Segunda Etapa is no big deal

[Gran Maestro]

Bankai has been called second stage or second level of release and the same terminology has been used to calll segunda etapa.

For the record, bankai has also been called "final form". So if we will go by terminology, Ggio Vega also had a bankai (because he had a true battle form), Yammy has a bankai (because he has a 2nd stage and possibly more), Yumichika has a bankai (because his shikai has a true form), Byakuya has an ultra-bankai (because his bankai has more forms).

No, the manga terminology doesn't say segunda etapa is a bankai. Even Tousen (as a shinigami with bankai) didn't have a segunda etapa because resurreccion is the release of hollow powers. Just because a bankai is 2nd release, we can't say every 2nd form/stage is a bankai, it's like calling every old man "Grandpa" just because your grandfather is old.

One last note, what are these names: Daiguren Hyorinmaru, Kokujo Tengen Myo'o, Senbonzakura Kageyoshi? Yes, they are the names of bankai forms of different zanpakuto. What's the name of the bankai of Ulquiorra? Segunda etapa? I must say if we'll go by terminology, Ggio Vega had every right to say he had a bankai because his final form had a name: "Tigre Estoque El Sable". Yeah, I know Ggio Vega didn't have a bankai, it's just an example that shows what we can accomplish by making a play on words.

If we ever see an arrancar bankai, nobody will argue whether it's a bankai because the explanation will be clear as a day.

[kkck]

For the record, bankai has also been called "final form". So if we will go by terminology, Ggio Vega also had a bankai (because he had a true battle form), Yammy has a bankai (because he has a 2nd stage and possibly more), Yumichika has a bankai (because his shikai has a true form), Byakuya has an ultra-bankai (because his bankai has more forms).

You are taking those things out of context. Gigio said he was going to use the true battle form of tigre estoque, basically something within his resurreccion. Yammi said his power was basically to grow larger as he gets angrier. Basically, growing bigger and meaner is the power of his resurreccion. Yumichika pretty much explained he normally fights with an incomplete shikai but he can fully release it at will. Byakuya explained what he did was also something within his bankai. He merely concentrated the petals to et different effects. Byakuya never said what he did was another level of release. On the other hand, ulquiorra stated what he did was another level of release. Nothing of what he said even vaguely implied what he did was something within his resurreccion.

No, the manga terminology doesn't say segunda etapa is a bankai. Even Tousen (as a shinigami with bankai) didn't have a segunda etapa because resurreccion is the release of hollow powers. Just because a bankai is 2nd release, we can't say every 2nd form/stage is a bankai, it's like calling every old man "Grandpa" just because your grandfather is old.

What does tousen have to do with the terminology? So you are saying bankai has not also been called second stage or second level of release? There is a difference between saying second release or form. A form is merely a change within a release and characters usually make it as clear as day that said change in form is part of their initial release-as all the characters you mentioned did-.

Ulquiorra did not say what he did was something within his resurreccion. He made it painfully clear what he did was another level of sword release. Seriously, if what he did was something within his resurreccion, why call it a second stage or level of release? Why would it be relevant he was the only arrancar to achieve that if that was something personal to him?

If we ever see an arrancar bankai, nobody will argue whether it's a bankai because the explanation will be clear as a day.

It is clear as day. You just don´t want to believe it.

[Gran Maestro]

Gigio said he was going to use the true battle form of tigre estoque, basically something within his resurreccion.

Where did the manga say it's within his resurreccion? Bankai is final form, Ggio Vega's true battle form is final form, therefore it's bankai.

Yammi said his power was basically to grow larger as he gets angrier. Basically, growing bigger and meaner is the power of his resurreccion.

Yep, 2nd stage of his resurreccion just like segunda etapa.

Yumichika pretty much explained he normally fights with an incomplete shikai but he can fully release it at will.

And many people argued that Ulquiorra's segunda etapa completed his incomplete resurreccion. Exactly same concept.

Byakuya explained what he did was also something within his bankai. He merely concentrated the petals to et different effects. Byakuya never said what he did was another level of release. On the other hand, ulquiorra stated what he did was another level of release. Nothing of what he said even vaguely implied what he did was something within his resurreccion.

What Byakuya did is "Byakuya bankai 2nd form", what Ulquiorra did is "Ulquiorra resurreccion 2nd stage".

What does tousen have to do with the terminology? So you are saying bankai has not also been called second stage or second level of release? There is a difference between saying second release or form. A form is merely a change within a release and characters usually make it as clear as day that said change in form is part of their initial release-as all the characters you mentioned did-.

Why didn't Tousen have a segunda etapa? Let me answer, because segunda etapa is not a bankai. I've already showed you that a bankai was called as "final form", so your definition of "form" is invalid. A bankai is second form/second stage/final form/final stage according to the manga, therefore we can argue that Yammy and Ggio Vega also have arrancar bankai.

Ulquiorra did not say what he did was something within his resurreccion. He made it painfully clear what he did was another level of sword release. Seriously, if what he did was something within his resurreccion, why call it a second stage or level of release? Why would it be relevant he was the only arrancar to achieve that if that was something personal to him?

Why didn't Ulquiorra's bankai have a name? A bankai has a new name, Ggio Vega's final form (which is a bankai according to manga terminology) had a name. If an arrancar has bankai, it's Ggio Vega, every piece of puzzle fits.

Segunda etapa means second stage, if first stage of a resurreccion is incomplete, you can have a second stage which completes the resurreccion. Yumichika's first shikai form is incomplete, his second form is the real deal and it's not bankai. There's no such thing as arrancar bankai, not yet. If we ever have it, it will have a cool new name like redencion. When an arrancar goes bankai, he will say "redencion" and he'll say the name of the redencion just like shinigami. When Kubo decides to introduce the arrancar bankai concept, he'll explain it in detail just like Yoruichi explained the shinigami bankai concept.

[Kaiten]

segunda etapa is not like or comparable to bankai, bankai is gaining supremacy over the spirit of your zanpakutou and manifesting it in the real world. Since segunda etapa does not do that it isn't even similar to a bankai.

Based on the fight with Ichigo there is not much about segunda etapa that would lead me to believe it was stronger than than the top three and Yammi. It certainly gave Ulquiorra a power boost, he looked faster and stronger, his defense and perception were better. But it still doesn't seem to compare, in raw destructive power, to Starrks cero's and wolves, resparia, and Hallibel's various water techniques. The case can be made for Barragon being number one. Hallibel's power was never fully shown, she had to fight someone with the perfect defense, but it is clear if you think about her power in the abstract, that if she had fought anyone but Hitsugaya her powers would have been brutal.

[osking]

Gigio said he was going to use the true battle form of tigre estoque, basically something within his resurreccion.

Uhh.....what? That was Ggio's second resurrecion just like how Ulquiorra has a second resurrecion as well as Yammy.

Yumichika pretty much explained he normally fights with an incomplete shikai but he can fully release it at will. Byakuya explained what he did was also something within his bankai. He merely concentrated the petals to et different effects. Byakuya never said what he did was another level of release.

Stop with the comparing a Shinigami Zanpkauto to an Arrancar Zanpakuto, thats nonsense.

He made it painfully clear what he did was another level of sword release.

Again with the SZ and AZ nonsense

segunda etapa is not like or comparable to bankai, bankai is gaining supremacy over the spirit of your zanpakutou and manifesting it in the real world. Since segunda etapa it isn't even similar to a bankai.

Exactly the point

Just adding my 2 cents on the discussion, I think the reason why Aizen chose Ulq as #4 was because of his technique arsenal. Ulquiorra in SE demonstrated the POWER of the top 3 Espada, but he just didnt have enough skills to be in the same league. He only had 2 offense attacks as opposed to Harribel, Baraggan and Starrk who had many attacks and were of more variety.

[Nicholas.Sama]

I think it is a big deal.

Ulquiorra said he was the only espada to "reach" that form. Which means he achieved it after he was ranked. If it does not increase his power (like some are implying) then the form serves absolutely no purpose. And when you "reach" a new level you must improve upon the level at which you already stood. Which means that he took his R1 to new heights as well in order to achieve Segunda Etapa in the first place.

Here's a DBZ analogy
SSJ1=R1
SSJ2=R2

When Goku and Vegeta "reached" SSJ2, did they just magically have it out of nowhere?....No. They greatly increased the power they had in SSJ1 and "reached" a new level.
So IMHO R1 Ulquiorra could be stronger than the top 3 as well.

[Random101]

He only had 2 offense attacks as opposed to Harribel, Baraggan and Starrk who had many attacks and were of more variety.

On top of this one of them was completely unreliable, missing a still target, and the other is something that was outright stated that all the espada could use when released, and was actually shown about to be used for Yammi too. Like Grand Rey however none of them really pull it out for some reason.

[kkck]

segunda etapa is not like or comparable to bankai, bankai is gaining supremacy over the spirit of your zanpakutou and manifesting it in the real world. Since segunda etapa does not do that it isn't even similar to a bankai.

Based on the fight with Ichigo there is not much about segunda etapa that would lead me to believe it was stronger than than the top three and Yammi. It certainly gave Ulquiorra a power boost, he looked faster and stronger, his defense and perception were better. But it still doesn't seem to compare, in raw destructive power, to Starrks cero's and wolves, resparia, and Hallibel's various water techniques. The case can be made for Barragon being number one. Hallibel's power was never fully shown, she had to fight someone with the perfect defense, but it is clear if you think about her power in the abstract, that if she had fought anyone but Hitsugaya her powers would have been brutal.

Well, we don't really know what exactly ulquiorra did to acquire segunda etapa while none of the other espada had it nor even seemed to know about it. The principle to acquire it does not necessarily have to be the same to be something comparable though. Take resurreccion for instance. Shinigami have to train quite a bit to acquire shikai, let alone bankai. On the other hand, arrancar don't seem to have to train to release their power, it sort of comes natural (WW for instance did not train for years to release his sword nor he could have most likely). What I am trying to say is merely that "resurreccion segunda etapa" is exactly what the name implies, a second level of release above resurreccion.

IMHO though, ulquiorra did show quite some more destructive power than the top 3. Just his lanza made an explosion comparable in size to half of las noches, I don't think barragan with his respira, starrk with his hundreds of wolves (let alone 1) or harribel with her watergun came even close to that.

[Random101]

Uh, there's really no noticeable training required to acquire shikai. You just have to learn the name of your sword, which if you are too gripped by fear you won't be able to do. Ichigo managed that in a few minutes once he was aware of the concept. Hitsugaya himself was almost to a similar point he was long before he was even aware he had shinigami powers. MASTER your shikai sure, as it took Ichigo ages just to learn Getsuuga reliably, and he's never been able to use it like Hichigo did, but just getting it doesn't appear to be that hard.

Similarly while the size is big, size really isn't everything if it doesn't do enough damage to what you're trying to hit, to say nothing of if you don't even have enough control to hit a still target. Barragon's Resipiera easily outstrips it, mostly because he can control what's hit, it has a wide range and is damn fast, and what's hit will continue to rot until there's nothing left. Give it a minute or two and he'd pretty much destroy Las Noches by just standing on it really.

[kkck]

The requirement to acquire shikai is basically to learn the name of your zampakuto but even that has been implied to be something only talented shinigami can do. Ichigo and hitsugaya are by all intents and purposes exceptions considering the insane innate talent they have.

Accuracy has little to do with how much power lanza had. If anything, the fact that ulquiorra had trouble managing that much power should mean something considering it is the first time we ever saw a character -in particular an arrancar-having trouble controlling his power (at least since renji had trouble controlling his bankai). I'd think if lanza does hit directly it'd basically obliterate any character in the manga though. Ulquiorra and his lanza would not need a minute or two to destroy las noches though, the first one right in the middle would reduce it to nothing mostly and if something is left he can make another one in a second. I just don't see how any other arrancar can even hope to compare to ulquiorra in terms of destructive power considering ulquiorra could spam lanza to such an absurd extent (even in his half dead state he was able to make 2).

[Random101]

We've never even remotely seen anyone else working for Shikai. Those two are the only cases we have, and both clearly show that it doesn't take all that long if you know what you're doing.

Also both Ichigo and Hitsugaya are outright noted to have difficulties managing the power of their bankais (In Ichigo's case it's pressure was crushing his bones back when it didn't suck in SS, and Hitsugaya outright states using Tenso Jurrin in bankai is a huge risk), so it's not remotely the only time.

Similarly Barragon only takes that long if he just stands on it, his mere presence causes stuff to rot. Ulquiorra's mere presence does jack all. He can spam respiera like nobodies business too. He start's layering that crap and Las Noches is gone in seconds due to how freaking fast the thing is.

There's also the distinction to be had with blast size and potency, but that's a long winded discussion for another time. Suffice to say something like Ichinator's Cero is indeed massive, but it did absolutely zero actual damage to Ulquiorra even though it was fired point blank. Whether this is because Ulquiorra's just that durable (Which in itself is off given how easily the damage he did take from that sword cut was so effortless), or the blast was just that weak in its potency is unclear because, frankly, we don't have anything to compare it with.

[En Yang Ji]

IMO Ulquiorra cancelling out Ichigo's hollow form cero proves he's the strongest espada. Not only did he cancel one of Ichigo's cero's but he took a point blank cero and was alive for a short time. Considering the power of Ichigo's hollow form, he should of been completely destroyed if he was only forth in power as an espada.

[Random101]

That's just hyping up the power of said Hollow state. How strong is that? There's no distinction at all because this retarded Secunda Etapa crap completely threw the power scale into question because none of it was remotely explained.

Frankly I still hold Segunda Etapa only came about because Ulquiorra's first release was retarded looking, and Kubo was trying to save face. The only real difference between the two was frankly appearance, the tail, and the lance was differently shaped. And was also a bomb. No freaking way to tell how much of a strength increase was gained because he'd already destroyed the Vizard state in the first stage, and outclassing his bankai state after that is no remote case for anything, in fact had it been the reverse he'd have clearly gotten weaker instead.

[kkck]

It is hard to gauge how strong ulquiorra got from his segunda etapa but I think we have some decent clues. This in particular is being very neglected for no reason.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/09/

Ulquiorra not only went through a significant increase in reiatsu -as ishida said "it is not just strong or enormous"- but ulquiorra's reiatsu also changed in its very nature. Ishida is a very sensitive dude when it comes to reiatsu so what he says is very relevant IMO. Ulquiorra getting this from his segunda etapa should be more than enough to suggest how special the thing is. No other espada was commented on having a reiatsu which was completely unlike reiatsu nor that dense.

[Random101]

I'd be more impressed if we had a comparison prior to that. Seriously that's not a comparison of increase, it's how it is to him now, we don't get told anything of his first state's level, likely because they were too far, and even that was enough to blot out the sky, raining down and what not, and practically stunned Ichigo to the point where he could only barely react in time, so pretty much same deal to say the least. And more importantly it'd also be a tad more impressive if it wasn't Ishida. Not to rag on the dude or anything, but his espada kill count is zero. His best attack (or rather best all out spell with a load of prep) mostly just charred the sealed 8th espada, who granted had to regen from it, but it still wasn't much to be frank. Frankly most people rank him barely at VC level.

Keep in mind the only thing that's had a similar comparison to anyone whose bothered to make mention of such a thing was Allon, made by another VC level individual no less who noticably wasn't even an warmup for Yamamoto (Then again it is Yamamoto, a majority of the captains wouldn't even be a warmup for him). In short there's again no basis for this.

It's an ocean. Okay, fine, what does that mean in comparison with everyone else? Because he certainly wasn't causing either of them to faint, ala Yamamoto or Aizen with sheer pressure. It's like Gin's Mach 500 sword. Okay, that's a nice measure of speed, but what does that mean in comparison to everything else.