Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Singles Tier List
Only characters that had at least one match (or currently have one) are to be ranked. For Doubles, only players that played together before may be ranked.
Concerning the Tier Lists for Prefecturals, Tokyo, Kanto and Nationals, the above criteria apply to the given time frame.
Last edited by Kaoz; June 18, 2014 at 02:20 AM.
Out of those, Hirakoba can't beat Kenya. Hirakoba lost his match precisely because of Fuji. He wouldn't have gain that much points if deadweight Kuwamura is not on Fuji's side. Hiyoshi might be same level as Kenya, but I'm not too certain on it. There's not too much to weight him on. Marui will probably be better in doubles, but his new tech can get own easily by lob in singles. I doubt Kikumaru can beat Kenya in singles. I don't think Kikumaru become as good in singles as Fuji at any point in PoT.
And Momoshiro+Kenya getting shat by 1st stringer doesn't show that they are weak at all. That's the proof how strong 1st stringer are in general. They should be stronger than Yamato, who is not 1st stringer. That's really normal that those two get shat by 1st stringer. Look at Yukimura, boss of rikkai who even shat on National Sanada. PoP Ryoma beats Yukimura pretty much 6-0 while going easy on him. Does that means Yukimura and Sanada is weak? Hell no.
Why? Look at Yamato. He's not a 1st stringer. But he fight evenly with national Tezuka. Taira/Hara are 1st stringer. Even if those two might be 1st court material in singles, court still would dictate that they can play national Tezuka to an extent. That suggests Yamato/1st stringer would wipe WoK butt the same Chitose got own hard by Tezuka in semifinal.
Is it stupid that tiers change so much now? Yeah, I think it is too. But well, Konomi wrote it all up. And that's the ways that he's setting it up to be.
If Yamato is 1st stringer tier in singles, WoK is 1st court or lower.
If Yamato is 1st court tier in singles, WoK is 2nd court or lower.
If Yamato is 2nd court tier in singles, WoK is 3rd court or lower.
The only way that WoK would be 11-20 tier in Singles would be if Yamato is G10 level. That's too far fetch for me.
2nd court in the manga aren't really representative of their power. We knows that many of those players are 1st stringer tier, hence they won against 2nd court with no problem. If we take the one that beat and will be challenging 1st stringer out, they'll be a much weaker court.
He doesn't do Entaku shot until he takes off his gaunlet, really, so it's not an indicative of National Shiraishi and 3rd court. Entaku Shot is hardly Shiraishi main style of offense, anyways. In his match with Fuji as well as data book, it emphasizes that basic tennis is where Shiraishi is truly beast at.
I'm not convinced that he'll be able to return it given more time. Tannhauser serve is seen by Hiyoshi 100+ times, hence he can answer it. Remember how much trouble Echizen had with big bang? Or how untouchable Mach serve is?
Anyways, Shiraishi only return it after gauntlet came off. Anything more is simply speculating.
To be honest, I just think Konomi doesn't think much when he's writing those past matches. Tiers in SPoT won't be this mess up if he did. It just depends if you want the tier that reflected the manga or the your view of how things should be, I guess.
I show the page that display their power. If it is different, it won't be by much. I'll give it 0.5 more in Tachibana favor in terms of power. That page that I show you on Shiraishi also have the teammates also say that Shiraishi also had strength. You may want to add Shiraishi to that list. It is explicitly mention.
I always thought sane devil mode as angel mode. But this forum do have that discussion before. So I don't want to do that crap again.
And well, sane devil mode is Kirihara is devil mode without lowering his brain ability to think. I think that makes it stronger. If you disagree, but I don't really knows what to says. And Yamato is still there as proof WoK is fodder tier.
But well, if angel mode is not indicative of any improvement, Kirihara is crap tier right now, and vastly overrated. I'll go along with your argument. If you're right, while it might prove that 3rd court is pretty weak, it shows Kirihara as crap and total fodder in terms of current tier. Why? devil mode Kirihara got mope hard by Renji. Renji then proceed to get rock by merely no 17. This means Kirihara pretty much lost -6 to 6 to even almost lowest singles 1st stringer if that's the case. He's really overrated as a character.
Unless those guys gains any improvement, the only way they'll beat 1st stringer is by being in doubles.
Last edited by -Ken-; February 14, 2013 at 02:28 PM.
You aren't reading my posts it seems. I didn't even say WoK are 11-20 in Singles...
I believe Yamato is 1st Court level and WoK are 2nd Court. With Shiraishi also being 2nd Court. Kite also.
Personally, the BJB members that earned their way into 2nd Court I am not counting.
For example, for 2nd Court tier, I think you will OBVIOUSLY agree here, Tooyama, Echizen, Sanada and Niou were absolutely positively NOT 2nd Court tier.
So we remove them, we take the next best required 8/9 players (random order):
Yanagi, Inui, Momoshiro, Kaidoh, Kenya, Kawamura, Hiyoshi, Oishi/Jackal(In terms of Doubles)
This is a legit outlook on 2nd Court.
Where WoK, Kite and Shiraishi fit well.
WoK > 3rd Court level imo.
Matsudaira/Miyako were helpless against it.
Nationals!Shiraishi probably would have beaten them.
I think that's very indicative. Entaku Shot is a proportionate part of Shiraishi's offense regardless. Its known as his special move.
If Kirihara was returning it, why wouldn't Nationals!Shiraishi have been able to?
His reaction time didn't get any faster remember. So the only that lifted was his power and perhaps technique by 0.5? Well we know his Power raised by at least 1.0
Next, do you realise you're comparing Atobe and Ochi to Matsudaira lol?
Atobe and Ochi will shit on Matsudaira totally.
Tannhauser Serve > Flower Serve. Mach Serve >> Flower Serve.
Just remember, Flower Serve must have been returned due to six straight games, and Shiraishi's reaction time never increased. Something that people forget.
This means Nationals!Shiraishi and 3rdCourt!Shiraishi have the same reaction time so Nationals!Shiraishi after awhile would have returned Flower after some while.
And Ryoma was trolling for what could have been a large proportion of the game.
Everything I said about Nationals!Shiraishi was canon.
Shiraishi took off the gauntlet for his service game.
Considering Miyako confirms that Shiraishi's reactions didn't get any better it means that regardless of the gauntlet, Nationals!Shiraishi could have beaten them individually.
WoK > 3rd Court. Since WoK and Nationals!Shiraishi are all of one level.
Individually, 3rd Court were about below Nationals!Kirihara level and of course significantly above Krauser level. As he got really taken out.
He wouldn't have hit back Flower.
Individually the following of the 5th Court MSers were 2nd Court or higher:
Tezuka, Atobe, Chitose, Shiraishi, Tachibana, Kite, Akutsu, Ishida, Kirihara.
Discuss if you disagree please.
---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------
Also I would like to add MSers who haven't had Singles matches on to the tier.
Its not like we can't do it with reasoning.
Yeah, I agree with you that they aren't 3rd court now. But they aren't 1st stringer tier either, but you seem to agree on that too.
I'll put off gaunlet Shiraishi over WoK. I would rank National! Shiraishi about the same as them. I'm not sure by how much. Maybe 1st court. It could even be 1st stringer, considering that he completely dominated his opponents in the very similar way 1st stringer did at the end of their match. WoK are 2nd court at most, for now, though.
I also agree that all players can be add to rankings. If it's done with proper reasoning, it's no trouble. And technically, every single MS had their single match in 7 point tiebreaker at the beginning of SPoT. I'll just say just do it.
Hiyoshi > Kenya? I don't think so personally.
But with Hiyoshi look at it this way, Hiyoshi/Mukahi VS Inui/Kaidoh 5-2 before stamina drains them and Kaidoh rapes them.
Now that Hiyoshi no longer has a stamina problem would it not perhaps mean Hiyoshi can now take on Kaidoh?
Hiyoshi plays with a relentlessly Agressive style where Kaidoh wasn't really in a position to even hit Snakes.
So depending on how we take into account his stamina boost could see Hiyoshi fly up the tiers.
We have to remember Zaizen > Kenya as well. As Kenya says only the strongest deserve to be on that court as he lets Chitose replace him.
Implying that out of Zaizen/Chitose/Kenya, the weakest of them all is Kenya.
As for Marui, remember that the match isn't necessarily over if you lob Marui. Its not like he didn't sprint from the net to the baseline to catch a shot from Momo at the Regionals!Final then sprint back to the net in one rally.
Also, I think to lob Marui like Kimijima did efficiently in Singles isn't easy.
It seemed easy because Kimijima wasn't aiming to win, he was aiming to let Kite have a clear smash at Marui's head.
In Singles, the opponent will need to be able to hit volleys that land on the baseline on demand for it to be able to defeat Marui.
If everybody was stuneed Regionals!Sanada could do JUST THREE in a row, then Kenya cannot do more than 5-7 even at this stage.
I don't think any random lob just defeats Marui, it has to properly go to the baseline. Since of course he could sprint back and reach it otherwise.
In Doubles he had Kite to get it back so he wouldn't have made any attempt to chase it.
Its not like many players in the series can hit lobs on demand at the net to land on the baseline.
Kimijima The Negotiator is beast at the net.
I'll also remind you that Hiyoshi can't even return Tornado Snake when it is use. It's just that Kaidoh finish that tech too late. And Kaidoh without gyro laser/tornado snake combo aren't that scary at all. Inui/Kaidoh get crush by Yanagi/Kirihara fairly easily, especially before Kaidoh pull his tech out. Not to mention Inui is a different beast who can actually beat someone who beast Renji now. It's totally different game than before.
Zaizen > Kenya in PoT. There's no arguing with that. However, my point is just to show Kenya as not a total bag who would be helpless against WoK. He'll win some balls against him in similar way he win againt Shiraishi. He'll lost, but he won't be helpless. My point is simply that Kenya would be able to fend the ball back and forth until Momoshiro hit it with Black Jack Knife. Kenya speed is incredible, after all. His purpose in that pair is court coverage until Momoshiro hit BJK.
Fair point on Marui. People who had screentime in SPoT had it real good.
This will come out of nowhere... but how would Kenya return Fuji's first 4 counters?
I mean, the fact that Kenya scored against Shiraishi doesn't mean that he's better than Fuji. I actually think that Oshitari would have some serious problems witth Habu.
The things about 4 counter Fuji is that his move can be return by anyone, provide they have enough base stat. If Kenya was "fast" and can do well enough against Shiraishi, his stat can't be that bad. He won't 6-0 4 counter Fuji or anything, or else he'll be on par with Shiraishi, which he is not. It doesn't have to be a stomp. It just shows that Kenya is stronger than 4 counter Fuji. It's tier at work here.
Why wouldn't it means he's better than Fuji? When Fuji fail to score against Shiraishi. If it's just " Kenya scored against Shiraishi". Sure, it doesn't mean anything. But it surely means something when 4 counter Fuji get embarass by Shiraishi.
Sanada fails to score against Yukimura. PoP Echizen score against Yukimura. Sanada can still be stronger than PoP Echizen.
So, why not?
How would Oni beat Yukimura? It's just tier. Simply as that.
Last edited by -Ken-; February 14, 2013 at 09:04 PM.
I don't know why Fuji's moves are so highly overrated consider none of them satisfy the 'cannot be returned normally by equal tier opponent' criteria. Rai is an example of such a move. There's no way for an equal tier to return it normally (there's absolutely nothing normal about how Yukimura or Tezuka dealt with Rai to defeat it). On the other hand 5th counter can be returned normally by an equal tier opponent (Shiraishi) and that's his best unconditionally usable move. Let's analyze all his moves:
1st - This seems to be Fuji's staple move and is actually a pretty good move, though it's in general less effective than ZSD as it still require the opponent hitting a certain way, and for whatever reason his opponent always sees it coming too, unlike ZSD which the opponent usually cannot tell when it's coming. I surmise there must be something really obvious when Fuji is attempting this move which causes all his opponent to immediately run up to the net to stop it, which greatly reduces the usefulness of this move.
2nd - This move is useless. It can be overcome by strength (Shiraishi), speed (Hirakoba), or skill (Niou illusioned as Tezuka). What's going to happen is the first time Fuji used this move, his opponent will attempt to overpower it with whatever their best stat is. If they can overpower it (and it clearly can be) then the move is useless. If they cannot overpower it, they'll just stop trying to smash the ball. Yes you end up giving up a good opportunity but it's still better than giving up a point. I suppose this move must have the 'manhood challenge' property like how most power shots can never be evaded, but even then there are a lot of ways to overpower this move.
3rd - Shiraishi has a textbook example of how to absolutely slaughter the basic form of this move. The upgraded version is actually pretty good, though its dependence on the wind means it cannot be used at will. It'd be totally useless if you're playing in an indoor court.
4th - This is completely a defensive move. As long as you don't do what Hirakoba did (use up all your energy in one big move for no apparent reason) it's just an annoyance at best.
5th - This move is actually really good, though it can be returned normally by an equal tier opponent (Shiraishi) and a higher level opponent can return it trivially (Niou as Tezuka), so it's basically a beat the weak move.
6th - Again another move that depends on outside factor (wind + cord ball). It might as well be the anti-Shiraishi move, because the only reason to use this move is if the opponent can return 5th counter but not cleanly, and Shiraishi is the only person who fits the description. A Tezuka-tier opponent will simply return the 5th counter cleanly and give Fuji no chance to use this. It's also useless against anyone weaker than him, because you already have 5th counter as a perfectly valid beat the weak move.
I don't think Kenya's line implies Zaizen > Kenya, only that Chitose > Kenya. Chitose's partner doesn't do anything regardless of who it is. If anything, Watanabe's line when he announces the order "Doubles 1, Kenya and Genius Zaizen-kun! Kenyaaaaaa, don't get in his way, ok?" is much more indicative of Zaizen > Kenya.
And yeah, Kenya should be able to return all the original triple counter, as well as 4th counter, with speed.
1) The National semifinals were ENTIRELY about 3 people. Chitose had the primary spotlight ever since he beat Tachibana and established himself as the muga genius. Shiraishi was in the periphery for being the mysterious captain of Shitenhouji. Behind both of them was Kintarou, who was shown to have absurd strength and tennis prowess. At this point of the series, Kenya was an irrelevant nobody, which is why he didn't even get to play. Konomi did not care about any other member on the team, as far as story goes. Shiraishi was WRITTEN to be Fuji's stepping stone. Obviously Konomi is going to write Shiraishi to destroy all Fuji has to offer, so he can evolve. If Kenya played against Fuji in singles, he would have been dominated because Kenya wasn't written for Fuji- Shiraishi was.
2) Kenya has past ties with Shiraishi specifically. Their tiebreak match was sentimental, which automatically means Konomi would at least give Kenya a few points to not make the match completely boring for us readers. This in no way suggests Konomi would allow Kenya to beat Fuji.
3) Your logic says Tezuka beat Sanada 3 years ago, Atobe beat Tezuka in Kantou, therefore Atobe is better than Sanada. Obviously you would never agree with this statement (nobody would), because we all know the little details of why these things were so. Those little details are precisely why your logic doesn't work with the above statement about Kenya.
4) Konomi never intended to make a PoT sequel. At the end of the series, where was Kenya? He was off-screen and forgotten about. Where was Fuji? currently winning freaking singles 2 against the best school in the series. That alone shows where Konomi's heart was for these characters. This is why to say, "Kenya would beat Fuji" is laughable.
2. Nothing suggests this at least in the manga.
3. No, Tezuka 3 years ago have PoHW. Tezuka that fights against Atobe and lose did not. I would think there's also chance that 3rd year Atobe can beat 1st year Sanada too, but that's just speculating. And this doesn't work now because Sanada earn at least Rai and In during those 3 years, so he move up the tier. Just as I always said, if someone shows he improve, he go up in the tier. This isn't that exception.
4. Kenya would beat Fuji is laughable. Kenya would beat 4 counter Fuji is not laughable. It doesn't matter if Konomi never intends to make the sequel. He make the sequel. And he draws event. I look at this event objectively.
He said only the strong. That line is extremely clear in meaning. It must clearly be meaning Kenya isn't stronger than either of them.
Considering Zaizen we can't be sure who besides Shiraishi and Osamu fully knew all the details of a battle between SKnK and HJnK.
Anybody Mid tier or above will wreck this move.
Hirakoba tier or below will struggle.
In other words, its an anti-Nakagauchi move also.
I reckon anybody in Mid tier who gradually tries to hit back 5th Counter as they hit the ball higher and higher against the net will meet it harshly as they reach the net.
This is also a move to hammer down the weak.
Also Disappearing Serve will take points imo.
Hirakoba was a useless dog against it. Hirakoba is at the bottom of Mid or the top of the Low tier.
And Shiraishi shat on it but he is towards the top of the tier.
THe only logical assumption is that it will give Kenya trouble.
Although I agree Revolution!Kenya > 4thCounter!Fuji
Yes he pulled a scumbag move by trying to intercept the the Doubled Return Brilliant Insight rally and looked like a dog with a racket but I don't think discipline was really a factor. Its the Nationals. Why wouldn't Zaizen listen to his coach?
He isn't a member of Higa.
---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------
In that situation sure Hiyoshi would win?
Since Hiyoshi only lost due to lack of stamina. If at least Hiyoshi had stamina since it was at 5-2 matchpoint after all.
Personally I think we are underrating how strong a Hiyoshi with solid stamina is.
And I'm not comparing Yanagi/Kirihara pair to Inui/Kaidoh here lol.
Although now that would be one of those amazing matches we will never see after Konomi made Inui equal to Renji again.
Kenya against somebody of Taira/Hara was a useless dog.
Nationals!Momoshiro/Revolution!Kenya was an awful pair. They really sucked. Its not until Momoshiro got his upgrade in BJK did it change.
While its true his Speed is amazing, if they meet Tara/Hara level ever again then Kenya will again be helpless no?
I'm not even going to continue arguing against WoK since in theory WoK will kick Kenya/Momo's asses until Chitose gets hit with a BJK or Tachibana takes too many BJK's. In theory after a while, WoK cannot win due to Momoshiro. Not Kenya at all. Kenya is in fact WoK's path to victory. I hope you can see that.
Last edited by Airgrimes; February 15, 2013 at 12:12 PM.
He just got hit with Kaidoh's trap.
And that's in doubles, where Kaidoh drain him with only half the energy because Kaidoh would only hit half a ball. Grant, his stamina weakness is better now. But in the current format of 3 set+in singles where he'll be draining twice as fast, I would't put Hiyoshi above Kaidoh. And that's not taking into account Tornado/Gyro combo.