Segunda Etapa is no big deal

[Cyber34]

Its no big deal now since he was completely dominated by Hollow Ichigo.

[osking]

Either way Hollow Ichigo was still strong. Even if Ulq's SE didnt increase his power, just judging by how easily Hollow Ichigo trashed him he had to have atleast been around Starrk's level, if not higher.

[kkck]

I'd be more impressed if we had a comparison prior to that. Seriously that's not a comparison of increase, it's how it is to him now, we don't get told anything of his first state's level, likely because they were too far, and even that was enough to blot out the sky, raining down and what not, and practically stunned Ichigo to the point where he could only barely react in time, so pretty much same deal to say the least. And more importantly it'd also be a tad more impressive if it wasn't Ishida. Not to rag on the dude or anything, but his espada kill count is zero. His best attack (or rather best all out spell with a load of prep) mostly just charred the sealed 8th espada, who granted had to regen from it, but it still wasn't much to be frank. Frankly most people rank him barely at VC level.

Keep in mind the only thing that's had a similar comparison to anyone whose bothered to make mention of such a thing was Allon, made by another VC level individual no less who noticably wasn't even an warmup for Yamamoto (Then again it is Yamamoto, a majority of the captains wouldn't even be a warmup for him). In short there's again no basis for this.

It's an ocean. Okay, fine, what does that mean in comparison with everyone else? Because he certainly wasn't causing either of them to faint, ala Yamamoto or Aizen with sheer pressure. It's like Gin's Mach 500 sword. Okay, that's a nice measure of speed, but what does that mean in comparison to everything else.

Why would the espada kill count be relevant? Its not like the thing was just about the amount of reiatsu, it was about the nature of it. Ishida, as basically a genius quincy, has basically one of the sharpest reiatsu sensing abilities around. Him noting such a change in reiatsu is very relevant.

[Random101]

Yes, and he makes no note of the change in Ichigo's. This note happens to get him impaled later on mind. Further, he's noting no change at all. He's getting in range, and then suddenly he's sensing what Ulquiorra's packing. Uh, whoop de freaking do. He's not comparing it to what it was before, because he makes no note of anything before. He's going from zero to ocean there.

Also Nature of reiatsu means diddly in the long run, because that has even LESS basis in anything. I mean both Hitsugaya and Rukia's reiatsu causing things to freeze around them if they lose control (or in Rukia's case summoning up her last bit of strength at the brink of death) but that doesn't tell us anything about the dude's strength. Arguing nature would have more of a basis if we knew what the nature meant between individuals, but in all honesty this has not remotely been expanded on. Arguing strength would have a basis if his firsts state had been noted at all in terms of reiatsu, or more importantly anyone else had a similar quantification going on to compare it too. All we have is Allon whose had anything close to Ulquiorra's description, and it goes without saying he isn't all that potent in comparison to actual heavy hitters going all out.

In short, could there be an argument to be had? Maybe. But frankly just as easily by nature of the factors involved, Ishida not being a heavy hitter in this series, having no comparison whatsoever, even to Ichigo's hollow state, among other things, it's not remotely a solid case.

[kkck]

Yes, and he makes no note of the change in Ichigo's. This note happens to get him impaled later on mind. Further, he's noting no change at all. He's getting in range, and then suddenly he's sensing what Ulquiorra's packing. Uh, whoop de freaking do. He's not comparing it to what it was before, because he makes no note of anything before. He's going from zero to ocean there.

Also Nature of reiatsu means diddly in the long run, because that has even LESS basis in anything. I mean both Hitsugaya and Rukia's reiatsu causing things to freeze around them if they lose control (or in Rukia's case summoning up her last bit of strength at the brink of death) but that doesn't tell us anything about the dude's strength. Arguing nature would have more of a basis if we knew what the nature meant between individuals, but in all honesty this has not remotely been expanded on. Arguing strength would have a basis if his firsts state had been noted at all in terms of reiatsu, or more importantly anyone else had a similar quantification going on to compare it too. All we have is Allon whose had anything close to Ulquiorra's description, and it goes without saying he isn't all that potent in comparison to actual heavy hitters going all out.

In short, could there be an argument to be had? Maybe. But frankly just as easily by nature of the factors involved, Ishida not being a heavy hitter in this series, having no comparison whatsoever, even to Ichigo's hollow state, among other things, it's not remotely a solid case.

Getting in range? Reiatsu, specially from captain level people, is something which can extend for miles and be felt pretty clearly. Las noches is probably several hundred meters tall but even then it should make no difference to how it feels to someone as sensitive as uryu.

Now, what ishida compared ulquiorra SE reiatsu to was reiatsu in general, no just what he felt from ulquiorra before. Obviously he felt ulquiorra's reiatsu from above the dome before but he did mention it was unlike anything he had felt before. I am not arguing the exact nature of ulquiorra's reiatsu but rather that his SE transformation triggered a change which caused him to have a reiatsu of an entirely different nature from that of any other character in the manga so far. What else is needed to show how special SE was?

[Random101]

Getting in range? Reiatsu, specially from captain level people, is something which can extend for miles and be felt pretty clearly. Las noches is probably several hundred meters tall but even then it should make no difference to how it feels to someone as sensitive as uryu.

And yet they cannot use this to, say, find Orihime in Las Noches to avoid splitting up? They can't use this to locate each other in SS to get their group back together and have a serious go at Rukia (Ignoring Rukia as she has a legit reason not to be sensed being in that Reiatsu repressing place, and ignoring the entire force of SS finding them as they have likely no clue what to look for)? How about all those times people showed up in front of all of them with them having no clue.

Ishida especially by your verdict, as he certainly didn't sense Mayuri coming prior to it happening, nor in their attempt to flea Syzael that he was being turned right back around to him. And why didn't he sense something being horribly awfully off with Ichigo then either? Suffice to say a range limit when they're not focused (Ichigo could for example sense Chad still alive if he focused for a bit, but couldn't otherwise as is the case here, as well as Ishida himself not even sensing the arrival and location of people he's also been in contact with in the same state as they were in), and a plot limitation is clearly within effect.

Now, what ishida compared ulquiorra SE reiatsu to was reiatsu in general, no just what he felt from ulquiorra before. Obviously he felt ulquiorra's reiatsu from above the dome before but he did mention it was unlike anything he had felt before. I am not arguing the exact nature of ulquiorra's reiatsu but rather that his SE transformation triggered a change which caused him to have a reiatsu of an entirely different nature from that of any other character in the manga so far. What else is needed to show how special SE was?

Where are you getting he could sense it from above the dome from? Seriously, you're pulling this from nowhere. And who are the people Ishida's sensed before? His buddies? Mayuri? That Ex-Espada chick? Those weaklings? Szyeal? Waves of mooks. Well duh they're not the same as him. Call me when he's been in contact with say Aizen or Yamamoto, then we have a case for some kind of basis that this is srs stuff. Hell, call me when he had close contact with the other top espada, who he's not met either. Then we have a clear basis for such an argument to say the least.

The massive flaw in you're argument that you seem to miss is that you're arguing this with Ishida. Ishida kinda hasn't been around all that many all out powerful people, nor is he all that powerful himself compared to a majority of the heavy hitters. He's faced seriously brokensauce ones yes, but outright powerful? Not even remotely.

[kkck]

And yet they cannot use this to, say, find Orihime in Las Noches to avoid splitting up? They can't use this to locate each other in SS to get their group back together and have a serious go at Rukia (Ignoring Rukia as she has a legit reason not to be sensed being in that Reiatsu repressing place, and ignoring the entire force of SS finding them as they have likely no clue what to look for)? How about all those times people showed up in front of all of them with them having no clue.

Ishida especially by your verdict, as he certainly didn't sense Mayuri coming prior to it happening, nor in their attempt to flea Syzael that he was being turned right back around to him. And why didn't he sense something being horribly awfully off with Ichigo then either? Suffice to say a range limit when they're not focused (Ichigo could for example sense Chad still alive if he focused for a bit, but couldn't otherwise as is the case here, as well as Ishida himself not even sensing the arrival and location of people he's also been in contact with in the same state as they were in), and a plot limitation is clearly within effect.


Where are you getting he could sense it from above the dome from? Seriously, you're pulling this from nowhere. And who are the people Ishida's sensed before? His buddies? Mayuri? That Ex-Espada chick? Those weaklings? Szyeal? Waves of mooks. Well duh they're not the same as him. Call me when he's been in contact with say Aizen or Yamamoto, then we have a case for some kind of basis that this is srs stuff. Hell, call me when he had close contact with the other top espada, who he's not met either. Then we have a clear basis for such an argument to say the least.

The massive flaw in you're argument that you seem to miss is that you're arguing this with Ishida. Ishida kinda hasn't been around all that many all out powerful people, nor is he all that powerful himself compared to a majority of the heavy hitters. He's faced seriously brokensauce ones yes, but outright powerful? Not even remotely.

Well, for one thing I doubt all the characters you mention were releasing all of their reiatsu at all times. Then there is this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/248/12/

Las noches has contains the reiatsu of the espada, numeros, privaron espada, a couple other captain level people and god knows how many fodder arrancar.... If orihime does not even release all of her reiatsu along with being monitored by someone as powerful as ulquiorra, how are the others suppose to feel her reiatsu?

I don't get he would not be able to feel ulquiorra's reiatsu from above the dome. The dome is certainly tall but even if a couple of miles tall, it should not be enough for people not to feel reiatsu from above specially since the material the dome is made of is not the type that blocks reiatsu nor they are far away enough. If you seriously need a reference then consider rukia in her POWERLESS state. She was able to feel through the reiatsu blocking walls the fight between ichigo and kempachi which most likely even took place even further away than what uryu was from ulquiorra. It'd make no sense at all that uryu could not feel ulquiorra's reiatsu from the start to the beginning.

I don't get why uryu's power is relevant in the least. Even if he was so weak that even regular seated officers would make him look like fodder, it would not affect my point. Uryu is a extremely relevant source here not because of his power but rather because his reaitsu sense is among the sharpest in the manga. Considering how important spirit particles in the air are for him and hence how important it is for him to feel them, I'd even think his reiatsu sensing abilities should be held to a greater standard than that of captains -not that captains even need such a thing that much-.

[Random101]

Las noches has contains the reiatsu of the espada, numeros, privaron espada, a couple other captain level people and god knows how many fodder arrancar.... If orihime does not even release all of her reiatsu along with being monitored by someone as powerful as ulquiorra, how are the others suppose to feel her reiatsu?

Completely shot out of the water when Ichigo, who note sucks at this, was able to tell the exact moment Chad fell, despite SS having FAR more sources for pressure to come from and more importantly him being pursued by Kenpachi. Not being able to sense her reiatsu would mean either she's dead, or close to it, and in the close to it case Ichigo was able to focus and could still sense him, although it's obviously not something he would be able to do mid battle without taking a massive risk.

I don't get he would not be able to feel ulquiorra's reiatsu from above the dome. The dome is certainly tall but even if a couple of miles tall, it should not be enough for people not to feel reiatsu from above specially since the material the dome is made of is not the type that blocks reiatsu nor they are far away enough. If you seriously need a reference then consider rukia in her POWERLESS state. She was able to feel through the reiatsu blocking walls the fight between ichigo and kempachi which most likely even took place even further away than what uryu was from ulquiorra. It'd make no sense at all that uryu could not feel ulquiorra's reiatsu from the start to the beginning.

Powerless =/= senseless. Further Rukia wasn't even powerless to begin with, she still had some clearly, otherwise she wouldn't have still been in that place designed to drain her so that the phoenix thing works.

Similarly you're not understanding the difference between focusing to sense, which is a majority of the cases in which it actually comes in handy, and just sensing as is the case here.

I don't get why uryu's power is relevant in the least. Even if he was so weak that even regular seated officers would make him look like fodder, it would not affect my point. Uryu is a extremely relevant source here not because of his power but rather because his reaitsu sense is among the sharpest in the manga. Considering how important spirit particles in the air are for him and hence how important it is for him to feel them, I'd even think his reiatsu sensing abilities should be held to a greater standard than that of captains -not that captains even need such a thing that much-.

It's important because this reiatsu is OMG HUGE to him, not someone of actual power. It's further important because it's again Ishida, and he's never met someone before with said OMG HUGE pressure to compare it too, much less when they were actually in fight mode. Sure he likely has better senses than most, but this does not change the fact that he's got nothing of any potency to compare it to, has had MANY moments when this supposed 'super sense' has failed completely, which I've outlined several times, couldn't sense crap about Ichigo's super state, and again because this is the important bit, he has nothing of any notability to compare it to.

It's impressive to Ishida, sure. Whoop de freaking do. It's Ishida. He'd likely be impressed by something like Allon to say the least, which suffice to say shouldn't be in the same league.

[kkck]

^You are not understanding that I am not talking about how much reiatsu ulquiorra had. Surely it was quite a bit but not the point.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/09/

Ulquiorra noted a change both in nature and quantity. In here what is relevant is the change in nature. Having a lot of reiatsu should not change the nature of it. Not to mention ishida has felt reasonably strong reiatsu's before. Since he was in SS, it logically means he felt the full extent of the reiatsu of every captain that fought there. Mayuri, tousen, byakuya are givens in this case. Considering the distances from which reiatsu can be felt, I'd think he also felt kempachis, kyorakus, ukitakes, yama... Szayel had captain level reiatsu and we know for a fact uryu felt that. Uryu definitely felt ulquiorras and yami's reiatsu before ulquiorra released. Basically, ishida has experienced his share of what captain class reiatsu is.

[Random101]

You keep saying change. Again, he does not, anywhere on that page, note a change. He suddenly senses something, and questions what it is.

Further, I know you're arguing nature. You seem to miss that nature is irrelevant. We have nothing to compare nature to. The only time we've ever had 'nature' of reiatsu even hinted at was in Hitsugaya and Rukia's obvious cases. How does this differ from say Ichigo's nature, or Gin's? Those two have a clearly and easily definable nature that would have (And have had) a clearly obvious result on the environments around them. Then we go to Arrancar, a mixed bag in the first place (Suffice to say Barragon's nature is one of the more clearly definable to say the least), and Ulquiorra, who was already blotting out the sky with his prior to that. We can't say jack on what nature means, by very virtue of the fact that nature itself is never clearly expanded on.

And suffice to say all this:

Since he was in SS, it logically means he felt the full extent of the reiatsu of every captain that fought there. Mayuri, tousen, byakuya are givens in this case. Considering the distances from which reiatsu can be felt, I'd think he also felt kempachis, kyorakus, ukitakes, yama... Szayel had captain level reiatsu and we know for a fact uryu felt that. Uryu definitely felt ulquiorras and yami's reiatsu before ulquiorra released. Basically, ishida has experienced his share of what captain class reiatsu is.

You're pulling it out of nowhere. Let's take a more obvious case: Mayuri.

Let's say you're right on this, and Ishida's good senses allowed him to note the nature and whatnot of all the captains, of which Mayuri is the only one he had direct contact with and thus is the one he could easily define the most.

Yet despite this he does not remotely sense Mayuri at all as anything dangerous when they first come in contact, nor does he attempt to avoid him, as again he's clearly dangerous. Further, in HM, when Mayuri arrives he has literally no clue of his coming. This despite having direct contact with him and having superior senses.

You see where your conjecture falls to pieces? If not, then I really can't help you, and we're veering off topic as is.

To further expound on this, he never catches a whiff of someone clearly on the danger level of Kenpachi, does not make note of the battle on top of the hill until they start getting close to it (Or are outright on the top now), and more importantly, makes no note whatsoever of Ulquiorra's reiatsu prior to suddenly sensing it. I mean for crying out loud, Ulquiorra'd already been released for quite a few seconds before said scene happened by virtue of how it'd been edited. That's already a massive clue right there.

[kkck]

^That is absurd, it is not necessary to compare ulquiorra's reiatsu to that of every other character in the manga to make uryu's comment perfectly relevant. Also, not sure what you mean by the part about checking the nature of every other characters reiatsu. Every other shinigami regardless of how strong would have regular shinigami reiatsu, every other arrancar would have regular arrancar reiatsu. Each individual would have reiatsu which could be identified as their own but they still seem to have reiatsu which can also be generally attributted to their own specie (for instance, characters have identified hollow like reiatsu, ichigo when wearing a mask has been noted to have similar reiatsu to other hybrids....). The notion that uryu needs to compare ulquiorra's reiatsu to that of every other character is just outright stupid, he just needs to note that the reiatsu ulquiorra has is outright different. Just to add, shinigami, arrancar and hollow reiatsu is still regularly called just reiatsu even though they all have differences, it is exclusively ulquiorra who has been noted to have something like this.

[Random101]

You seem to be missing what 'nature' means. In times in which Hitsugaya and Rukia lose control of, or in Rukia's case trip balls on their power, stuff around or near them starts to freeze. That's their nature, which given their abilities is blatantly obvious. What does this mean? They have power over ice. Well duh.

What the hell does Ulquiorra's power being compared to an ocean mean? The only thing we have on his abilities is that he favors black cero, which all released espada can use, and he makes his lance a nuke of sorts. Is it like that because the nature of his power is compression, akin to Ichigo's bankai? Is it like that because of the nature of second releases in general? Does it have any relation to when his power blotted out the sky and rained down upon his release? What the hell does 'nature' of the power mean for someone who, unlike Hitsugaya and Rukia, doesn't have an obvious elemental factor to fall back on?

You keep arguing nature, but nowhere is it remotely clarified what the nature of their power means in terms of the less obvious ones. I mean sure we could guess a few and have mostly accurate answers in all likelihood. Yamamoto's is obvious for one. Kenpachi's has some kind of skull thing going on that I don't get. What about Ichigo's? Does his have to do with the coloration between bankai and shikai of his getsuuga or what? How about someone like Gin's? What's the nature of the power of a dude whose one ability is 'extending'. Suffice to say arguing nature doesn't mean jack if we don't know what nature means.

Now it's that it's not just the nature he speaks of, but also clarifies that it is dense and is potent, hence why there's a point to be had there, but nature is entirely out of the question because it's meaning is unclear.

[En Yang Ji]

That's just hyping up the power of said Hollow state. How strong is that? There's no distinction at all because this retarded Secunda Etapa crap completely threw the power scale into question because none of it was remotely explained.

Frankly I still hold Segunda Etapa only came about because Ulquiorra's first release was retarded looking, and Kubo was trying to save face. The only real difference between the two was frankly appearance, the tail, and the lance was differently shaped. And was also a bomb. No freaking way to tell how much of a strength increase was gained because he'd already destroyed the Vizard state in the first stage, and outclassing his bankai state after that is no remote case for anything, in fact had it been the reverse he'd have clearly gotten weaker instead.

The latest chapter shows that Ichigo has comparable strength to HG Aizen.

[Nicholas.Sama]

You keep arguing nature, but nowhere is it remotely clarified what the nature of their power means in terms of the less obvious ones. I mean sure we could guess a few and have mostly accurate answers in all likelihood. Yamamoto's is obvious for one. Kenpachi's has some kind of skull thing going on that I don't get. What about Ichigo's? Does his have to do with the coloration between bankai and shikai of his getsuuga or what? How about someone like Gin's? What's the nature of the power of a dude whose one ability is 'extending'. Suffice to say arguing nature doesn't mean jack if we don't know what nature means.

Now it's that it's not just the nature he speaks of, but also clarifies that it is dense and is potent, hence why there's a point to be had there, but nature is entirely out of the question because it's meaning is unclear.

hollow reitsu is usually classified as "rough"....(that's the only distiguishing difference i've heard)

ulquiorra's lack of clarity was entirely the point of it being different in the first place.

[kkck]

You seem to be missing what 'nature' means. In times in which Hitsugaya and Rukia lose control of, or in Rukia's case trip balls on their power, stuff around or near them starts to freeze. That's their nature, which given their abilities is blatantly obvious. What does this mean? They have power over ice. Well duh.

What the hell does Ulquiorra's power being compared to an ocean mean? The only thing we have on his abilities is that he favors black cero, which all released espada can use, and he makes his lance a nuke of sorts. Is it like that because the nature of his power is compression, akin to Ichigo's bankai? Is it like that because of the nature of second releases in general? Does it have any relation to when his power blotted out the sky and rained down upon his release? What the hell does 'nature' of the power mean for someone who, unlike Hitsugaya and Rukia, doesn't have an obvious elemental factor to fall back on?

You keep arguing nature, but nowhere is it remotely clarified what the nature of their power means in terms of the less obvious ones. I mean sure we could guess a few and have mostly accurate answers in all likelihood. Yamamoto's is obvious for one. Kenpachi's has some kind of skull thing going on that I don't get. What about Ichigo's? Does his have to do with the coloration between bankai and shikai of his getsuuga or what? How about someone like Gin's? What's the nature of the power of a dude whose one ability is 'extending'. Suffice to say arguing nature doesn't mean jack if we don't know what nature means.

Now it's that it's not just the nature he speaks of, but also clarifies that it is dense and is potent, hence why there's a point to be had there, but nature is entirely out of the question because it's meaning is unclear.

I don't agree with anything of what you said. Rukia and hitsugaya freeze stuff with their reiatsu, yama burns them and so on.... That does not change that what they use is regular, ordinary reiatsu. Ishida specifically said ulquiorra's reiatsu was different enough to not even be considered reiatsu, that has nothing to do with what specific powers he might have.