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Thread: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

  1. #46
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    The latest chapter shows that Ichigo has comparable strength to HG Aizen.
    Actually it's on a comparable level, likely meaning something along this nature we've been going over. It's quite obvious that if the two were on the same level in all out strength Ichigo wouldn't have been as utterly worthless as he was there.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't agree with anything of what you said. Rukia and hitsugaya freeze stuff with their reiatsu, yama burns them and so on.... That does not change that what they use is regular, ordinary reiatsu. Ishida specifically said ulquiorra's reiatsu was different enough to not even be considered reiatsu, that has nothing to do with what specific powers he might have.
    Where does it clarify their nature is regular? Seriously, you're pulling crap from nowhere with that. What you're basically arguing is that a second release of an arrancar would bring about an entirely new classification, despite the fact that he implies any arrancar can reach it. Calling it with a new classification frankly is bollocks, as the only thing that would likely and SHOULD have a new classification, Ichinator, was not noted to be anything different than normal, this despite both of them were right up in front of it. Compounding this with the fact that we've seen at least two others with similar releases that were not noted to have such a thing in terms of reiatsu by VC no less, and one other completely unquantifiable variable that did have something similar noted for it, but clearly wasn't much compared to actual heavy hitters (Allon), and it's a damn hard case to be made.

    Of course this in itself is part of the reason that Nature can't be argued. Is that what nature means, or is nature of the power exactly what I specified.

  2. #47
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Where does it clarify their nature is regular? Seriously, you're pulling crap from nowhere with that. What you're basically arguing is that a second release of an arrancar would bring about an entirely new classification, despite the fact that he implies any arrancar can reach it. Calling it with a new classification frankly is bollocks, as the only thing that would likely and SHOULD have a new classification, Ichinator, was not noted to be anything different than normal, this despite both of them were right up in front of it. Compounding this with the fact that we've seen at least two others with similar releases that were not noted to have such a thing in terms of reiatsu by VC no less, and one other completely unquantifiable variable that did have something similar noted for it, but clearly wasn't much compared to actual heavy hitters (Allon), and it's a damn hard case to be made.

    Of course this in itself is part of the reason that Nature can't be argued. Is that what nature means, or is nature of the power exactly what I specified.
    Well, you were the one that brought in the thing about the nature of their individual powers which has nothing to do with anything I said or was stated in the manga. Nothing has been said about any other character having anything other than regular assumption so I don't see why we should think otherwise. Characters having elemental powers is an application of reiatsu at best, it does not influence whether the reiatsu released by a character should be considered something else entirely.

    Ishida specifically said ulquiorra's reiatsu was far to different to even be considered reiatsu, that is all. His special abilities have nothing at all to do with that. Ishida is a perfectly reliable source and there is not a single good reason to doubt that. Also, if nothing was said about hollow ichigo's reiatsu then odds are it did not go through such a change, it simply remained as ichigo's normal reiatsu except he somehow got a lot more of it.

  3. #48
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Quote:
    Well, you were the one that brought in the thing about the nature of their individual powers which has nothing to do with anything I said or was stated in the manga. Nothing has been said about any other character having anything other than regular assumption so I don't see why we should think otherwise. Characters having elemental powers is an application of reiatsu at best, it does not influence whether the reiatsu released by a character should be considered something else entirely.
    If the uncontrollable leakage of one dude's power causes things to freeze over, and another dude cause things to burn, there's clearly a difference. This doesn't have to do with application, because the Hitsugaya case at least wasn't applying anything. This is just due to the existence of said power. Is that a possible interpretation of what this nature means? Frankly speaking, considering the only other alternative viable is resurrecting twice somehow makes you a new species, yet whatever the hell Ichigo did does not for some reason, that's the only plausible one currently put forth.

    Quote Quote:
    Ishida specifically said ulquiorra's reiatsu was far to different to even be considered reiatsu, that is all. His special abilities have nothing at all to do with that. Ishida is a perfectly reliable source and there is not a single good reason to doubt that. Also, if nothing was said about hollow ichigo's reiatsu then odds are it did not go through such a change, it simply remained as ichigo's normal reiatsu except he somehow got a lot more of it.
    See all of this? Making stuff up, especially that last bit. A possible interpretation? Possibly, mostly because Kubo's been pulling some really stupid crap lately, but it's possible regardless. But it's not remotely the only viable answer, and the entire questionable variable of what nature is brought about because of it only proves the point that arguing nature is not viable.

    Edit: Let me put this another way. If Nature is what you say it is, and is so clearly definable among different 'species' that they are easily able to tell who is what, why were:

    1. The Shinigami unable to detect the Human and Quincy natures in SS to easily find and oust them?

    2. The entire group unable to discern Orihime, the only human in HM other than them, among all the numerous arrancar, Hollows, and three shinigami in HM, this despite Ichigo, who sucks at detecting mind, able to sense Chad puttering out despite Chad being right next to a Captian and VC, and him being in the remote vicinity of Kenpachi (Hence there's no arguing 'interference')?

    3. They unable to tell anything wrong with Ichigo at all, because if you mean to suggest that somehow he didn't change from that transformation, I think that speaks for itself. This including Ulquiorra and Ishida being right there, and note Ishida got impalled due to this mind.
    Last edited by Random101; June 05, 2010 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #49
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Of course there is a difference but that difference is solely because hitsugaya has power over ice and yamamoto has power over fire. That does not mean their reiatsu suddenly is something that becomes something significantly differentiable from the reiatsu of other shinigami, they just have different individual abilities.

    What exactly did I make up? Did ishida not said ulquiorra's reiatsu was too different to be considered reiatsu? Why should we assume hollow ichigo went through such a change if nothing was said?

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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    So then you basically agree that the nature of their power, ie; REIATSU, is different. I'll grant that overall they might be similar, but it goes without saying that the nature is different.

    Quote Quote:
    What exactly did I make up?
    Quote Quote:
    Ishida specifically said ulquiorra's reiatsu was far to different to even be considered reiatsu, that is all. His special abilities have nothing at all to do with that. Ishida is a perfectly reliable source and there is not a single good reason to doubt that. Also, if nothing was said about hollow ichigo's reiatsu then odds are it did not go through such a change, it simply remained as ichigo's normal reiatsu except he somehow got a lot more of it.
    ^All that. Special abilities have nothing to do with nature? And we know this factoid how? no one's ever expanded on nature, ever. Ishida's reliable? And he's unable to sense all that crap I previously listed over and over again (I'll grant if Kubo put in said scene there's no reason to doubt it, but reiatsu senses and all other abilities like them in manga are subject to plot first and formost, and there's no arguing that)? All that conjecture about Ichigo, despite he outright turned hollow? All that's conjecture. Some more viable than others yes, but conjecture none the less.

    Quote Quote:
    Why should we assume hollow ichigo went through such a change if nothing was said?
    Because you're assuming that nature means exactly what such a change would entail, namely freaking turning into some bloody hybrid as opposed to just releasing twice, as opposed to other more sensible and viable options. That nothing was said would directly imply that that's NOT what nature means, not that Ichigo did not somehow change due to a process that basically all but turned him into something completely different.

  6. #51
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Because we know shinigami as a whole have similar reiatsu, hollows have similar reiatsu to each other, hybrids have similar reiatsu to each other. In that sense, shinigami reiatsu can in fact be recognized as shinigami reiatsu, hybrid reiatsu can be recognized as hybrid reiatsu and hollow reiatsu can be recognized as hollow reiatsu. Hitsugaya having power over ice, yama having power over fire, byakuya controlling petals do not make their reiatsu distinguishable from ordinary shinigami reiatsu. Surely the reiatsu of each individual can be differentiated but it still remains within certain boundaries which make it recognizable as reiatsu. Even between different species where there are differences, there still seem to be similarities as they just call it reiatsu (albeit they can attribute it to certain species). Ulquiorra's case was clearly different as noted by ishida (as he mentioned it could be considered something entirely different from reiatsu).
    Last edited by kkck; June 05, 2010 at 05:04 PM.

  7. #52
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    And despite that this no one notices the growing change in Ichigo, nor the quite obvious massive change going on with Ichinator. Now see, that right there is already a freaking massive case against you, ignoring the several other cases already listed in which such a defining classification makes literally a majority of the series make no sense. Suffice to say there is no clear cut definition on nature, that interpretation you are arguing right there has not been in any way noted by anyone, much less defined as the 'nature' of reiatsu, and more importantly doesn't tell us jack all about what's going on with Ulquiorra.

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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    I'd rather have my reiatsu be described in comparison to an ocean than not at all.

    Certainly doesn't mean that i have little reiatsu.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

  9. #54
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    And despite that this no one notices the growing change in Ichigo, nor the quite obvious massive change going on with Ichinator. Now see, that right there is already a freaking massive case against you, ignoring the several other cases already listed in which such a defining classification makes literally a majority of the series make no sense. Suffice to say there is no clear cut definition on nature, that interpretation you are arguing right there has not been in any way noted by anyone, much less defined as the 'nature' of reiatsu, and more importantly doesn't tell us jack all about what's going on with Ulquiorra.
    I don't see this huge case you mention. Obviously there was an increase in strength on ichigo's part but it was not necessarily a change of the same class of what ulquiorra went through. In that sense, even if ichigo maintained his regular reiatsu but simply increased exponentially, it changes nothing at all about ulquiorra.

    I am not arguing what exactly ishida meant by saying the nature of ulquiorra's reiatsu was different from regular reiatsu, quite frankly even if a thread about that was started I wouldn't even know what to say. I am merely pointing out THE FACT that this change took place due to segunda etapa. Ishida is a perfectly reliable source, none of the things you claim make him any less than that are vaguely relevant.

    It is kinda late for this but anyways....
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/03/
    Take a look at the background of where ishida and inue are. You can see that effect kubo uses for reiatsu. Granted it happened as ulquiorra used his cero but what we see in the background of those frames is clearly ulquiorras reiatsu.
    Last edited by kkck; June 05, 2010 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #55
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Quote:
    I don't see this huge case you mention. Obviously there was an increase in strength on ichigo's part but it was not necessarily a change of the same class of what ulquiorra went through. In that sense, even if ichigo maintained his regular reiatsu but simply increased exponentially, it changes nothing at all about ulquiorra.
    So you're maintaining that despite him turning hollow, being able to function with a massive hole in his chest, and more importantly showing a state entirely unique from anything we'd seen prior, he maintain his regular old reiatsu and had no noticable change at all. Frankly I'd think that's ludicrous.

    Quote Quote:
    Take a look at the background of where ishida and inue are. You can see that effect kubo uses for reiatsu. Granted it happened as ulquiorra used his cero but what we see in the background of those frames is clearly ulquiorras reiatsu.
    Uh, ignoring that that's caused by the firing of the black cero, you've pretty much just shot yourself in the foot with that. So not only is there a distance limit going on, as I'd maintained, thanks to the fact that they apparently sense nothing prior to the sudden burst of said attack, but funnily enough, said effect is pretty much identical to what they sense later, only less dense in said particular case. In fact oddly enough what they sense is virtually identical to Ulquiorra's stage one Black Cero, which pretty much solidifies a clear cut case for attacks correlating to said 'nature'.
    Last edited by Random101; June 05, 2010 at 07:50 PM.

  11. #56
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    So you're maintaining that despite him turning hollow, being able to function with a massive hole in his chest, and more importantly showing a state entirely unique from anything we'd seen prior, he maintain his regular old reiatsu and had no noticable change at all. Frankly I'd think that's ludicrous.
    I think either there was a substantial increase in reiatsu or simply hollow ichigo was capable of using all of the reiatsu and bankai speed which ichigo normally cannot access. Since a change similar to what ulquiorra went through was not pointed out or implied, I don't think it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Uh, ignoring that that's caused by the firing of the black cero, you've pretty much just shot yourself in the foot with that. So not only is there a distance limit going on, as I'd maintained, thanks to the fact that they apparently sense nothing prior to the sudden burst of said attack, but funnily enough, said effect is pretty much identical to what they sense later, only less dense in said particular case. In fact oddly enough what they sense is virtually identical to Ulquiorra's stage one Black Cero, which pretty much solidifies a clear cut case for attacks correlating to said 'nature'.
    I did not ignore cero, I even pointed out that was during ulquiorra's attack. Still, the effect in the background of the frames was that of reiatsu being released. It stands to logic that was ulquiorra's reiatsu. Why do you think they sensed nothing of ulquiorra's power before that though? As I mentioned before, reiatsu is something that can be felt by pretty much anyone over what appears to be miles. I posted that link to show a real example of them feeling ulquiorra's reiatsu but that does not mean they could not feel it before. I doubt las noches was nearly tall enough to make it so that ulquiorr's reiatsu could not be felt prior to his segunda etapa.

    How could those two things be so different? I mean, they are dark so there really is not much room for variation. Also, ceo -regardless of the kind- is mostly a generic attack so I doubt ulquiorra's reiatsu would be to it what ice was to hitsugaya. If anything for such a thing ulquiorra's reiatsu would have to reflect ulquiorra's lightsaber or lanza del relampago considering those were his real special and unique techniques. Not that I think the change in reiatsu ulquiorra went through had even a vague relationship to his special techniques though.

  12. #57
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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Quote Quote:
    I think either there was a substantial increase in reiatsu or simply hollow ichigo was capable of using all of the reiatsu and bankai speed which ichigo normally cannot access. Since a change similar to what ulquiorra went through was not pointed out or implied, I don't think it happened.
    Save that again, the change you're attempting to claim isn't necessarily what that is, because again Nature is never remotely defined.

    Quote Quote:
    As I mentioned before, reiatsu is something that can be felt by pretty much anyone over what appears to be miles. I posted that link to show a real example of them feeling ulquiorra's reiatsu but that does not mean they could not feel it before.
    Massively incorrect. It's only felt when plot demands it. Otherwise all those cases outlined earlier, Ishida running into Mayuri, Mayuri showing up without Ishida noticing at all, them not tracking down the Ryoka instantly, them not having a clue where Orihime was and retardedly deciding to split up in enemy territory, etc... would not have happened. What we are shown is nothing then a sudden swell. Ulquiorra's first release isn't even mentioned by them from that far, yet the Cero somehow was? Not freaking likely. Keep in mind, they actually have a scene after said event and mention nothing. That's already a massive case against your claims right there.

    Quote Quote:
    How could those two things be so different? I mean, they are dark so there really is not much room for variation. Also, ceo -regardless of the kind- is mostly a generic attack so I doubt ulquiorra's reiatsu would be to it what ice was to hitsugaya. If anything for such a thing ulquiorra's reiatsu would have to reflect ulquiorra's lightsaber or lanza del relampago considering those were his real special and unique techniques. Not that I think the change in reiatsu ulquiorra went through had even a vague relationship to his special techniques though.
    Recall Ulquiorra's first release is punctuated with blotting out the sky and the black rain. Something of that nature is already defined as his reiatsu prior to second release, this new bit just clearly shows an exact replication between both it and the black cero.
    Last edited by Random101; June 05, 2010 at 09:06 PM.

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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    Ichigo's strength in his strongest form should be comparable to Aizen's strength. That being the case Ulquiorra definitely has to be stronger than his rank implies.

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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    So because Ichigo's strength in his strongest form should be comparable to Aizen's, and his strongest form pretty much raped Ulquiorra as hard as he'd previously been raped in return, Ulquiorra has to be stronger than his rank implies... Even ignoring that the basis for Ichigo's strength in his strongest form is incredibly vague conjecture from the start (As well as calling that his strongest form to begin with, it seems Aizen entered a state similar to that with no mask and no hole at all, suggesting something very much different), that logic is plain off. Massively so.

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    Re: Segunda Etapa is no big deal

    - Ulq was able to cancel out Ichigo's cero and survive a point blank cero without his body being completely destroyed.

    - Ichigo's Perfect Hollow Form is likely his strongest form so far since it's more than just the mask.

    - Ichigo was able to comprehend Aizen's strength because he already has enough power to compare to him, he just can't access it at will.

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