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Thread: Singles Tier List

  1. #1
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Singles Tier List

    Singles Tier List

    Spoiler: U-17 Singles Revised (In Progress) show


    Spoiler: U-17 Singles show


    Spoiler: Prefecturals - Tokyo - Kanto - Nationals show


    Only characters that had at least one match (or currently have one) are to be ranked. For Doubles, only players that played together before may be ranked.

    Concerning the Tier Lists for Prefecturals, Tokyo, Kanto and Nationals, the above criteria apply to the given time frame.
    Last edited by Kaoz; June 18, 2014 at 02:20 AM.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    4th counter description from wiki? Wikipedia aren't a good source. The only time that it does that effect is during match with Rin, who put everything into Giant Habu. What does it ever do against anyone else? Nothing.

    And spinless ball aren't hard to return. The more spin on the ball, the harder it is to return.
    Its straight from what happened in the manga however.
    Against Tezuka he pretty much just brought out 4thCounter on a shot that wasn't really spin based.
    Like Sanada's Rin, it doesn't have to be against a move that is strongly spin based.

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    True... CE doesn't change anything though.

    Kenya has 4ball... interesting, good thing they only play with 1.
    Eh I dunno... That is also how I feel about this series too. As in who cares about Xball since we use just 1, but after the insanity happening right now that is Oni VS Tooyama we may have to seriously take the Xball crap into account.

    ---------- Post added at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    How does speed alone beat Bible Tennis, making him able to score 3 points? PERFECT Tennis? It doesn't make sense. That's Plot Power.
    While your arguments have not been wrong at all,
    I think its hard to put those points down to Plot Power since the score of Kenya losing had zero effect on the plot unless it was 7-5 or above.
    We have no reason to assume they aren't 3 genuine points.
    Remembering that Kenya is likely a bit more than just Speed as he isn't as simple as Kamio.
    He is a tier above Kamio.

  3. #812
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Its straight from what happened in the manga however.
    Against Tezuka he pretty much just brought out 4thCounter on a shot that wasn't really spin based.
    Like Sanada's Rin, it doesn't have to be against a move that is strongly spin based.
    I think he can use 4th counter on anything but I really don't see why this shot is hard to return. In POT, spin is basically the magic sauce of techniques. The more spin something has, the crazier stuff the shot can do (see Tezuka Phantom). Why would canceling out all the spin on a ball be a productive offensive move when the series always emphasized 'crazy spin = good'?

    With the way the 4th counter is depicted, that's a shot asking for an overhead smash, and that's what happens 2 out of 3 times in its usage history. It is not like Rin which is implicitly uncounterable for unknown reasons. That is, although the Rin looks like a perfectly smashable hit, we know Tezuka never smashed the ball back, and Yanagi likewise has a testimony about how he once had Sanada on the ropes but then got owned when Sanada used Rin (so clearly he can't do anything useful against Rin). Perhaps this is because Sanada is so strong that attempting to smash the Rin return would just expose you to something else (perhaps Ka or Rai), but the point is that Sanada can use Rin completely safely based on history, while 4th counter is most definitely not safe and results in an overhead smash 2 out of 3 times.

  4. #813
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Its straight from what happened in the manga however.
    Against Tezuka he pretty much just brought out 4thCounter on a shot that wasn't really spin based.
    Like Sanada's Rin, it doesn't have to be against a move that is strongly spin based.
    And against Tezuka, it did nothing. And against Shiraishi, it also did nothing.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c264/4.html

    Rin say that he put everything into that shot. That's why he feels defeat and his body don't want to move when Fuji use the 4th counter. Kenya had no such shot. I don't see how 4th counter would do anything here at all.

    Spin is the condition for the "counter" to works perfectly way it did. The only time we saw it had that effect is when it's use against spin shot. It's call "counter" for a reason.

    All these discussion make me knows how WoK/Fuji/Jirou win the tournament. Team composed of the most overrated characters in the series.
    Last edited by -Ken-; February 17, 2013 at 12:19 AM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And against Tezuka, it did nothing. And against Shiraishi, it also did nothing.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c264/4.html

    Rin say that he put everything into that shot. That's why he feels defeat and his body don't want to move when Fuji use the 4th counter. Kenya had no such shot. I don't see how 4th counter would do anything here at all.

    Spin is the condition for the "counter" to works perfectly way it did. The only time we saw it had that effect is when it's use against spin shot. It's call "counter" for a reason.

    All these discussion make me knows how WoK/Fuji/Jirou win the tournament. Team composed of the most overrated characters in the series.
    I don't think 4th is so much a 'counter' but rather a purely defensive move. Counter implies it's supposed to have some kind of offensive value and the only person it's worked on is on a relatively low tier guy who ran out of stamina. The way 4th is used is more like 'look I managed to return this shot!' I suppose he can try to trick people into doing an overhead smash and then counter it, except he can simply lob the ball any other time too if that actually works.

    I think the problem with Fuji is that people assume Closed Eye is some kind of 'always on' buff. Fuji with Closed Eye is actually top tier, probably around Yukimura level of rallying, i.e. enough to defeat almost anyone with basic rally alone (he beat Tezuka illusion with that). However Closed Eye has a relatively short duration. Otherwise it'd be silly to not stay in Closed Eye form the whole time since it is unconditionally positive for him to use Closed Eye. Using the Niou game as a point of reference, Closed Eye lasts only 2 games as Fuji ran out of Closed Eye at the 6-5 (there's no reason why Closed Eye wouldn't work on the Shiraishi illusion if it works on the Tezuka illusion). So he picks up 2 games but after that it'd be pretty tough to pick up 4 more games with his moves, especially if we're talking about 4 counter Fuji. It feels like Fuji actually relies on the Disappearing Serve the next most to win games, which probably make sense since a serve does not depend on any external factors, but his serve always feel rather gimmicky. Big Bang feels more reliable than his serve and that's not even a very strong move.

    Another really weird thing is that despite almost every school have some kind of tennis guru (and often a data tennis type player), apparently nobody's ever figured out how easy Fuji's counters are to defeat. For 1st, 3rd, and 4th, all you do is just run up to the net. It doesn't matter which move he's using because they're all vulnerable while the ball just went past the net so just volley/smash it back before it lands. This even works on the upgraded version. In fact the path of the upgraded version becomes very unpredictable so it is even more important you hit the ball back before it can land and start doing crazy stuff. Second counter is a non-factor, because if you can't beat it then just don't smash the ball. Fifth counter is purely a test of tier, so either you're high tier enough to handle it or you're totally owned and nobody can save you. 4 counter Fuji should routinely be a victim of data tennis analysis. Perhaps this is why Fuji makes it very hard for anyone to get his data, though part of that is because Fuji routinely plays weak opposition where he has no need to use his special moves. He certainly can't hold back against an opponent like Shiraishi and it'd be really obvious how to beat his first 4 counters after watching a game like that.
    Last edited by Phantron; February 17, 2013 at 01:51 AM.

  6. #815
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And against Tezuka, it did nothing. And against Shiraishi, it also did nothing.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c264/4.html

    Rin say that he put everything into that shot. That's why he feels defeat and his body don't want to move when Fuji use the 4th counter. Kenya had no such shot. I don't see how 4th counter would do anything here at all.

    Spin is the condition for the "counter" to works perfectly way it did. The only time we saw it had that effect is when it's use against spin shot. It's call "counter" for a reason.

    All these discussion make me knows how WoK/Fuji/Jirou win the tournament. Team composed of the most overrated characters in the series.
    Spin isn't the "condition". Spin is when it is most effective.
    Sanada doesn't need the opponent to hit a spin shot to use Rin.
    Neither does Fuji as shown against Tezuka!Niou.

    ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    While its true I don't see 4thCounter as damaging Kenya that much.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Spin isn't the "condition". Spin is when it is most effective.
    Sanada doesn't need the opponent to hit a spin shot to use Rin.
    Neither does Fuji as shown against Tezuka!Niou.
    When exactly is that shown? From what I can see, he used it twice during the match. The first time against a doubled Houou Gaeshi, the second time against Entaku Shot. Both times the ball would have had a lot of spin. It's a counter designed against spin shots, of course it could be used against normal shots too, but it's inferior compared to his other options in those situations.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    When exactly is that shown? From what I can see, he used it twice during the match. The first time against a doubled Houou Gaeshi, the second time against Entaku Shot. Both times the ball would have had a lot of spin. It's a counter designed against spin shots, of course it could be used against normal shots too, but it's inferior compared to his other options in those situations.
    You're right, I'm including an anime-only scene in my memory.

  9. #818
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    You're right, I'm including an anime-only scene in my memory.
    Alright, so that's counter 1, 2, 4 out of the way.

    Dissapearing serve?

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c315/6.html

    What's that?

    I call that speed. Maybe that's just me. And Kenya have higher speed than Shiraishi, as far as I can tell.

    That lefts 3rd counter. Rin and Tezuka both had counter this move by moving fast enough to hit the ball and return it. Shiraishi also show that you can hit a ball back when it bounced back to its owner. It's hardly invincible.

    Now, if it's evolved triple counter, it's another story. But that's not 4 counter Fuji I'm talking about.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I call that speed. Maybe that's just me. And Kenya have higher speed than Shiraishi, as far as I can tell.
    I always saw that as efficient movement as opposed to speed.
    I strongly doubt Speed Demons Oshitari Kenya or Richard Sakata would be able to neatly pivot and spin round in such an elegant way.

    Disappearing Serve would probably take a game.
    Since that seemed to be about reactions, as opposed to speed for those who are unable to notice that the ball has flown in another direction.

    Although after seeing Shiraishi there, it would make perfect sense that Kenya uses speed to defeat it.

  11. #820
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I always saw that as efficient movement as opposed to speed.
    I strongly doubt Speed Demons Oshitari Kenya or Richard Sakata would be able to neatly pivot and spin round in such an elegant way.

    Disappearing Serve would probably take a game.
    Since that seemed to be about reactions, as opposed to speed for those who are unable to notice that the ball has flown in another direction.

    Although after seeing Shiraishi there, it would make perfect sense that Kenya uses speed to defeat it.
    Kenya's reaction isn't bad either, as shown here.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c308/4.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c308/5.html

    Reaction is pretty much short for reaction speed/time. Look at Kenya location on the court before he dissapear to return the ball. Disapearing serve is hardly mention to be faster than Hadokyuu. And the distance between defender and the serve ball should be shorter because a serve is, well, a serve. And that speed is with power ankles on, meaning his actual speed is higher.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c308/10.html

    This is National Kenya too. If we're talking about Revolution Kenya, his stat should be even higher. I don't think he will 6-0 4 counter Fuji, but winning is a very real possibility. His place in current tier shouldn't be "crap tier" for sure. He's hardly a crappy player that some people is saying he is.

    ---------- Post added February 18, 2013 at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was February 17, 2013 at 07:35 PM ----------

    If we're done here, can we get back on discussing where double players would go up in the tier? Here's my thought on the tier of characters you ask for.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    @Kenya/Zaizen/Yushi

    In truth, regardless of how Kenya is kick out of a pair instead of Zaizen, Zaizen still got own by Tezuka/Chitose, showing that he's not in their tier.

    So while Zaizen might > Kenya, we don't knows by how much. They're both mid tier as far as I'm concern. I'll actually put those 3 in this order

    Kenya
    Yuushi
    Zaizen

    Zaizen that we saw last is in semifinal match, and I don't doubt much that Kenya far improved his base stat since then with mountain camp training. I'll put National Kenya close to National Yuushi, but since Kenya got train by mountain camp training and Yuushi get train by U-17, I reckon he might improve more as shown by BJR vs 2nd court and 5th court vs 3rd court. So that's why I would put him above Yuushi. It's merely a speculation, though.

    @Jackal, do we knows his score against Marui at the beginning of the series? If so, we can speculate where he'll be.

    @Hiyoshi, I need to think about this more. His last match tells us nothing other than he got over his stamina issue.
    I also want to bring up Kaidoh.

    We knows he had Gyro Laser/Tornado Snake combo.

    And we also knows he had demon mode on tops of that. Demon mode+Gyro Laser/Tornado Snake combo should be really frightening, considering how Yanagi got moped around by simply the combo.

    I don't think we should ban demon mode off Kaidoh. Otherwise, we should do the same for Kirihara.

    They both had reasons for not using it. Inui only stop Kaidoh once when he's about to faint. And after what Yanagi say to Shiraishi, demon mode should not consider to be "normal" access for Kirihara anymore. If that's the case, and we're not taking Kaidoh's demon mode into consideration, Kirihara red eyes should drop in tier a fair lot.

    You can argue that Kaidoh may not be able to control demon mode same way WoK cannot control beast syncho, though, I guess. But Kaidoh seem to turn it off when Inui want him to.
    Last edited by -Ken-; February 17, 2013 at 09:58 PM.
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    The modes are emotional states, you can't just switch them on and off at will. Inui and Shiraishi made Kaidou and Kirihara self aware of their actions and prevented them from losing control over themselves in those situations. While Kaidou might theoretically activate DM again, it seems that he needs to be pushed much more than Kirihara in order to enter it, and I don't know who would be capable of pushing him to that extent.

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  14. #822
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Devil Mode makes your stamina drop like hell, why would Konomi make Kaidoh "use" that mode?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Devil Mode makes your stamina drop like hell, why would Konomi make Kaidoh "use" that mode?
    In trade of insane power and speed boost?

    Kaoz actually makes a fair point, though. Kirihara devil mode trigger always have been when his opponents make him mad.

    -Krauser "seaweed" (ahem to Yagyuu)
    -Kaidoh shot to the face
    -Provoke by 3rd court

    The only exception I see when he just activated it in middle of match with Renji.

    Kaidoh, on the other hand, got humiliated by Tezuka, and Devil form still doesn't show up, although he still shows to be pretty mad. Guess he had to even be more mad than that. (I only use this match because it's his sole match after he unlock the mode)
    Last edited by -Ken-; February 18, 2013 at 01:48 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  16. #824
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    No, you didn't get it. Why would Konomi change Kaidoh like that? changing one of the few stamina players to get another fast/power character?

  17. #825
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    No, you didn't get it. Why would Konomi change Kaidoh like that? changing one of the few stamina players to get another fast/power character?
    So what? He does give the mode to Kaidoh. And the trade off is worth it. It makes Kirihara who was on the moping side mope his opponents instead.

    Now, if the page where Kaidoh gain the mode doesn't exist. And I'm like, hey, let's give random tech to everyone, it would apply.

    The drawback is in the long run. Like, longer than 1 match.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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