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Thread: Singles Tier List

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    Singles Tier List

    Singles Tier List

    Spoiler: U-17 Singles Revised (In Progress) show


    Spoiler: U-17 Singles show


    Spoiler: Prefecturals - Tokyo - Kanto - Nationals show


    Only characters that had at least one match (or currently have one) are to be ranked. For Doubles, only players that played together before may be ranked.

    Concerning the Tier Lists for Prefecturals, Tokyo, Kanto and Nationals, the above criteria apply to the given time frame.
    Last edited by Kaoz; June 18, 2014 at 02:20 AM.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Being third of Rikkaidai is much better than being second of Seigaku given Rikkaidai is supposed to be way stronger than Seigaku. The number two player of Rikkidai (Sanada) could've defeated the number one player of Seigaku (Tezuka) 6-1 if he didn't have some weird obsession about using Rai (he can't stop the ZSS but that's the only game he'd lose) using POT1 as a reference point (and if you go POT2 technically Fuji auto loses to anyone just because he's done literally nothing).

    When Sanada first used Furinkazan the people used as a reference point to illustrate the power of the technique was Yanagi, Kirihara, and Atobe. Fuji defeated Kirihara with some difficulty and luck (Kirihara was unable to fully grasp Muga at the time of the match), and it looks very unlikely he'll beat Atobe at all at least on paper, and it's safe to say Yanagi is somewhere between those two so it's far from certain that Fuji can beat Yanagi. When Tezuka was doing his moves they said this is why Tezuka is someone even the Big 3 must be careful around. Again it says 'Big 3', not "Sanada and Yukimura plus the other guy".

    Note that Fuji never climbed to the Tezuka tier even at the end of POT, even though you've some random clueless audience member claiming such (but those guys also once said one of the Fudomine guy is as good as Fuji). Had Fuji played the real Tezuka, it'd be 6-1 with no possibilty of saving it since Niou turned into Tezuka while behind 0-3, and then got to 5-4 on his serve but he can't do ZSS, implying the score is 5-1 after Niou turned into Tezuka and the real Tezuka would simply finish Fuji off with 4 ZSS. While Yanagi is almost certainly the weakest member of the 'Tezuka-tier', that's not saying much given at nationals, Tezuka would've beaten Fuji 6-1 based solely on Niou vs Fuji game.
    In the beginning of POT, Renji was better than fuji, but by the end fuji had surpassed him. Rikkaidai was supposed to be stronger than Seigaku, but Seigaku got stronger and ended up beating Rikkaidai twice in the series. Sanada's Furinkazan is strong, however if his match with atobe had continued, atobe would have won(even yukimura stated this). If Sanada had played tezuka using his own head on style the entire game, then at some point Rai would have taken out Sanada's legs, and Tezuka Phantom and ZSS would have taken out Tezuka's arm, tezuka can play with either hand so he'd just switch arms, sanada wouldn't be able to use his legs, tezuka win, sanada won because he gave up his head on game, which was smart, though it was yukimura's strategy that gave him the win.

    If tezuka faced fuji, then tezuka zone, tezuka phantom, and his muga doors would all be taken out, as the fourth counter gets rid of spin(takes out tezuka zone, tezuka phantom, and any extra spin added by his pinnacle of hard work), and his closed eyes would get rid of absolute prediction. Then it would be fuji's 6 counters(technically 9, but 3 are just improved versions of the first 3), disappearing serve, and closed eyed state against tezukas ZSS, and tezuka would have to break all of fuji's counters to win. It is possible, but he would have to break them all before he lost the match, he would take a few games using ZSS, and if he broke all of fuji's counters, it would just come down to a match with no special moves, as ZSS would eventually become unusable. It took shriaishi most of his game to break the fifth counter, and by the end of POT fuji had a sixth counter, so a match between fuji and tezuka at the end of POT would be anyones game, since most of tezukas big moves would be sealed by closed eyes and fourth counter, and the ZSS would let him keep his service games while he would have to break fuji's counters during fuji's service games, after he counters fuji's disappearing serve. Since tezuka has seen all but the sixth counter broken, he would probably eventually be able to break the first five, so the match would come down to whether or not he could break the sixth before he lost, it would be a toss up to who would win that match.

    Also, Renji lost to sanada without sanada having to use Rai and In, and it is only because of Rai and In that Sanada was able to beat tezuka, so tezuka would wipe the floor with renji, since renji has not shown the ability to counter the tezuka zone, tezuka phantom, or any muga doors, but fuji has. Based on the niou v fuji game, all of tezukas big moves besides ZSS were broken. Based on how strong tezuka and fuji became, by the end of POT, its not clear who would win(as during the niou match fuji hadn't completed his sixth counter yet, if he faced tezuka after nationals he would have it from the beginning of the match), but either way fuji is tezuka tier, so he would beat renji

    although in SPOT, fuji has shown nothing except that he can beat his brother, and he can't beat tezuka's pinnacle of perfection

  3. #647
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Spoiler show


    Thanks Aigrimes you saved me some time.
    That would be convincing if Oishi didn't also float through the air and we didn't have this. Not to mention that Niou is quite flexible himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    As far as I know... BJK comes in, breaks everyone wrists, game over. I honestly think that Kirihara, Shiraishi, Mutsus, GP, almost anyone would be a victim of it.
    Well, that would put them somewhere into A Tier then probably. Although if you know that Momoshiro has it and you can't deal with the shot itself, you'd probably target Kenya more (Taira/Hara just didn't because it made no difference I guess).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    How did the Mutsus score against other pairs? Just by scoring lol, no defense is unbeatable...
    Except that a superior attacker didn't manage to get around WC with the exception of a lob (which is easily covered by Kite) and an injury (are we expecting everyone to throw their racket at Marui now?). It's not exactly as easy as you're making it out to be.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    That would be convincing if Oishi didn't also float through the air and we didn't have this. Not to mention that Niou is quite flexible himself.
    Oishi is just jumping to do a backhand return, Kikumaru is doing a Matrix Backflip...

    You don't have to be really flexible to do a volley like the one you showed me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Well, that would put them somewhere into A Tier then probably. Although if you know that Momoshiro has it and you can't deal with the shot itself, you'd probably target Kenya more (Taira/Hara just didn't because it made no difference I guess)
    So any Pair with Momo is A tier? Kiku/Momo, Taka/Momo ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Except that a superior attacker didn't manage to get around WC with the exception of a lob (which is easily covered by Kite) and an injury (are we expecting everyone to throw their racket at Marui now?). It's not exactly as easy as you're making it out to be.
    I'm talking about 2 guys hiting parallel shots, no matter how good WC is, in a doubles court it won't stand more than 2 or 3 returns.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    Also, Renji lost to sanada without sanada having to use Rai and In, and it is only because of Rai and In that Sanada was able to beat tezuka, so tezuka would wipe the floor with renji
    So your logic says:

    1) Renji lost to Sanada (pre-Kantou tournament) without Sanada having to use Rai and In
    2) Nationals Sanada used Rai and In to beat Nationals Tezuka
    3) Therefore Nationals Tezuka would beat Kantou Renji.

    First of all, just because Sanada plays against Tezuka a certain way doesn't mean he plays against others the same way. If you know anything about Sanada, you would know his playstyle depends on his opponent. The way he plays against Atobe (Zan) is different from the way he plays against Renji (Rin). The way he plays against Tezuka (Rai/In) is different from the way he plays against Kirihara (Ka), or Echizen (Fuu/Ka). So to say "Psh, Sanada didn't even use _______" is a logical fallacy, because he only uses what is necessary to counter his opponent.

    Secondly, you need to get your timeline in order. You can't compare one character during the nationals with another character during kantou. In order to compare correctly, they both need to be present in the same timeline, which negates the first part of your premise.

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    Post Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I'm talking about 2 guys hiting parallel shots, no matter how good WC is, in a doubles court it won't stand more than 2 or 3 returns.
    Wrong.
    WC couldn't be stopped without a lob and anybody behind Momo would have smashed it.
    No shot can get past Marui without a lob.

    His defense is superior to Kikumaru's may I add.
    Marui was stopping VARIOUS Execution Methods. I'm sorry but a few Execution Methods and Kikumaru is finished.
    Even Kite couldn't take them yet Marui before a racket was thrown in his eye was handling them.

    And Yeah, Sanada can hit Moon volley-like shots constantly. Why?
    Because he's Sanada. Everyone was stunned that someone of even Sanada class could do it 3 times in a row.
    So I'm sorry but somebody of Kikumaru class will be extremely lucky to hit just 5 in a row.
    Just think, if some people were surprised at Sanada doing it, why on earth would it be easy for Kikumaru to do it from any position?

    Since the Execution Methods can't get past Marui, Kikumaru Beam definetely won't, and I strongly doubt Kikumaru Bazooka will.
    In the end it becomes a match of defense between Kikumaru's Sealed Step and Marui's Wonder Castle.

    I showed you before that Tightrope Walking, Iron Pole and Temporal Hell are all hit from the same initial stance and it mind-raped Kikumaru in their match.

    If the concept of not knowing where the ball will land like Viking Horn was enough to stay even with Seal Step then Myougi's 3 moves which is a bigger threat than Viking Horn will also do it.

    Not saying Marui will win but I'm still not seeing Kikumaru taking this really.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Why does everyone overrate Fuji in a hypothetical matchup against Tezuka when he would've lost 1-6 to Niou if Niou was able to use ZSS when he copied Tezuka? Is the real Tezuka supposed to be inferior than the clone? Niou got 5 games off Fuji while giving up one game as Tezuka. Is the real Tezuka supposed to somehow do worse? Or was Fuji just messing around for no reason, despite not knowing for sure whether Niou can do ZSS? Fuji sure cannot return ZSS so he's got to be insane go give up 5 games just for fun. This is one game where there is no need for the hypothetical because the manga shows exactly how the game will end. Tezuka will jump out to a 5-1 lead and finish with 4 ZSS for a 6-1, the end.

    If you go back to Kantou levels, Sanada would've been able to defeat Tezuka with just Ka since that defeats Tezuka Zone and at that point Tezuka cannot use any of his other advanced moves. The whole point of Furinkazan is that very few players are even worthy to see Furinkazan at all and being defeated by one of those 4 moves is more like a badge of honor. Tezuka didn't get elevated to the top tier until he came back from the surgery. In the game against Rikkidai the Seigaku players are told to imagine they're playing against 7 Tezukas. Tezuka with his most powerful moves sealed is only a national tier level character at best, say along the lines of Tachibana. In fact, it's pretty bizarre that people in POT consider Tezuka a top tier character at all prior to Nationals, since he's only top tier when he uses his sealed moves, except we know he's never used them prior to Nationals and only Yukimura and Sanada knows about these moves (no one in Seigaku knows about them).

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    So any Pair with Momo is A tier? Kiku/Momo, Taka/Momo ?
    Good point.

    The Taira/Hara VS Momoshiro/Kenya was an apalling job on Konomi's part I must say. It was awful and ended in making no sense without some explanations.
    Nationals!Kenya and Nationals!Momo were the players that began the match basically.
    Taira/Hara toyed around and shat on them completely.

    Granted BJK is top move, but for some reason Hara and Taira's rackets were neatly placed in line after one another so that Momoshiro took their racket strings out in one shot.
    I don't think the match ended there though since Kenya says something like "We're gonna keep climbing up Momo".
    With common sense like the Jimmies had, who noticed that the best player in GP straight away was Kikumaru and aimed only for Oishi so that they didn't have to deal with his Diving Volley,
    Taira/Hara who are freaking Top20 so at least between HS 1st and old HS 2nd Court level in strength should have been able to just aim for Kenya who was useless and remained useless the whole match. We didn't even get to see him say "No Speed... No Life!.." or see his Speed Play in action. Crappy match lol.

    So I'm guessing... Taira and Hara despite being so highly ranked had to forfeit the match the moment the BJK touched their rackets like how Oni ended Momo.
    Meaning Momo's BJK is pretty much just as effective as Oni's or extremely near effectiveness.

    Or... Since their bus was far away they forfeited since they couldn't get a new rackets...

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Why does everyone overrate Fuji in a hypothetical matchup against Tezuka when he would've lost 1-6 to Niou if Niou was able to use ZSS when he copied Tezuka? Is the real Tezuka supposed to be inferior than the clone? Niou got 5 games off Fuji while giving up one game as Tezuka. Is the real Tezuka supposed to somehow do worse? Or was Fuji just messing around for no reason, despite not knowing for sure whether Niou can do ZSS? Fuji sure cannot return ZSS so he's got to be insane go give up 5 games just for fun. This is one game where there is no need for the hypothetical because the manga shows exactly how the game will end. Tezuka will jump out to a 5-1 lead and finish with 4 ZSS for a 6-1, the end.

    If you go back to Kantou levels, Sanada would've been able to defeat Tezuka with just Ka since that defeats Tezuka Zone and at that point Tezuka cannot use any of his other advanced moves. The whole point of Furinkazan is that very few players are even worthy to see Furinkazan at all and being defeated by one of those 4 moves is more like a badge of honor. Tezuka didn't get elevated to the top tier until he came back from the surgery. In the game against Rikkidai the Seigaku players are told to imagine they're playing against 7 Tezukas. Tezuka with his most powerful moves sealed is only a national tier level character at best, say along the lines of Tachibana. In fact, it's pretty bizarre that people in POT consider Tezuka a top tier character at all prior to Nationals, since he's only top tier when he uses his sealed moves, except we know he's never used them prior to Nationals and only Yukimura and Sanada knows about these moves (no one in Seigaku knows about them).
    If niou had been able to use ZSS when he was tezuka, he would have won all his service games, but it would have done damage to his arm, especially since he used tezuka phantom as well, and fuji always messes around in the beginning of his matches, well not really mess around but he doesn't go serious unless he is forced to, like against red eye/muga kirihara and against shiraishi.

    However, whenever I've talked about the hypothetical match between fuji and tezuka, i mean post nationals but before U17 camp, so unlike fuji's match against niou, he would already know the sixth counter and not figure it out at almost the end of the match. Tezuka with two muga doors open, ZSS, tezuka zone, and tezuka phantom against closed eye fuji with all of his counters and his disappearing serve. Closed eyes boosts fuji's senses, and nullifies absolute prediction, fourth counter can nullify tezuka zone, tezuka phantom, and any extra spin the ball gets from the pinnacle of hard work muga door, and since tezuka has seen all four of fuji's counters broken before, he could probably break through all of them himself and fuji's disappearing serve, maybe not on the first try, but he would before the match was over, then they would each be left with one weapon, fuji with is sixth counter and his boosted senses with his closed eyes, and tezuka with his ZSS and extra strength his shots have from the pinnacle of hard work. ZSS is the only move of tezuka's that was unreturnable in POT, and the sixth counter is the only move of fuji's that was unreturnable in POT, so it would be a toss up over whether tezukas arm would give out first or tezuka would find a way to return fuji's final counter first.

    Sanada's Rai is his best move, stronger than ka and faster than fu, most other players can't handle ka's power or fu's speed, rai is faster, stronger, and has an irregular unpredictable bounce, yet this move was never needed until the national semifinals, and he probably didn't even really need to use it then. Renji made note during Sanada's match against ryoma that he was powerless against forest, which pretty much has the same properties as fuji's fourth counter, as they both nullify the spin on a ball

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  11. #654
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    100% agree with your point.
    Well not totally, fyi ZSS wasn't unreturnable. In the manga Sanada returned it.

    And Rin was better then 4th Counter. Both shots nullify spin completely, but 4th Counter was a bit of a low lob that wavered just out of reach of the opponent.
    Where as Rin was a neat drop shot or lob. Sanada made it dangerous as he hit lobs and drop shots with Rin from one stance.

    Hyakkuren was not unreturnable. Chitose showed us that you just need to hit shots with more technique and not too much power to make it more or less useless.
    I see loads of players being able to do that.
    And also you can just be a player who has far more physical strength than his appearance suggests like Sanada who tore apart Hyakkuren + Tezuka Zone from the first point.

    And personally, I don't think Niou would have dropped a point Disappearing Serve. Shiraishi wrecked it. That neat pivot to the side to return it was beast.
    Tezuka!Niou was a pretty good replica of Tezuka only not being good enough to use ZSS so Niou would have returned Disappearing Serve immediately.
    I think Fuji would have used it otherwise since it would give Mid tier and below guys difficulty.
    Last edited by Airgrimes; January 16, 2013 at 04:59 PM.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    I want to see the Two Wings of Kyushuu in action in SPOT, in POT they were both national level players, and they both had special abilities, Tachibana with his wild beast aura, and Chitose with his muga, but neither really got a good chance to really go all out , Tachibana had sealed off his real abilities for most of POT, which is why he lost to Akaya, and he finally showed a lot of his true power against Chitose, but he let himself get hit in the eye and wouldn't hit balls towards Chitoses bad eye, and its because of this that Chitose was able to return Wild Ball, otherwise he wouldn't have won on that shot. Chitose went all out against Tezuka and Tachibana, but since Tezuka was able to use two muga doors at once, Chitose had no chance against him, and because Tachibana as limiting his shots only to his good side, its hard to know what would have happend if Tachibana had gone for his opponents weakness.

    In SPOT, all they had was a couple pages where they played doubles, and they barely lost to a 3rd court Synchro team, I want to see them go against other high tier middle schoolers, like atobe kingdom vs absolute prediction, wild beast aura vs sanada black aura, i doubt that theyd win, but at least it would be nice to see how they stack against other good players

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    I want to see the Two Wings of Kyushuu in action in SPOT, in POT they were both national level players, and they both had special abilities, Tachibana with his wild beast aura, and Chitose with his muga, but neither really got a good chance to really go all out , Tachibana had sealed off his real abilities for most of POT, which is why he lost to Akaya, and he finally showed a lot of his true power against Chitose, but he let himself get hit in the eye and wouldn't hit balls towards Chitoses bad eye, and its because of this that Chitose was able to return Wild Ball, otherwise he wouldn't have won on that shot. Chitose went all out against Tezuka and Tachibana, but since Tezuka was able to use two muga doors at once, Chitose had no chance against him, and because Tachibana as limiting his shots only to his good side, its hard to know what would have happend if Tachibana had gone for his opponents weakness.

    In SPOT, all they had was a couple pages where they played doubles, and they barely lost to a 3rd court Synchro team, I want to see them go against other high tier middle schoolers, like atobe kingdom vs absolute prediction, wild beast aura vs sanada black aura, i doubt that theyd win, but at least it would be nice to see how they stack against other good players
    They lost to a team who is made fodder by no 11-20 1st stringer who is now a fodder in G10 Standard. They just don't cut it. They'll magically get improve on their next match, I'm sure. But right now, they're 3rd level, which is way below other 1st stringer.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    They lost to a team who is made fodder by no 11-20 1st stringer who is now a fodder in G10 Standard. They just don't cut it. They'll magically get improve on their next match, I'm sure. But right now, they're 3rd level, which is way below other 1st stringer.
    they did lose to the team who was beaten by the 11-20 1string twins, thats true, but they were playing doubles for the first time in over a year(back when they were on the same team), and they were up against a team that can use synchro, and tachibana wasn't shown with his wild beast aura, and chitose can't use pinnacle of wisdom in doubles. When oishi and niou went up against the 11-20 1string twins, it was shown that the brothers had higher physical abilities then oishi and niou, and they were only able to win because niou was able to tap into their synchro, otherwise they would have lost as well, and niou is G10 level, since he is the no 10 rep(at least he is unless he has to give it up due to injuries). While the two wings might not be top tier, I'm pretty sure that they can easily be 11-20 1string level. I can't be sure since all the players full abilities haven't really been shown yet, but i'm pretty sure that tachibana is better than momo, and chitose is better than kenya(once again, can't be completely sure of these two predictions since these pairings have never been in manga, but i think they are safe predictions), yet momo and kenya are 1string

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    100% agree with your point.
    Well not totally, fyi ZSS wasn't unreturnable. In the manga Sanada returned it.
    The Ka-Rin-Rai Return aside, Mouri's Chip Shot, or whatever you want to call it, can also return ZSS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Hyakkuren was not unreturnable. Chitose showed us that you just need to hit shots with more technique and not too much power to make it more or less useless.
    That's true to some extent, but Chitose also had Saiki and Saiki outmatches Hyakuren head to head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    And also you can just be a player who has far more physical strength than his appearance suggests like Sanada who tore apart Hyakkuren + Tezuka Zone from the first point.
    The problem with that statement, Airgrimes, if that while Ka beats Zone head to head (however that works), when Tezuka activated Hyakuren, he ripped the Ka back and Sanada had to activate Rai to teleport in order to return the doubled Ka.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    And personally, I don't think Niou would have dropped a point Disappearing Serve. Shiraishi wrecked it. That neat pivot to the side to return it was beast.
    Tezuka!Niou was a pretty good replica of Tezuka only not being good enough to use ZSS so Niou would have returned Disappearing Serve immediately.
    I think Fuji would have used it otherwise since it would give Mid tier and below guys difficulty.
    Niou wouldn't have any problems returning Cut Serve.

    Well, Niou only used Hyakuren for an instant, so that part's not the same. I actually argue that Niou's a better physical athlete than Tezuka in a lot of ways.

    While it wasn't discussed in your post, in terms of Heca, Tezuka!Niou cleanly returned Heca (thereby preventing Hoshi Hanabi) and if Niou can do it, then Tezuka can do it.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    While it wasn't discussed in your post, in terms of Heca, Tezuka!Niou cleanly returned Heca (thereby preventing Hoshi Hanabi) and if Niou can do it, then Tezuka can do it.
    is that true? Tezuka!Niou was able to return Heca, but at this point Niou also had the abiity to become Shiraishii, who was the person who first broke the fifth counter, is it certain that Tezuka!Niou was able to return Heca because Tezuka can, and not because Niou could use his illusion to become shiraishi? since tezuka has never gone up against Heca and shiraishi has

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    Re: Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    is that true? Tezuka!Niou was able to return Heca, but at this point Niou also had the abiity to become Shiraishii, who was the person who first broke the fifth counter, is it certain that Tezuka!Niou was able to return Heca because Tezuka can, and not because Niou could use his illusion to become shiraishi? since tezuka has never gone up against Heca and shiraishi has
    Actually, when Niou becomes Tezuka, Niou can cleanly return Heca, but Shiraishi!Niou still causes a cordball, which is why Fuji can use Hoshi Hanabi.

    As we saw in SPoT against Ochi/Mouri, Illusion is really just the visual illusion, but Niou has the ability to replicate the techniques on his own. If you'll recall, when Niou's using Phantom, after a while, he loses the visual illusion, but he continues to be able to use Phantom.

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