Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

[LetalHawk]

Which is why Niou returned Heca with little to no problems, but didn't stand a chance against Hoshi Hanabi, right?

Also, he was referring to breaking as in, returning it without a cord ball, something that Shiraishi couldn't do back then.

Fuji would win due to plot power, he'll somehow develop a 7th counter after Shiraishi returning Hoshi Hanabi or evolve his already evolved triple counters and finish him.

[Airgrimes]

Change your avatar.

Shiraishi didn't even need to take off the GG to break Heca. Hoshi Hanabi is an easier Counter to return, since Fuji's just hitting the ball super-duper high.

Wait what?
Hoshi Hanabi is easy to return?

Niou says himself that you cant return a shot like that. Dont be silly. Hoshi Hanabi if used, isnt gonna be returned anytime soon.

If Fuji uses Closed Eye, and hits Cord Balls and Heca and other shots simultaneously at random, what's to suggest Shirashi will be able to handle it all?
Remember Fuji hadnt mastered using Closed Eye at will against Shiraishi.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

It's not certain. Taking off the Golden Gauntlet may give Shiraishi enough power to completely break Heca, but we can't be sure. If the power up doesn't fully break Heca, Hoshi Hanabi beats Shiraishi. It's an uncertain situation; it could go either way.

Exactly what I was thinking. I seem them really as dead-equal again like Konomi implied already.
I think it will possibly break Heca, however it doesnt mean Shiraishi is guaranteed the win.

Removing the gauntlet doesnt allow Shiraishi to predict various random shots like Cord Ball which Closed Eye allows.

[Brandnewkid]

Which is why Niou returned Heca with little to no problems, but didn't stand a chance against Hoshi Hanabi, right?

Also, he was referring to breaking as in, returning it without a cord ball, something that Shiraishi couldn't do back then.

Wait what?
Hoshi Hanabi is easy to return?

Niou says himself that you cant return a shot like that. Dont be silly. Hoshi Hanabi if used, isnt gonna be returned anytime soon.

Starry Fireworks is probably one of the biggest examples of plot power in the series, and don't deny it. He literally just hits the ball REALLY REALLY REALLY HIGH, and "wind." Like, it's ridiculous in and out of itself. You really think that Shiraishi, who returned all the Counters, including Heca (regardless if he did it via cord ball or not; in fact, how he broke it shouldn't even matter considering the nature of the move itself, as returning it via a cord ball would be the only logical way), can't return a ball that's hit sky-high in the air and lands on the baseline? Especially since it's a move that uses the wind like White Whale and we all saw how great that worked out, I'm pretty sure Shiraishi could return it easily.

So please, don't use any excuse like "Nioh didn't return it," because:

- Nioh's Shiraishi Illusion is not Shiraishi, so don't talk to me about "Nioh";

- Shiraishi had the GG at the time;

- Starry Fireworks is just plot power.

And I don't care what Nioh said about how the sixth Counter can't be returned. Yukimura said that no one can return Ochi's serve, but the very next page we see Atobe returning it. You'd think that it would finally hit you that all the absolutes that Konomi writes his characters to say are overturned not too long after they say it.

[Airgrimes]

Starry Fireworks is probably one of the biggest examples of plot power in the series, and don't deny it. He literally just hits the ball REALLY REALLY REALLY HIGH, and "wind." Like, it's ridiculous in and out of itself.

Remember it crashed on to the court.
Unlike White Whale, it vanished from the opponent and spectators sight.
Even during the dazzling fireworks, the ball is not in sight.

AK, Rai, Super Megaton..., TPhantom all ridiculous in and out of themselves.
Yes its plot power. We are well aware. So what?
The series continued to SPoT to both Konomi and the reader's surprise, therefore the technique still stands as an amazing technique.

I dont see how you can take away how powerful this shot is. Plot Power or not. The force of the shot actually sends the ball from once bounce in the court, to out of the court way into stadium seats. Its amongst the most sophisticated but difficult shots to return in the series.

You really think that Shiraishi, who returned all the Counters, including Heca (regardless if he did it via cord ball or not; in fact, how he broke it shouldn't even matter considering the nature of the move itself, as returning it via a cord ball would be the only logical way), can't return a ball that's hit sky-high in the air and lands on the baseline? Especially since it's a move that uses the wind like White Whale and we all saw how great that worked out, I'm pretty sure Shiraishi could return it easily.

I doubt Shiraishi will return Hoshi Hanabi.
That was the emphasis told to us by Konomi. That Fuji wont lose to the same opponent twice.
We never even saw the ball during the technique til it reached the stands.
You think Shiraishi has amazing speed

Immediately after the fireworks, the ball crash lands behind the opponent.
And it bounces from the court all the way into the seats of the stadium as far as Kawamura was sent from a Hadoukyuu.

So please, don't use any excuse like "Nioh didn't return it," because:

- Nioh's Shiraishi Illusion is not Shiraishi, so don't talk to me about "Nioh";

- Shiraishi had the GG at the time;

- Starry Fireworks is just plot power.

Well aware Niou's illusion is NOT Shiraishi. I raised with Kaoz that while Shiraishi is too strong for Higuma Otoshi, Shiraishi!Niou's smash was easily handled with Higuma Otoshi by Fuji.
Regardless, the best that Shiraishi could do at all with 5th Counter was hit a Cord Ball that Fuji could predict anyway. Shiraishi couldnt get any better against Heca like Niou could, who returned fully.

The conditions for 6th Counter is a Cord Ball. its for these specific conditions which makes it understandable why it is so difficult to return.

And I don't care what Nioh said about how the sixth Counter can't be returned. Yukimura said that no one can return Ochi's serve, but the very next page we see Atobe returning it.
You'd think that it would finally hit you that all the absolutes that Konomi writes his characters to say are overturned not too long after they say it.

Yukimura wasnt the one playing. Atobe was. Atobe never said it cant be returned.
While Niou who was playing said it couldnt be returned.

Rarely does an opponent say it ''cant be returned'' and then return it. Im challenging you to find at least 2 examples where the opponent himself says he cant return it then returns it.

It is likely that he used the same 6th Counter again for a whole game as at the score being 6-5 Fuji, he used Hoshi Hanabi once. He left Niou flabbergasted and helpless.
So to win 7-5 he must have used it again and again.

Shiraishi returning a shot that you cannot see, crashes to the baseline with intense force and immediately flies into the stands? No. His arm speed may have lifted but not his body.

Im not saying Fuji > Shiraishi, but 6th Counter he cannot return.

[Brandnewkid]

I guarantee you Shiraishi can return the Sixth Counter. Especially since he returned all five of them without taking off the GG; what I'm saying is by taking off the GG, he can do it, regardless of how cheap it is.

The whole Seigaku vs. Rikkai Nationals match was rushed. The Sixth Counter is one of the biggest examples of how rushed it was (and all of what you mentioned doesn't even compare in terms of plot power) in that Fuji specifically stated that Heca was the final Counter, only for Konomi to retcon this because he knew he wrote himself into a hole when he gave Nioh his Illusion move. So, he made Fuji use the same move that Nioh used in his nightmate, the Meteor Drive, as a cheap way to make Fuji win the match. I don't even think it should be considered a Counter. If Fuji can take moves of his dreams and make them real Counters, what next?

[Kaoz]

The Sixth Counter is one of the biggest examples of how rushed it was (and all of what you mentioned doesn't even compare in terms of plot power) in that Fuji specifically stated that Heca was the final Counter, only for Konomi to retcon this

What retcon? He changed the name from final to 5th counter. That's not a retcon, that's Fuji deciding he has to step it up if he wants to get anything done, seeing as Shiraishi already kinda broke it before.

because he knew he wrote himself into a hole when he gave Nioh his Illusion move. So, he made Fuji use the same move that Nioh used in his nightmate, the Meteor Drive, as a cheap way to make Fuji win the match.

How is that a cheap way to win the match? He used a similar technique and...? Ever heard of foreshadowing, seeing how the dream would be pretty pointless otherwise?

Also, I'd like to give Konomi enough credit to actually think the match through before writing it, although I believe we had this discussion before.

If Fuji can take moves of his dreams and make them real Counters

It was Inui's dream, not Fuji's.

[Airgrimes]

I guarantee you Shiraishi can return the Sixth Counter. Especially since he returned all five of them without taking off the GG; what I'm saying is by taking off the GG, he can do it, regardless of how cheap it is.

The whole Seigaku vs. Rikkai Nationals match was rushed. The Sixth Counter is one of the biggest examples of how rushed it was (and all of what you mentioned doesn't even compare in terms of plot power) in that Fuji specifically stated that Heca was the final Counter, only for Konomi to retcon this because he knew he wrote himself into a hole when he gave Nioh his Illusion move.

Regardless of plot power, Shiraishi's abilities dont really meet the demand that returning the technique requires.
Like I said, the moment it lands on the opponents court it cannot be returned as it flies into the stands.

Unless you think Shiraishi can easily volley a ball that crash lands onto a court.


6th Counter was a level above his other Counters. It was a counter to end the series. It was a move that made Fuji a strong character in his final match.

So, he made Fuji use the same move that Nioh used in his nightmate, the Meteor Drive, as a cheap way to make Fuji win the match. I don't even think it should be considered a Counter. If Fuji can take moves of his dreams and make them real Counters, what next?

Inui's dream. It was a good match to be fair. You seem to be annoyed that Niou lost.
Shiraishi cant return 6th Counter. Remember the final point that Fuji hit when Shiraishi won 7-6? Shiraishi was as helpless as a 1-legged-dog at that moment.
And it was incomplete even then!

The complete version completely stunned the audience.

LOL return this?

On the right panel at the top, you see the ball from one bounce head into the stands?

That move alone won the whole game.
Of course it should be considered a Counter. It makes Cord Balls ineffective and is a definete point. I dont see how it cant be handled.

Yes its plot power. So is KaRinRai or something that Sanada used to return ZSS. Its is even more illogical than 6th Counter. It was done for the plot purely to show that Sanada's hard work to defeat one man paid off. It was so that whatever Tezuka used, Sanada survived it and countered it.
There is zero sense in the move. However, as the series continued, it still stands as Sanada's technique and that he can handle ZSS.

6th Counter is no different. It was insane back in PoT, but in SPoT it is no longer plot power but one of Fuji's moves.

[Brandnewkid]

Okay, nevermind. Forget everything I said. Fuji is deh awesumness, Sixth Counter is so cool and sensible, and Shiraishi can never ever beat him. What I wanna know is why would you even ask the question if you guys were gonna basically defend Fuji this hard.

[Kaoz]

I would agree with Shiraishi > Fuji at this point, I just disagree with the reasoning you used.

[LetalHawk]

Okay, nevermind. Forget everything I said. Fuji is deh awesumness, Sixth Counter is so cool and sensible, and Shiraishi can never ever beat him. What I wanna know is why would you even ask the question if you guys were gonna basically defend Fuji this hard.

If Fuji wins will be due to plot power. Shiraishi can perfectly return Hoshi Hanabi without gauntlet. However, he never returned the evolved triple counters, only the normal versions. Without gauntlet, he doesn't gain any speed on his lower body, so shots like Hoshi Hanabi would work against him. But, since he's growing also like the other MS due to U-17's training, he should be able to deal with them.

[Airgrimes]

Okay, nevermind. Forget everything I said. Fuji is deh awesumness, Sixth Counter is so cool and sensible, and Shiraishi can never ever beat him. What I wanna know is why would you even ask the question if you guys were gonna basically defend Fuji this hard.

We are not.
You have not given sufficient evidence to explain why Shiraishi could return that kind of shot. He was scared shitless at the incomplete one that Fuji hit to him at the end of their match.
yet you think the improved version which unlike Hakugei doesnt fly in front of the opponent upwards. It lifts up to the sky out of sight closer to the hitter than the opponent.
It then goes out of sight from everybody. So you have no idea where on the baseline it will land.
It then crash lands and the bounce goes to way out of the court.

It is NOTHING like Hakugei besides the fact it is a lob that goes to the baseline.

We are not saying Fuji > Shiraishi. I most certainly am not. We are saying Shiraishi cannot return 6th Counter.
he will likely completely defeat 5th Counter like Niou did now that the GG is off.

We are not defending Fuji hard. To say, because Shiraishi returned other counters he can return 6th Counter is stupid. Very silly.
Its like saying coz one can return FuuRinKaZan, they can return Rai. Real dumb to say.

6th Counter is a different level from the rest. However, Shiraishi I believe can completely break the 5th Counter perfectly without it being a cord ball when he removes the Golden Gauntlet just like Niou did.

Nobody said Shiraishi can never beat him. At the same time, I believe Fuji will put up an even stronger fight than before giving us a 7-6 finish to Shiraishi or even Fuji not sure once Fuji uses Closed Eyes. It now stops Shiraishi from predicting each shot or counter as they come.

[Tsukihime no uta]

I think Fuji and shiraishi will always be very close in the series, since they kinda seem like rivals at the moment.

As a side note, I think Shiraishi is like a lower level Yukimura. Returns all of fuji's counters (but no evolved ones) and does not really have any special techniques, other than the one round table shot. Not saying they are completely alike, just see a similarity in that aspect.

[Airgrimes]

I think Fuji and shiraishi will always be very close in the series, since they kinda seem like rivals at the moment.

That's what ive gathered as of so far.
They are like Momoshiro and Kaidoh I suppose.

[-Ken-]

Is there a reason Yagyuu is above Kaidoh? I think I might raise this point before, but I figure I might raise it again.

Kaidoh Gyro laser is faster. His Tornado Snake also obviously > Yagyuu snake.

If Yagyuu beating Niou is of any indication, Niou didn't transform into anyone in that match, making him pretty weak. The not-transform Niou is really weak, getting own by Fuji without making any score. I don't think that match put Yagyuu that high, really.

Also, why is Momoshiro still so low? His black jack knit beat up the two first stringer like they are fodder. If anything, he's really strong right now.

And I don't think Chitose and Tachibana is that high anymore, either. They are equal (and even lost) to 3rd court that make fodder by 1st stringer. That make them fodder as of currently until we saw them in another match.

[Airgrimes]

For the reason that Laser is Yagyuu's technique. Its almost a given that Yagyuu knows how to handle his own technique.

Examples: Atobe schooling Ryoma when he tried to copy Tannhauser. Sanada schooling Ryoma when Ryoma tried to copy his move.
Oni schooling Momo with Jack Knife.

For Momoshiro i'll get back to you on it in a sec.