Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/15/14 - 9/21/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 510 (2)
Singles Tier List
Only characters that had at least one match (or currently have one) are to be ranked. For Doubles, only players that played together before may be ranked.
Concerning the Tier Lists for Prefecturals, Tokyo, Kanto and Nationals, the above criteria apply to the given time frame.
Last edited by Kaoz; June 18, 2014 at 02:20 AM.
who do you guys think is the number one middle school doubles pair now? two wings of kyushu, data tennis team, shishido and ootori, marui and jackal, golden pair of seigaku? my vote is for seigaku's golden pair, their main weakness was that oishi wasn't as good physically as eiji(lost 6-1 at tiebreak, and eiji gave up that one game on purpose), but after his mountain training that weakness is gone, plus they got synchro. although, i think when the two wings lost the high schoolers that beat them mentioned some "wild beast syncro", or maybe that was just a bad manga translation
BM Kirihara > Triple counters
Upgrade > BM Kirihara
DM Kirihara = Upgrade
One rule of PoT is that of progressive revelation. That which is revealed "after" is generally better than that which is revealed "before." For example, think of the Kantou tournament layout, and how each team Seigaku plays is better than the last. (Which is pretty much true of a tournament, by definition). Kirihara obtained devil mode AFTER Fuji and Shiraishi's match. This suggests that Kirihara is the bigger threat by the time the Nationals finals come around.
Devil mode makes Kirihara's "speed" much faster than Shiraishi, Tezuka, and Tachibana. You have to agree with me on this one, right? Devil mode also raises Kirihara's power, as he flings Krauser away with a single swoop of the racquet. I would say this makes his power above Tezuka (excluding Hyakuren), most likely Shiraishi (gold gauntlet on), and possibly Tachibana. Tachibana is definitely the power of the three, but it would be tough to see where Wild Lion is, in relation to Devil mode.
No. When I talk about Kirihara generally, I speak of him at his greatest height. Which would be Devil mode. That in mind, I said Devil mode was around the same as Shiraishi.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
What?...no. Renji is third best on Rikkaidai. Konomi made that abundantly clear. That includes Niou. If Renji played singles 2 against Fuji (who is third best on Seigaku), I would put my money on Renji. He is one of the most grossly underestimated characters, because of Konomi screwing up his own tier system with Inui's win in Kantou. What Renji did in the Nationals was the written proof that Konomi admits to royally screwing up his intentions, and the 5-0 win was his way of making up for it. I predicted on this very forum that it would happen, before the Nationals even began. I told everyone that Renji was going to wipe the floor with Inui in doubles, and he did.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
That doesn't mean anything. Fuji never plays against data tennis, so that is kind of hard to be confident in. Not only that, but Fuji needs to be on par with his opponent for CE to even work. Remember, Echizen had to coach Fuji (to use the frame) in his match with Kirihara for him to actually win. Muga Kirihara was better even with Fuji's CE. That means CE does not automatically mean "I'm better."Quote:
Last edited by Fayte; January 12, 2013 at 02:05 AM.
Yanagi is in a messed up position because he's supposed to be part of the big 3, which means he's at least a match against Sanada (he likely can't beat him but it'd be around 6-4), and yet since Inui is sort of his eternal rival, he ends up about equal to Inui who probably won't even get a game off Sanada. Of course even Sanada said that Yanagi was too caught up on his past with Inui which is why he lost, but Yanagi never quite escaped the shadow of being Inui's friend simply because Inui is way below the Sanada tier of characters.
NPOT gives Devil Form a power of 4, speed of 5, and mental of 5. It's retconned to have an endurance of 0.5 never mind that Kirihara used it while he's about to collapse and then pretty much owned Krauser without breaking a sweat from a 0-5 deficit, but apparently he did that with 0.5 stamina. Assuming even a normal endurance (Kirihara has base endurance of 3, and really should be a buff to endurance because he looks in better shape after Devil Form than before against Krauser) that means he has the highest stats in those 4 areas combined compared to any MSer with known stats. Sure his technique probably does suck (NPOT gives 1.5) but it's not like you need technique when your style involves hitting the ball in people's face with sheer power and speed.
Last edited by Phantron; January 12, 2013 at 03:39 AM.
Also, if you stick to that idea for Fuji and Akaya, wouldn't Fuji come out on top in the end, given that he gained Hoshi Hanabi after Kirihara got DM?
Fayte don't try to defend Kirihara (the guy who used to be Rikkai S2 and then became the weak part of D2) against Fuji (Konomi's lover). I know how much you hate Fuji, but it's useless lol.
We haven't seen a decent Singles match with Shishido nor Marui. I think that Marui could be below Kamio... and I don't know about Shishido.
Kaoz, you think that Yanagi could beat Yamato? He only has 1 tech (a great one though), and I think that Yanagi would collect enough data during a match to be able to return it.
Is my doubles list alright?
Platinum Pair - Yagyuu/Niou
Data Pair - Inui/Yanagi
Golden Pair - Kikumaru/Oishi
Two Wings of Kyūshū - Tachibana/Chitose
Emerald Pair - Kaidou/Inui
Champion Pair - Marui/Jackal
Dream Pair - Kikumaru/Fuji
Silver Pair - Shishido/Ootori
Idiot Pair - Konjiki/Hitouji
Jimmies - Minami/Higashikata
Bronze Pair - Kurobane/Amane
Last edited by Hardy; January 12, 2013 at 12:07 PM.
Kirihara will take out the counters from 1 to 4 effortlessly you're right.
But I still think 5th Counter is going to take games. I'm sorry but it took Shiraishi 3 games so it has to take games.
I don't see Kirihara getting a clean return of 5th Counter really for at least 5 games. Its not like he can become Tezuka.
So the plot armored 6th Counter cannot be returned by Nationals!Kirihara (basically the current Kirihara lol).
So even if after at least 5 games Kirihara handles 5th Counter cleanly, Fuji has Closed Eyes + Cord Ball, he out-rallied what Konomi implied was rather close to Tezuka's own rallying skill for storyline purposes. Fuji's rivals are Tezuka and Shiraishi who view him as a rival too.
You have to remember that in Closed Eyes, Fuji can hit the ball back with the frame of his racket back at Regionals he did it. (Ridiculous I know).
Fuji counters TPhantom, Hyakkuren, SKnK things which Kirihara simply has no chance in coping with.
Closed Eyes is a massive boost. You really have to look past how ridiculous it is and read what the manga stated man.
Fact of the matter is Yanagi shut down Kirihara like a bitch. Fuji can defeat Yanagi.
You have to let it go that Kirihara has no chance at this stage against Fuji. Not to say that Kirihara isn't awesome.
I don't see Yanagi doing that damage to Shiraishi. In fact, I expect Shiraishi to pull off a win over Yanagi or vice-versa.
Shiraishi VS Yanagi would be close either way. No shut down at all.
But then for some reason he made them even again in the revolution. In an awful way that actually makes it look like Inui > Yanagi since he unnecessarily had Yanagi freaking pass out like a dying dog. He got trashed worse than Inui did at Nationals.
Niou has Tezuka Phantom, Hyakkuren, SKnK and according to Yukimura he can become Yuki and Sanada.
He has Yuki, Sanada and Tezuka at his disposal. FuuRinKaZan apparently completely handled Yanagi according to himself at Regionals.
I'm not expecting Niou to have Rai though.
I think becoming Tezuka will defeat Yanagi.
Completely open to contradictions on it though.
Fuji shat on SKnK. This means he will shit on Data. Then there's the plot armor Fuji and Tezuka have that Data Tennis doesn't work on them since not even Inui their close friend has their data lol. If Inui doesn't have their data then Yanagi definetely doesnt haha.
Fuji would trash Yanagi dude.
Also, Closed Eyes did mean he got better though. Sure Ryoma helped him out just there but wasn't it Fuji's match point iirc?
It was Fuji's game for the taking totally.
Fuji right now would beat Yanagi though. Not like Yanagi has improved that much.
And since you like to anticipate progress for characters Fayte, I think there few are MSers who have as much overdue and anticipated improvement than Fuji if any.
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------
How can Marui lose to Kamio?
Forgetting he was involved in the wrecking of Momo/Kaido whilst wearing power wrists?
Remember that Mojuu No Aura has different effects on people. On Tachibana it gives him a wonderful boost that keeps him at the top end of the MS tier with Chitose, Shiraishi, Kite, Fuji, not too far off from Atobe etc.
The effect it has on Kamio and Ishida Tetsu well... LOL.
Kamio with Mojuu no Aura was shown to be a tier below Kenya when he took off the weights. Now please don't tell me that Kenya is necessarily great haha.
If Marui can now return the Execution Method shots, Jack Knife etc. What damage can Sonic Bullet really do?
Kamio in theory can't score a point. Marui's net play is second best in the series as far as we know. (Kimijima shut him down)
So its Marui's win comfortably.
I think Marui's in the right place.
What I meant was Atobe (the first main adversary) came first to pave the way as foreshadowing for Sanada. The former was the lesser boss battle. The whole thing resets for the Nationals, picking up with Kite. Kite clears the way for Atobe, Atobe clears the way for Kintarou, Kintarou clears the way for Yukimura. It's progressive.
I never said he didn't. In fact, I already said Fuji would win because I said the result of the match would be the same as Niou. It would come down to Hoshi Hanabi that would make Fuji come out on top. But my point is, Kirihara would overcome everything else. Fuji would still win, yes, but my whole argument is to show that it really would be a closer match than people think. It would be very similar to their match in Kantou.Originally Posted by Kaoz
Nowhere did I say it wouldn't take games lol. My point was Kirihara would eventually hit cord balls consistently.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
Aint no way Shiraishi is doing anything against Renji with his gauntlet on. Shiraishi really doesn't have anything against Renji, especially during the Nationals. What's he gonna do, Bible tennis? Renji has data on that. There is nothing more predictable.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
This is exactly why you can't judge PoT1 according to PoT2. You need to keep them separate. Like I said, Konomi wasn't even thinking about the revolution when he was writing PoT1, because PoT2 wasn't even a thought. Because of this, we MUST remember that Renji was the third member of the Rikkai 3. Yes, Niou was great. But Renji was better. Niou was not the third best. Renji was, despite everything Niou accomplished.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
Kirihara isn't going to hit cord balls. It's simply not matching his style at all (he's pretty much straight up power + speed). Had Fuji played Kirihara in the final match, his 5th counter will be straight up countered by devil form but then Fuji's 6th counter will do something else instead and he'd still win. It's actually really silly to have a counter only against cord balls because it might as well be a counter only for Shiraishi. Anyone weaker than Shiraishi can't hit the 5th counter over at all to begin with so it's useless on them, and people above Shiraishi's tier, like Tezuka, can hit the 5th counter cleanly so it wouldn't matter either way.
Shiraishi didn't hit Cord Balls on purpose. He hit them because that was the best he could achieve.
I don't think we can confirm DM!Kirihara > Shiraishi and I think Shiraishi would still beat him anyway, but DM!Kirihara will be hitting 5th Counter against the cord because that is all that it allows.
His technique stat wasn't so great in DM anyway. So there is no way he will be beating 5th Counter before the 4 games mark let alone hitting a cord ball from it.
Fuji will kill Kirihara at Nationals.
Currently, had Konomi allowed Kirihara to have Angel Mode in Singles then Kirihara would be beastly again. AM!Kirihara would be fantastic lol.
Simply by law of character neglection, Fuji would comfortably take out Kirihara at Nationals. There is just way too much evidence for Fuji.
Its not even whether your reasoning is right or wrong, its just the difference in constant improvements that Fuji got in comparison to Kirihara simply because Fuji has never been outside of the Top3 in Character popularity.
I agree on Yanagi being able to beat Shiraishi but not Fuji. Closed Eyes as insane as it is, is a 100% counter to Data Tennis.
At the same time, with no waste movement I see Shiraishi giving a strong fight back against Yanagi.
I just can't see a shutdown.
But for Yanagi VS Niou at Nationals I can agree with your point but ZSS won't be returned imo.
If it aces Ochi and at one point was acing Sanada iirc?
Niou can beat him with a bit of SKnK to be able fight evenly with Data Tennis.
With Cicada I see Yanagi beating TPhantom.
Reminds me that another person to get held back a tier is Yanagi. Along with Kirihara, Chitose, Tachibana and Kite.
All guys who at Nationals could have taken on Fuji and Shiraishi and should have creamed Inui, yet now Konomi made Inui even with Yanagi again they would make a good match.
And then Fuji got CE and Shiraishi got GG removal to give them the edge now.
And the fact that Yanagi, Kirihara, WoK and Kite haven't made significant Singles improvement.
Yagyuu/Niou pair is S Rank at least.
if Atobe in Synchro by himself was able to outplay Ochi/Mouri pair, then TWO Yagyuu's on the court will do the job.
Atobe is only one tier above Ochi.
Yagyuu is only 2 tiers under Mouri.
WoK the moment we see them in Synchro, in theory they should rocket up the tier list.
They should be Top10 level. I think we can see that in Singles Tachibana or Chitose would have probably gave Mitsuya and Hakamada good matches or won against them so WoK in Synchro would tear apart Mutsu/Mutsu.
But that's when we see them synchro lol.
Marui in theory can't lose to Kikumaru either. if Marui can shit on Dunk Smash with Power Wrists on with Super Rising then he can shit on Kikumaru Bazooka.
Of the two Serve and Volley players Marui has the greater net play.
Kikumaru will take games with Seal Step but you even said it yourself Konomi for some reason has Kikumaru only win 7-6 against Kai.
Even though with Sealed Step and a Good smash he should have won more comfortably.
He now has Wonder Castle which will allow Marui to be even with Kikumaru's volley reflexes.
Marui probably goes top of that tier or bottom of tier above.
The tier needs fixing at the bottom.
Hiyoshi and Akutagawa will DEFINETELY beat Ibu Shinji.
I've already explained why.
Last edited by Airgrimes; January 13, 2013 at 08:48 AM.
^Updated low tier.
There's something I don't get about SDM!Akaya... why can't Shiraishi just stand on the side of the court and encourage him that way? It worked for Niou when he made Akaya enter DM after all.
As for the doubles list, I'd still like to include Atobe/Niou, Date/Ban etc. Don't agree with Niou/Yagyuu in S though; a major point in Atobe/Niou's favour is that it lets Atobe use AK, Yagyuu doesn't have anything comparable (Laser is a good shot, but I'd expect Ochi and Mouri to return it without too much trouble).
And no techniques can even be used in Synchro.
Simply because Atobe w/ Synchro boost beat Ochi and Mouri by himself, two Yagyuus w/ Synchro boost should be able to be on Ochi/Mouri's level.
The only Synchro users we have seen in action are Washio/Suzuki and Oishi/Kikumaru. The latter is made up of a Bottom Tier and Low Tier player.
Washio/Suzuki I expect to be individually weak and about Lower Mid tier. Mutsu/Mutsu probably Mid tier.
All we saw was one Top tier player in Synchro by himself and he beat Ochi/Mouri. So two Yagyuu's (Upper Mid tier) should be on Ochi/Mouri level right?
Simply because Anybody/Niou allows for Synchro.
Its not like Atobe even used any techniques whilst he outclassed them by himself in Synchro. He was already exhausted on top of that.
The boost that Synchro provides in Doubles is significant. Yagyuu/Niou are a natural combo anyway.
At the camp, Rikkai & Shitenhouji are the only school paired up with who they thought they would be most effective with.
Yukimura/Sanada, Yagyuu/Niou, Yanagi/Kirihara & Marui/Jackal all powerful pairs so you can see they all went with the intent to win.
Shiraishi/Kenya, Chitose/Tooyama, Konjiki/Gin same there also.
Unlike Fuji who was trying to lose on purpose imo by being an awesome brother and pairing with Yuuta.
Chinen should go either above or below Tanishi in that tier. Since we saw him annihalate Aoi, and he beaet Tanishi 17-15 at the camp.
Its clear where he stands.
Niou didn't do ZSS in the Nationals. He couldn't. You are applying PoT2 knowledge to PoT1.Originally Posted by Airgrimes
After rereading the chapter, I don't think Angel Mode is much of an improvement at all. If you remember the match, Kirihara and Shiraishi were both getting owned. Dear Airgrimes, This shows that Base Kirihara was on par with the same Shiraishi who beat Fuji. The entire problem they faced from the beginning, was not letting Kirihara go devil mode. That would have boosted Kirihara above both opponents for an easy win. But because of Renji, Shiraishi wouldn't allow him to do that. Kirihara goes Devil mode for 3 seconds, and hits Shiraishi's arm, revealing the golden gauntlet. Shiraishi takes it off and instantly gets a boost in ability. Then, after Shiraishi makes repetitive and unnecessary comments on Kirihara's hair, Kirihara becomes a nice guy. At this point, "Base" Kirihara was slightly altered. Angel mode is NOT a devil mode replacement, because shortly after happy-time-kiri gets a few points, he gets nailed in the face. His opponents say between gauntless Shiraishi and Happy-time-Kiri, Shiraishi is the stronger of the two. So "angel mode" is pretty useless. I mean sure, maybe it makes base Kirihara a little better, but that isn't sufficient. Which is why Kirihara goes Anti-Devil mode and turns on the hax. He smashes the ball, Fruitcake barely gets it, Shiraishi hits the win.Originally Posted by Kaoz
We constantly put the emphasis on the "angel mode," that we forget it only got Kirihara a couple of points before it was rendered useless.
Kirihara Akaya (Devil Akaya)
Power: 2.5 (4)
Speed: 4 (5)
Technique: 3 (1.5)
Stamina: 3 (0.5)
Mental: 1 (5)
But, his mental raises... a lot, and it becomes far better than Shiraishi's .
How much someone is affected by the opponent's actions."
Maybe he would find another way to beat Heca...
Wonder Castle? Bish please, Kikumaru has Moon Volley!
Are there any other pairs?
---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------
Kaoz, don't you think that Sengoku>Kai ? His motion vision would be enough to beat Shukuchihō, and that + his tech would seal Viking Horn.
My bad I completely forgot about Niou not having ZSS I got confused there.
But why should we assume Yanagi will be able to defeat TPhantom, Hyakkuren and SKnK?
You don't think you're overrating Yanagi?
I think we're looking at different points now though lol. You're arguing for Kirihara VS Fuji at Nationals S2, whilst I'm arguing for after the Nationals ended a match between Nationals!Kirihara VS Nationals!Fuji.
Nationals!Fuji kicks the ass of Nationals!Kirihara. But had they met during S2 when Fuji didn't get Plot armor then it would have been a tight match I agree.
Konomi obviously doesn't love Kirihara as much as Fuji if like you said he got nailed in the face even after he tried to be in a good mood.
Kirihara at Nationals had DM sure, but what does Kirihara have to break down Fuji?
5th Counter followed by 6th Counter
And for when Fuji is serving just use CE + Cord Ball. It's all Fuji's game for the taking.
Remember Konomi had it stated that Fuji had surpassed Tezuka as long as you remove Tezuka's ZSS of course.
So its out of the question that Kirihara would have been shut out.
Right now, there is a day where Kirihara would be shut out. And its now. At this moment Kirihara is a deadman against Fuji. Wouldn't be able to do a thing.
Different tiers. Kirihara can lose to Kaidoh at this stage in the story.
Niou would have kicked Kirihara's ass the same way.
And Dear Fayte, that argument to suggest Kirihara and Shiraishi were equal because they were both getting owned is a bit silly.
In fact no, its just stupid no offense.
Marui/Jackal owned Oishi/Kikumaru prior to Synchro. Were Kikumaru and Oishi the same level? No Kikumaru would wipe the floor with Oishi.
Kimijima/Tohno owned Marui/Kite. Are Kite and Marui on par? Hell no.
Personally, I think people forget that the common factor in PoT which I like is that even if you have two Singles players who better than the opponents individually, (Shiraishi and Akaya are above Miyako and Matsudaira) as long as the weaker guys play doubles better then the stronger two are still vulnerable to an ass-kicking.
Examples: Ootori/Shishido to Kaidoh/Inui, Ochi/Mouri to Atobe/Niou before the plot armor kicked in, Yamabuki fodder to Fuji/Kawamura etc.
And regarding Kirihara and Shiraishi, Shiraishi was simply better as Miyako says "As I thought, the weakness in this doubles is... YOU" to Kirihara.
So he could see for a while that Kirihara was the weaker guy. And he took the sucker out.
---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------
Atobe doesn't have AK whilst in Synchro. And Atobe/Niou got creamed by Ochi/Mouri when they didn't have Synchro.
Ochi let them have the first set as he knew Niou wouldn't make it to the next set.
They got outlasted and really and truly the first set was won by Ochi/Mouri and then Ochi/Mouri creamed their way through the 2nd set and won the match.
Atobe left Synchro at the end of the match to use WoI + AK.
So really Yagyuu/Yagyuu in Synchro should be capable of doing something close to what Atobe by himself did in Synchro.
Yagyuu is Kaidoh level and they are basically the same threat. You're telling me ONE Atobe in synchro would destroy Two Kaidoh's in Synchro?
Marui mind-raped Kikumaru and Oishi at the net by himself. Kikumaru has his acrobatics sure but Marui is a far better net player than Kikumaru.
Kikumaru can't predict Tightrope Walking, Iron Pole or Temporal Hell as shown at Nationals.
And Marui defeated him at the net with that.
Moon Volley can't be used at the net. Kikumaru isnt a Net Play beast like Kimijima who wiped Marui at the net. Moon volley has to be used near the back of the court.
And we know Kikumaru isn't a baseliner. Kikumaru has not shot that can get past Wonder Castle or Super Rising besides Moon Volley which requires him to be at the back of the court leaving him vulnerable to Marui's net play.
Kikumaru can't win lol.
Tanishi with 4ball in theory should go a little higher. Tanishi with 4 ball should be able to defeat Kai.
but it still stands that prior to 4ball Chinen was better than Tanishi. So Chinen must be in the same tier as Kai and Tanishi.