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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Singles Tier List
Only characters that had at least one match (or currently have one) are to be ranked. For Doubles, only players that played together before may be ranked.
Concerning the Tier Lists for Prefecturals, Tokyo, Kanto and Nationals, the above criteria apply to the given time frame.
Last edited by Kaoz; June 18, 2014 at 02:20 AM.
I don't think Angel Form would do much for a singles game because Kirihara isn't someone who would play well in Doubles normally so it looks like that form just makes him a decent Doubles player. Devil Form is still go to move for offense and the only restriction is that it alleged nasty side effects. Devil Form wasn't useful in the doubles match because there was a guy with a staggering 4.5 average on nonspeed categories. That guy absolutey isn't going to get KOed by Devil Form and Devil Form can't be used for prolonged period of time.
Shiraishi is way overrated for being the strongest mortal. Yes he works hard to figure out how to actually fight off characters with superhuman techniques, but in the end his lack of ability to randomly becomes 10 times more powerful just because someone called him a seaweed head means he can't be expected to beat people like Fuji or Kirihara in the long run because you can't keep up with that kind of miraculous evolution with just working hard.
They played normally until they thought they absolutely had to use Synchro.
Secondly, Kikumaru's one man doubles lost to Viking Horn. Kai was still even with him with the Viking Horn.
Sealed Step is great, but its not like Kikumaru has great stats outside of Speed and Stamina.
Kikumaru in Singles was entertaining and I love all his matches but for him to have Sealed Step and STILL got held to a 7-6 finish against Kai means he can't be that great.
I think you'll agree that the threat of Iron Pole+Tightrope Walking+Temporal Hell being from one stance is greater than the Viking Horn.
If Kai can break Sealed Step then so can Marui.
6-3 Marui win.
My assumption is that they stalled by not using Synchro.
Had they used Synchro the match would have been over in a flash so they didnt use Synchro for as long as possible.
Why else would Konomi have focused on Kikumaru struglling to guess what shot Marui would hit?
I can't think why else he would have had added that scene other than to show the difference between Marui/Jackal and Oishi/Kikumaru in their Base forms.
Renji is the third best at rikkai, that was often stated, but it was also often said that fuji was the second best at seigaku(he was seigaku's number two before ryoma improved, then him and tezuka kept one upping each other with their upgrades during nationals), and fuji knows data tennis pretty well, since he is on a team with inui, and he is better than inui. Fuji's closed eyes were able to play on par with and beat nious tezuka with two muga doors open, so although closed eyes aren't as flashy as some other modes, it is still useful, and one small difference is renji is more of a doubles player, and fuji is more of a singles player. Renji is a very good player, but his strength is his data tennis, and even inui stated that he couldn't gather fuji's true data, even after being on a team with him for three years, so i doubt renji would be able to gather enough data on him during a match to be able to win
Being third of Rikkaidai is much better than being second of Seigaku given Rikkaidai is supposed to be way stronger than Seigaku. The number two player of Rikkidai (Sanada) could've defeated the number one player of Seigaku (Tezuka) 6-1 if he didn't have some weird obsession about using Rai (he can't stop the ZSS but that's the only game he'd lose) using POT1 as a reference point (and if you go POT2 technically Fuji auto loses to anyone just because he's done literally nothing).
When Sanada first used Furinkazan the people used as a reference point to illustrate the power of the technique was Yanagi, Kirihara, and Atobe. Fuji defeated Kirihara with some difficulty and luck (Kirihara was unable to fully grasp Muga at the time of the match), and it looks very unlikely he'll beat Atobe at all at least on paper, and it's safe to say Yanagi is somewhere between those two so it's far from certain that Fuji can beat Yanagi. When Tezuka was doing his moves they said this is why Tezuka is someone even the Big 3 must be careful around. Again it says 'Big 3', not "Sanada and Yukimura plus the other guy".
Note that Fuji never climbed to the Tezuka tier even at the end of POT, even though you've some random clueless audience member claiming such (but those guys also once said one of the Fudomine guy is as good as Fuji). Had Fuji played the real Tezuka, it'd be 6-1 with no possibilty of saving it since Niou turned into Tezuka while behind 0-3, and then got to 5-4 on his serve but he can't do ZSS, implying the score is 5-1 after Niou turned into Tezuka and the real Tezuka would simply finish Fuji off with 4 ZSS. While Yanagi is almost certainly the weakest member of the 'Tezuka-tier', that's not saying much given at nationals, Tezuka would've beaten Fuji 6-1 based solely on Niou vs Fuji game.
I think one of the main reasons why this worked for Atobe/Niou here is that Ochi/Mouri is a very defensive pair, they don't really score points very quickly and just have a good court coverage which lets them return a lot of shots, but they don't really attack; as we saw, Atobe was able to catch up to shots without Synchro before losing points. The problem here is that if you just barely catch up to a shot, you don't really have time to start any sort of counter attack.
This changes when Synchro becomes active because it allows you to communicate with your partner without words or anything, so since Niou studied Ochi's and Mouri's movements for an entire set, he could watch them and tell Atobe where the blind spots in Ochi/Mouri's formation are without Atobe needing to look for them himself.
A key point here is that Niou's partner needs to be able to cover the entire court by himself, and the stamina to do so over a longer period of time. I could see Yagyuu having the former (I don't think he's much slower than Atobe if at all), but I don't see him having the stamina to keep it up for two sets, even if Synchro lets you ignore fatigue to a degree.
This also makes me question whether Atobe/Niou could beat Kimijima/Tohno btw because those two actually specialize in offense.
Secondly, I don't think Niou can instantly Synchro with anyone. If he could, there's no reason for him to wait until they're down by a set and a half. It's true that he and Oishi did it instantly, but Oishi already formed a Synchro with Kikumaru, so the conditions were already cleared, whereas Yagyuu didn't Synchro with anyone yet.
Lastly, neither Niou nor Yagyuu can actually return Mach on their own, so that's 1 in 4 games Ochi/Mouri just win.
As for their placement, I'm still on the fence with S Tier. I could see them at the bottom of it, but I'd prefer them in A for now.
---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
Potentially the BJB pairs. We don't know much about their teamwork, but at least we know what they're capable of individually.
And I'm, pretty sure that he cannot use his cool volleys whenever he wants, they are probably just show off moves that he can only use with some previous preparation. Again, Moon Volley >>>lob>any Marui's moves.
Platinum Pair - Yagyuu/Niou
Data Pair - Inui/Yanagi
Golden Pair - Kikumaru/Oishi
Two Wings of Kyūshū - Tachibana/Chitose
Emerald Pair - Kaidou/Inui
Champion Pair - Marui/Jackal
Dream Pair - Kikumaru/Fuji
Silver Pair - Shishido/Ootori
Idiot Pair - Konjiki/Hitouji
Jimmies - Minami/Higashikata
Bronze Pair - Kurobane/Amane
Golden Pair - Kikumaru/Oishi
This is a weird one... I see the Mutsu Bros winning against GP, yet it's not that hard to imagine that GP would be good enough to beat Niou/Oishi (as the original always beats the copy)...
Anad Niou/Oishi beat the Mutsus, just because Niou can interfere in they synchro.
How the hell do you want me to tier Kawamura/Kabaji and Kenya/Momo
And where should Marui/Kite go? Personally, I don't see them winning against the Mutsus
Last edited by Hardy; January 14, 2013 at 11:16 AM.
I don't really like the tier difference between GP and Washio/Suzuki, Oishi/Kikumaru!Niou didn't do any better against the Mutsus than Washio/Suzuki did. I'd probably drop Oishi/Kikumaru and Oishi/Niou a tier and have the latter just above the former (because they can counter synchro pairs and shouldn't be that much worse otherwise, if at all).
Kenya/Momoshiro could be somewhere in B Tier probably, no idea with Kawamura/Kabaji to be honest, maybe B as well.
Marui/Kite are > Mutsus in my eyes. Marui should be able to cover anything the Mutsus can do with WC and Kite has the offense to finish them off. Would probably put them near the top of A.
Your theory is flawed. I'm talking about Base Kikumaru and Base Oishi not in Synchro.
If they could have won without Synchro, they would have.
Their way of toying around was by not using Synchro until Echizen got his memories back.
They're pretty much playing as usual but not using Synchro. They've come with the intention to win and are playing normally but just not using Synchro. Evidence is there Hardy.
Jackal and Marui say it like it is. They remove their weights at this point.
So GP began kicking hard from the start since they went out and grabbed the first game. Their way of holding back was by not using Synchro.
Nothing really suggests that GP could have done any better whilst they weren't in Synchro.
Konomi could have made the score 5-3 or 5-4 to show the difference between them but he didn't.
He had to have a way to show how powerful Jackal/Marui are.
Momo tells them thank you for stalling. First thing they do whilst drenched in sweat is bring out Synchro. http://www.mangareader.net/422-27266...apter-369.html
Not like they could have done damage without it as far as we have seen.
So yes. They did stall. How did they stall? They didn't use their Synchro when they could have.
It went to tie-break. This means regardless of any advantage Kai went back to him and they were neck and neck dead even.
In fact, Kikumaru won because his ball rolled UP the damn net and tipped over to the opponents. It rolled UP.
It took Kikumaru a freaking plot powered finish.
Marui was placed in Singles at Nationals.
Rikkai's philosophy is to challenge head-on, so they wouldn't put him in Singles if he wasn't an efficient Singles player.
Secondly, a lob from Kimijima is different to what Kikumaru can do.
In Singles do you really think Marui will be at the net the whole time. He beat Jackal who knows him best.
Do you really think Jackal wouldn't hit lobs when he knows his style so well?
Secondly hitting lobs was done by Kimijima who I see at Atobe's tier since he was No.7 after all.
I don't see Kikumaru/Kai tier doing what Kimijima does.
The amount of times we've seen players sprint from one side of the court to another to return shots I can't see how Viking Horn is a massive threat. Marui to beat Kai.
Except you're wrong here.Quote:
Marui has amazing reflexes and its cited to be pretty much the best of the MSers just like Sengoku is cited to have the best Motion Vision of the MSers.
And with this your beloved Kikumaru got raped at the net by Marui Bunta:
Because of his amazing reflexes like mentioned against Kimijima/Tohno, he can suddenly change stance to it. He says "Myougi" and all his Myougi techniques pretty much begin with him holding the frame of his racket in his left hand.
Marui is far better than Kikumaru at the net. Kikumaru has Diving Volley but Marui has Wonder Castle + Myougi. Net play is Marui's.
PLEASE READ ALL OF MY POSTS.Quote:
I told you Moon Volley requires the user to be at the back of the court.
If Kikumaru is at the back of the court then he can't use his net play as efficiently as he could.
Kai is not that great a player.
He was going neck and neck with Kai from 4-4 after he got Two Man Doubles.
That's how bad Kikumaru's Technique is. He had two of him and he was still neck and neck with Kai.
You give Sealed Step to anybody in tiers above let's say Kirihara or Yushi and we have one of the most frightening players in the series.
An example of how as long Marui is at the net, he can hit any kind of his volleys.
He waited for ages til the ball was within his reach.
He went from the net to the baseline in the middle of Momo performing a smash, and then back to the net immediately after just as Momo/Kaido hit it back. He can track back for lobs.
Kikumaru can't hit lobs as freely as Kimijima I'm certain.
That wasn't simple lobs just catching Wonder Castle's returns effortlessly like that.
Kikumaru has Bazooka and Sealed Step but if Kai can cope with it then...
That's why I didn't tier them.
---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------
Rikkai's philosophy is to challenge head-on? Why didn't Marui play Singles in a serious match then (like Kikumaru did).
It's a lob, it doesn't matter who the hell hits it
Kikumaru can be at the back and front at the same time!
I can agree that Marui's net play is the best among the Ms, but Kikumaru has shown that he can play all around the court (and practically play as 2 people), his reflexes should be enough to seal whatever is close to the net and if Marui wants to hit the pole to Kikumaru's back, his ¨doppelganger¨ makes a moon volley winning the point.
I dunno why Jackal didn't hit a lob or a snake around Marui, ask Konomi.
1 more reply and you win, I'm too lazy for big discussions bro
Don't really feel like bothering with Kabaji at the moment, might do it some other time.
Fair enough on Saeki letting Yuuta win, I remember seeing that on fet.fudomine although I've never seen it in the manga myself.
I also don't remember even seeing the St.Rudolph VS Rokkaku organized match ever and just heard about it.
It's debatable how serious a match Kikumaru VS Kai was though. It was only Round 2 of the Nationals.
Marui was put in Singles at a later stage in the quaterfinals.
Also, they had Tezuka in S1 and Inui/Kaidoh in D1. It's not like Seigaku were too pressured although Kikumaru in Singles is awesome to watch I'm disappointed with his unconvincing win. He dominated the match yet it went to tie-break.
I'm saying that it doesn't mean Kikumaru can hit lobs like Kimijima can.
Sanada has been since his intro amongst the very best of the MSers. Kikumaru has never been in that regard so I don't think he is that able of hitting lobs off of Diving Volleys.
Secondly, that match showed Kikumaru and his two-man doubles couldn't even bury Kai.
Unfortunately, Marui got improvement and Kikumaru wasn't in the mountains so as far as we know, he hasn't made significant improvement just like Fuji.
if two Kikumaru's can't bury Kai, then its not so good.
You keep saying Doubles but it isn't that effective for Kikumaru. He won just 7-6.
There isn't any point in mentioning it if it didn't give him a massive boost.
Re-read the chapter. From like 4-4 he brought it out iirc but Kai kept up with him eventually. That sucks.
Kai is in theory about cooler Tanishi. He isn't good really.
I showed you a link where Marui sprinted from the net to the baseline and back in a rally while he had his power wrists and power ankles on against Momo...
So there is nothing to say a Moon Volley can actually beat him.
Secondly, Kikumaru cannot hit Moon Volleys constantly as far as we know. Sanada could because he is Sanada.
Kikumaru is Kikumaru. He isn't near that level.
Don't stop now, you've pretty much supported Kikumaru well.
From our discussion I've gathered that the two are most likely even.
Thanks Aigrimes you saved me some time.
How did the Mutsus score against other pairs? Just by scoring lol, no defense is unbeatable...
DP would also win against Marui/Kite
Marui was put in Singles in Quarterfinals against a completely fodder team (although, you can say that Kabuto destroyed Joushuuin, who was a bit better than Midoriyama... Kabuto was probably Rokkaku's lvl, but they had a player named Fujii )
He had enough time to go back to the net because he hit a deep lob, none of Seigaku players were back there so they had to run all they way back (instead of just hitting a smash before it bounces).
He barely returned it... and if you look at how the ball is dropping, it seems perfect for a Kikumaru Beam (or Bazooka, depending on his position) if there was a player in the back of the court, isn't it?
---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------
Saeki actualy says something different
Last edited by Hardy; January 14, 2013 at 04:18 PM.