10:10 AM. Reason: cleanup

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Naruto is a damn straight forward manga and a simpleton in the mystery parts to boot...i doubt that it will hold off the yin yang stuffs longer. though i doubt kishi will indulge into a further exegesis. The fact Yin and Yang was not spelled as a conundrum for a while seems like a herald of : YIN YANG is specified, if you understand good if you dont no matter... naruto has been like this. I mean always we conveniently get a concierge explaining meticulously the terms that are alien to us...this process is usually naruto acting like and idiot and some one else explaining. this didnt happen in case of Yin and Yang ....so it(yng yang ) seems more of a given rather than a deduce-able one.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @hyuuga mugen i am not sure what point u r trying to make with kushina...also i don't know what are u actually meaning when u say qb is sealed in yin. all that manga told us is qb's yin was sealed in naruto and yan was in shinigami. and u r still thinking in the same circle that yin is white...i say so because u said that i supposedly said qb is white! i never said that...all i said is that qb's seal took white color which symbolizes yin, and naruto's took black color which symbilizes yan and it fits in my theory.

    the problem u r really having with this theory i feel is that it sems impossible that naruto should have enough chakra to balance qb. this is a problem,but not an unexplainable one. i came up with a theory which i believe fits in quite well.

    at the end of the day my point is that physical and mental r the founding components of chakra, while dark and light have never been mentioned as components of chakra...rather as adjectives to the whole chakra of someone.so by definition and norms yin yan should mean physical and mental components of chakra.while this may sound alien idea and bit too clever to be in naruto to western readers this should bethe natural implication of yin yan to anyone of east.(i actually dug up all those things only after reading the posts here.i never thiught what yin yan of chakra is debatable, i thought where theyan is coming from is the question.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hyuuga_Mugen's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    It's never been explicitly explained that light and dark are components of chakra. But afterthoughts too that respect are littered all over the manga, when team 7 fought Zabuza, Sasuke commented on the murderous intent spread through the feeling of his chakra. Same thing happened when Sasuke and Sakura were up against Oro. When people are around Naruto (or even Bee now apparently) they feel drawn to him, why exactly is always left unexplained but I would go as far as to say that it's an attribute of his will. If you please go back and read over my post you will see I never once stated Light and Dark to be components of Chakra. Read it again and you might find I go as far as to show them as two different subsets. Body and mind in Chakra and Purity and Hatred in Will.

    In regards to Kushina all I meant was that as yin-yan exists in everything. In this case, I see the yin-yan that lies within the technique, since the seal that went black on Naruto's stomach and void on the Kyuubis gate had nothing to do with neither of their chakras but Minato's. He sealed himself in the yan portion of which in terms of chakra and in line with your theory would mean he resides within the physical body of the seal (Naruto) As he would be the only one able to re-seal it. Then sealing Kushina in the yin portion (Naruto's mind/spirit) to aid Naruto in the battle that takes place as we speak.

    I never had a real problem with your theory I'm trying to defend my own which actually compliments it but I guess this is the wrong thread for that :P.

    Why is it so hard for you to see that our 2 theories go hand in hand? You're trying to say that I look down on eastern writers but I infact admire Kishi which is why I'm sitting here disputing this. Will and Chakra are linked each having their own equilibriums. what's so tough to swallow?

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    @hyuuga mugen_Oh man, it seems that i really have offended u, but i really had no such intention. That comment about difference between readers of east and west was a very innocent remark, which i made in response to the post above my last one. The guy there made it sound like we are talking about rocket science and i just wanted to say that all this should be rather simple to anyone who is familiar with eastern culture. And since i am using net on my cell, i had skip most of the posts here to save bucks. And i think it will be great if u make a post on ur theory only ( in this thread,i hope). Then it will be easier for us to undestand, compare and exchange notes

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    i guess then it was aimed to me ...well no i wanted to sound the opp instead of rocket science i wanted to sound like this topic has barely any links to advancement till we get any decisive answer from the manga itself .And if it is not given ever than its not worth to ponder at all.....what i pinpointed was naruto is a simple manga not like Vagabojnd or some other stuffs where one can, through gradual induction assume a lot of theories with links to reinforce(frogs talk in this manga for Gods sake)..all through the last post s we were talking abt how this is explained implicitly in this pg or sth along the line...kishi can just make a u turn and reset the theory behind yin Yang as he didnt specify blatantly what these manipulation s are .....
    as for eastern thoughts..idk. i wasnt particularly interested in the mythological aspects in Jp or in our country(i am more concerned over the power failures and traffic jams ) so it doesnt ring any bell...

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: yin and yan: naruto and qb: a symbiotic relation: CLARIFIED ALREADY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    @ Benelori, why did u left me on a cliffhanger? Do tell how this can explain genjutsu. Or if u felt that its off-topic, open another theory thread plz. I can't think of any explanation, and i am really curious to know ur theory on those two jutsus.
    Well...it's kinda like this...

    U mentioned that Naruto offered the balance for Kyuubi's chakra, and both of them need each other for different purposes...Kyuubi needs Naruto's yan counterpart to materialize and get out, and Naruto needs the ying counterpart to make use of the beast's chakra...basically it's for control purposes...

    Genjutsu is for control purposes as well...as we know genjutsu takes control of the users senses and controls them in the desired way...this like any other technique needs chakra to perform...in order to take control of one's senses the jutsu might work the same way Naruto's and Kyuubi's relationship does...so one complements the other's chakra with the necessary counterpart in order to take control and let the jutsu work...

    By cutting the chakra flow on can disrupt the balance which is needed for the genjutsu and get out of it, same with the dispelling technique kai...

    This doesn't mean though that people have just yin or yang chakra...these sides exists both of them, but maybe one nature is predominant than the other, same with elemental affinities which go from main affinity towards lesser ones...

    The best example is Shintenshin no Jutsu, which can be related to genjutsu as well, though the first uses direct infiltrations in the mind, while genjutsu via senses...

    If one cannot keep the balance, then the technique ends, we saw Ino failing 2 times with Shintenshin and we know genjutsus can be dispelled as well...
    When Naruto tried to get out from Itachi's genjutsu, Itachi was able to keep the balance better, and Naruto couldn't disrupt it...maybe Sharingan which have insight in one's chakra system can utilize genjutsu better then other genjutsu users, because of this theory of keeping the balance, thus keeping the technique working]

    Oh yeah...I left U on cliffhanger on purpose...U have another thread, where U wanted us to figure out bits of UR theory...maybe it was for this theory or some other, I don't know because I'm very rare on the internet, so I cannot follow the different threads...so consider this payback for that
    Last edited by benelori; June 06, 2010 at 09:33 AM.

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