Tier List (Singles and Doubles)

[redhairSH]

It doesn't matter who Konomi put against them. They rank lower than Ban/Date, Ochi/Mouri, Kimijima/Tohno. I think you overrating the power of syncho pair.

Pair that WoK lost to rank lower than that. A lot lower, actually.

WoK are two players that haven't played together in at least a year, and because it was a doubles match chitose couldn't use his absolute prediction, and tachibana wasn't shown using his wild beast aura.

The 3rd court team play together so much that they can use synchro, and they lost because they Mutsu brothers had higher physical abilities, since they were both using synchro

The Mutsu brother also had higher physical abilities than oishi and niou, the current all japan no.'s 16 and 10, and only lost because of niou's illusion

No synchro team has lost on POT or NPOT unless they went up against another synchro team, so it wasn't surprising that WoK lost once the high schoolers used synchro

WoK was chosen by Oni to play in that match, and Oni planned on them losing, in each match the middle schoolers had to face an opponent that was a bad match for them, the one hit kill iceman had to face a guy who kept getting up, increasing krausers stamina. Shiraishi and Akaya faced a pair that forced them to both unlock their full potential to win, keeping his mind in devil mode and taking off the gauntlet. Tezuka faced an opponent that helped him realize that he set out what he wanted, and that he could now play for himself, and he unlocked the final muga door. Atobe faced an opponent who could use his insight against him, forcing him to awaken atobe kingdom. Everyone improved after their match, win or lose, so next time we see the WoK, it can be pretty much certain that they will kick ass

[-Ken-]

WoK are two players that haven't played together in at least a year, and because it was a doubles match chitose couldn't use his absolute prediction, and tachibana wasn't shown using his wild beast aura.

The 3rd court team play together so much that they can use synchro, and they lost because they Mutsu brothers had higher physical abilities, since they were both using synchro

The Mutsu brother also had higher physical abilities than oishi and niou, the current all japan no.'s 16 and 10, and only lost because of niou's illusion

No synchro team has lost on POT or NPOT unless they went up against another synchro team, so it wasn't surprising that WoK lost once the high schoolers used synchro

WoK was chosen by Oni to play in that match, and Oni planned on them losing, in each match the middle schoolers had to face an opponent that was a bad match for them, the one hit kill iceman had to face a guy who kept getting up, increasing krausers stamina. Shiraishi and Akaya faced a pair that forced them to both unlock their full potential to win, keeping his mind in devil mode and taking off the gauntlet. Tezuka faced an opponent that helped him realize that he set out what he wanted, and that he could now play for himself, and he unlocked the final muga door. Atobe faced an opponent who could use his insight against him, forcing him to awaken atobe kingdom. Everyone improved after their match, win or lose, so next time we see the WoK, it can be pretty much certain that they will kick ass

This is all future match, though. And for 100th times, I'm talking about tier list of where people is right now in the manga, not where they'll end up being in the future. Like I said, and no one response, we knows Echizen is fated to be top at the end of manga. Why bother ever placing him anywhere else. This statement show how ridiculous it is to take future match into accounts.

And while Syncho have always won against non syncho pair in the manga, but Mutsu is rank lower than 3 pair in 1st stringer. Syncho is not an end all technique. Forget Mutsu, 3rd Court Doubles should be weaker than 2nd court or 1st court doubles, or else they'll be in a higher court. It's the very point of court shuffle. And guess what, they aren't mention to be stronger than their current court like Irie or Oni or even hiding tech like Yamato.

[Airgrimes]

Back to my debate with Ken,

You still haven't proved me wrong.
There is ZERO evidence that suggests that Tachibana and Chitose are 3rd Court level in Singles.
And in a match where Kenya is unquestionably out of his depth and nothing but a weakling when on the court with Momoshiro, Tachibana and Chitose, it comes down to Singles abilities.
Whereas against a Synchro pair, it is very much down to Doubles prowess.

So to say Tachibana and Chitose are 3rd Court level is wrong. Show me a page that says they are individually.
This means that there is not enough evidence to assume BJK will KO Tachibana.

Secondly, Chitose is not Hara or Taira who were unsure of whether or not it was BJK. They ask themselves in fear "Is that...?" and try and hit it.
Chitose now knows its BJK. He is obviously going to use his teamwork with Tachibana. WoK is a canon pair.
Nothing suggests that Chitose would go and aim for it.
Secondly, since when was Momoshiro skillful enough to hit Jack Knifes constantly on demand?? He isn't.

Nothing suggests that Taira/Hara knew it was a BJK. Had they known I strongly doubt they would both go for it.

So its whenever Momo gets the chance to hit Jack Knives. Something that Kenya can't even set up for him to do.

Honestly, you have to take into account that Momoshiro isn't that good besides having BJK.
His technique isn't special, neither is his speed.

More importantly, if Momoshiro can survive several BJK's from Oni, and Oni in terms of stats is far better than Momoshiro,
Why wouldn't Tachibana, a player known for his power, when using Mojuu no Aura which boosts his power, be able to survive BJK?
It literally makes no sense.
After that Mojuu no Aura, Tachibana was definitely stronger than Momo.
Since Konomi decided to give him Nature Insight instead of lift his power.

You have to be rational and unbiased here, Chitose and Tachibana at Nationals would have murdered Momoshiro.
But after Nationals!Momoshiro survived VARIOUS BJK's from Oni Juujiro. A got damn beast,

You expect me to believe Fayte and I are the only people who think Tachibana won't survive a BJK from Momoshiro who is significantly weaker than Oni?
When Nationals!Tachibana > Nationals!Momoshiro??

I gave examples of lots of other canon pairs that will move out of the way for a shot for their partner to handle, Marui for Jackal, Date for Ban etc.
So please don't expect somebody of Chitose level to really go for it and hit back BJK.

Its not a question of if Tachibana can return it, but if he can survive it.
Because that is all WoK need to win. Someone to survive it. Momoshiro is BJK and nothing else at the top tier. If that is survived then he is a pile of mess.
Kamikakushi >>> Kenya, Abare Dama >>>> Kenya and Momo, Chitose's Muga >>> Kenya,
Momoshiro's BJK >>>> Chitose and we can't really confirm with somebody as strong as Tachibana.


So again, I just want to ask who else thinks Momoshiro's BJK will KO Tachibana?

[-Ken-]

Secondly, Chitose is not Hara or Taira who were unsure of whether or not it was BJK. They ask themselves in fear "Is that...?" and try and hit it.
Chitose now knows its BJK. He is obviously going to use his teamwork with Tachibana. WoK is a canon pair.
Nothing suggests that Chitose would go and aim for it.
Secondly, since when was Momoshiro skillful enough to hit Jack Knifes constantly on demand?? He isn't.

Actually, Chitose have no knowledge of whether or not Momoshiro earn BJK. Show me a page that he knows. What if he thinks, oh, it's just Jack Knife, I can handle that. And opps, game over? As soon as Chitose hit BJK, game is over for WoK unless they are ahead 4-0 or 5-0. So while Chitose might know, he also might not know. In fact, based to manga, because there's no camera that take video of black jersey match, it's more reasonable to assume that he didn't know. I don't think this is a good point to raise.

Honestly, you have to take into account that Momoshiro isn't that good besides having BJK.
His technique isn't special, neither is his speed.

More importantly, if Momoshiro can survive several BJK's from Oni, and Oni in terms of stats is far better than Momoshiro,
Why wouldn't Tachibana, a player known for his power, when using Mojuu no Aura which boosts his power, be able to survive BJK?
It literally makes no sense.
After that Mojuu no Aura, Tachibana was definitely stronger than Momo.
Since Konomi decided to give him Nature Insight instead of lift his power.

You have to be rational and unbiased here, Chitose and Tachibana at Nationals would have murdered Momoshiro.
But after Nationals!Momoshiro survived VARIOUS BJK's from Oni Juujiro. A got damn beast,

You expect me to believe Fayte and I are the only people who think Tachibana won't survive a BJK from Momoshiro who is significantly weaker than Oni?
When Nationals!Tachibana > Nationals!Momoshiro??

Tachibana was known for being a violent player. I don't recall a page where enemy w
Nationals!Tachibana > Nationals!Momoshiro. But does that says a things about SPOT Tachibana and SPOT Momoshiro?

We all knows that training in mountain appears to raise player ability more than U17. Thus, we can assume that the gap in base stat between Momoshiro and Tachibana is closer to before. BJK appear to be a stronger tech than Abare Dame. So it's Momoshiro> Tachibana in terms of tech. But Tachibana> Momoshiro in terms of stat.

I gave examples of lots of other canon pairs that will move out of the way for a shot for their partner to handle, Marui for Jackal, Date for Ban etc.
So please don't expect somebody of Chitose level to really go for it and hit back

It's unfair for you to state things like WoK haven't play together for a year. Thus their teamwork must be weaker than 3rd court, and also state stuff like this. If their teamwork is not as good as Champion Pair, or the canon pair that we have known they have been playing doubles together, how could we know that they'll be playing the same way? Those players ARE KNOWN for playing doubles. WoK haven't play with each other for a long time. Based on what we know, I think it's too little to assume this.

Its not a question of if Tachibana can return it, but if he can survive it.
Because that is all WoK need to win. Someone to survive it. Momoshiro is BJK and nothing else at the top tier. If that is survived then he is a pile of mess.
Kamikakushi >>> Kenya, Abare Dama >>>> Kenya and Momo, Chitose's Muga >>> Kenya,
Momoshiro's BJK >>>> Chitose and we can't really confirm with somebody as strong as Tachibana.


So again, I just want to ask who else thinks Momoshiro's BJK will KO Tachibana?

And as I stated before, just because Tachibana might survives, it doesn't matter in tier list. It's like...

Let's set some number so you can easily understand it. Don't be picking me up on number, it's just some random number. Because I stated this, if anyone picking up details on number rather than argument, that person is dumb.

Momoshiro have power level of 60, with special ability to instant against anyone who haven't shown feat of power.

Average 1st stringer is, say, 80. So they lost to Momoshiro because of Momo ability.

Tachibana have power level of 70. I think that's fair, higher than Momoshiro, I can argue otherwise, but let's assume this because I want to show that it doesn't matter in this argument. They WILL lost against 1st stringer. But only beat Momoshiro due to being able to survive BJK.

Is that fair to rank Momoshiro below Tachibana when he would have crush any players that Tachibana won't be able to crush?

Note that this is the bast case for Tachibana. If Momoshiro power level, due to upgrade from BJK, puts him at 70, or 80. It doesn't look like you need to argue why Momoshiro should be rank higher than Tachibana at all.

[Phantron]

In POT it's common to have guy X in the fodder tier do some random new move and then someone proclaim fodder X is now more powerful than guy Y from a higher tier. In the Kantou Tournament it's said that everyone on the Rikkidai is Tezuka tier, and based on what we've seen from Tezuka at that point, that statement is not an exaggeration and it'd be fair to say that at the end of Kantou Tournament, Tezuka is just an average guy on his own team because 3 guys on his own team just beat 3 Tezuka tier guys in singles.

Normally this isn't a problem because soon after this character Y will get his turn to reveal that he was previously playing at 10% of his full powers, and order is restored again. In the previous case Tezuka simply increases his tier by revealing he has sealed some totally awesome techniques for no reason. But while POT is very predictable in the way the characters re-establish their tier levels, you can't preemptively assume a previously high level character always gets the benefit of the doubt. Kirihara, who is supposed to be someone who can challenge the Rikkidai Big 3, never actually got the benefit of the doubt (he's more like the punching bag of the big 3 based on his accomplishments), so this isn't automatic. In NPOT with its way too many characters, there's no guaranteed anybody outside of a few sure bets (Ryoma, Kintaro, Sanada, Atobe, etc) is even going to get another appearance so the usual 'Y reveals his sealed power' doesn't come into play. If the WoK actually gets another game they'd almost certainly be far above Momoshiro/Kenya because they'd have to be matched up against someone far stronger and at least come close to winning, but right now you can't be sure if they'll even get another game to redeem themselves.

The question 'Can Tachibana return BJK?' is loaded because you're implying Tachibana is higher tier due to his past association as a WoK. The correct question is 'can a court 3 guy return BJK' because that's where Tachibana and Chitose are at right now. The answer to that is 'probably not' though it remains unknown if BJK would be a One Hit KO move on a court 3 guy, which is a totally different thing. If BJK doesn't OHKO then it's possible to overcome it but there just isn't enough information to determine it one way or another so Momoshiro/Kenya has to be favored due to defeating superior opponents.

[Fayte]

Actually, Chitose have no knowledge of whether or not Momoshiro earn BJK. Show me a page that he knows. What if he thinks, oh, it's just Jack Knife, I can handle that. And opps, game over? As soon as Chitose hit BJK, game is over for WoK unless they are ahead 4-0 or 5-0. So while Chitose might know, he also might not know. In fact, based to manga, because there's no camera that take video of black jersey match, it's more reasonable to assume that he didn't know. I don't think this is a good point to raise.

You are comparing apples to oranges. That's like saying Sanada would have trouble with Ishida Tetsu's Hadoukyuu simply because it blew racquets away a couple of times when the technique was first introduced. You completely overlook the difference in tiers. Ishida Tetsu is a low class scrub with a high level technique. Tetsu's hadoukyuu is not Taka's or Gin's. Tetsu makes the technique worse. In the same way, Momoshiro IS NOT ONI. Oni is a high tier character, Momo is not, therefore Momo makes BJK worse. Momo would never play against the likes of Chitose or Tachibana. They are in their own tier. Momo is Zaizen- trying to hit the ball and missing. That is the difference in tier.

I don't recall a page where Nationals!Tachibana > Nationals!Momoshiro.

I don't recall a page where Tachibana > Horio either. That doesn't mean there isn't evidence he is.

BJK appear to be a stronger tech than Abare Dame.

Yeah because this and this really shows how Abare Dama is weaker, right? It's not like every time Tachibana uses it, he auto-wins a game or anything.

Is that fair to rank Momoshiro below Tachibana when he would have crush any players that Tachibana won't be able to crush?

Uh, yes? Just like it is fair to rank Kantou Tachibana above Kantou Fuji, even though Fuji defeated the person who crushed Tachibana.

[-Ken-]

You are comparing apples to oranges. That's like saying Sanada would have trouble with Ishida Tetsu's Hadoukyuu simply because it blew racquets away a couple of times when the technique was first introduced. You completely overlook the difference in tiers. Ishida Tetsu is a low class scrub with a high level technique. Tetsu's hadoukyuu is not Taka's or Gin's. Tetsu makes the technique worse. In the same way, Momoshiro IS NOT ONI. Oni is a high tier character, Momo is not, therefore Momo makes BJK worse. Momo would never play against the likes of Chitose or Tachibana. They are in their own tier. Momo is Zaizen- trying to hit the ball and missing. That is the difference in tier.

Well, I could say the same thing. In SPoT, Tachibana is scrub tier. He's 3rd court. Momoshiro is 1st stringer tier. He's not the same as he is in PoT, stopping mixing it up. The tier different means that Tachibana doesn't stand a chance in hell against Momoshiro. This kind of argument only extends so far.

Yeah because this and this really shows how Abare Dama is weaker, right? It's not like every time Tachibana uses it, he auto-wins a game or anything.

Well, Abare Dame is a tech that fails to beat 3rd court. BJK is the tech that succeed to beat 1st stringer. Don't compare that epic fail of a tech that haven't done anything remotely interesting to BJK. BJK forced Kintarou to use his absolutely best tech that's more dangerous than 108th Hadoukyuu, the very shot that break a freakin spotlight to return it. It crushs Momoshiro wrists. It beat 2 1st stringer. In those two link, he got a point off 3rd court, which is hardly a feats. For the other pic? The other guy is horrible player.

Uh, yes? Just like it is fair to rank Kantou Tachibana above Kantou Fuji, even though Fuji defeated the person who crushed Tachibana.

Kantou Tachibana doesn't have Beast Aura. It's National Tachibana that have beast aura. So no, it's not fair. And the 2 situation aren't the same. Let's say it this way

A beat 100 players.

B beat A, but would lost to 100 players

Who's rank higher? How is that the same as this?

I believe Tachibana used Beast Aura against 3rd court. No, it doesn't show the moment. But he losts the match. So it's either

1. Beast Aura can't be used in double, or Tachibana get too dumb to use it, which would make Tachibana lost against Momoshiro for sure

or

2. He use it, but still lost.

Either way, the only tech that we knows is definitely seal in doubles is SnK. If Tachibana didn't use beast aura back when he fought 3rd court, I don't know why he'll be using it in his match with Momoshiro. His match with 3rd court is definitely important. Looks at how much Tezuka and Atobe puts on the line for it. In fact, I assume that the very fact that his team can keep up with Syncho (because WoK was 3-3 with 3rd court before) was because he pull out Beast Aura.

[Fayte]

Well, Abare Dame is a tech that fails to beat 3rd court. BJK is the tech that succeed to beat 1st stringer. Don't compare that epic fail of a tech that haven't done anything remotely interesting to BJK.

Just because someone doesn't spam a technique to win doesn't mean the technique isn't good. That's like saying Rai is a fail technique because Sanada didn't use it to win. Your logic is borderline retarded.

Kantou Tachibana doesn't have Beast Aura. It's National Tachibana that have beast aura.

Uh, yes he does. Tachibana played Fuji BEFORE the Nationals even started. Pre-nationals is still Kantou Tachibana.

[-Ken-]

Just because someone doesn't spam a technique to win doesn't mean the technique isn't good. That's like saying Rai is a fail technique because Sanada didn't use it to win. Your logic is borderline retarded.

When one tech beats a higher tier when one tech fail to beat a lower tier character, that does matter.

That actually should be aim toward your logic of trying to use characters tier in PoT to justify their tier in SPoT when it clearly have change. It is

borderline retarded.

Indeed.

Uh, yes he does. Tachibana played Fuji BEFORE the Nationals even started. Pre-nationals is still Kantou Tachibana.

Kantou arc ends for me when Seigaku beat Rikkai. Maybe it end at different point for you. That part is actually between Kantou and National arc. Kantou already ends. National hasn't start yet. That's a convenient way to put it. How about

Tachibana played Fuji AFTER Kantou tournament end. Post-Kantou is already National Tachibana. I mean, they ARE training for National. Kantou part is already over and done with.

[Fayte]

When one tech beats a higher tier when one tech fail to beat a lower tier character, that does matter.

*facepalm*

Kantou arc ends for me when Seigaku beat Rikkai. Maybe it end at different point for you. That part is actually between Kantou and National arc. Kantou already ends. National hasn't start yet. That's a convenient way to put it. How about

Tachibana played Fuji AFTER Kantou tournament end. Post-Kantou is already National Tachibana. I mean, they ARE training for National. Kantou part is already over and done with.

So you would say the Momoshiro that played against Oni was not Nationals Momo? People are the same until they improve. Every tie-break match at the beginning of the U-17 were all between the Nationals level players. They did not achieve U-17 status until AFTER the first upgrade (which was the Revolution arc for most people). This has always been the easiest way of distinguishing between arcs for individual characters. When it comes to Fuji, Nationals Fuji did not begin until the 4th counter against Higa- and was perfected against Shiraishi. The Fuji that played Tachibana was no different from the Fuji that played Kirihara, making him Kantou Fuji. His whole purpose for playing Tachibana to begin with was to see if his current skill level was enough to survive in the Nationals, or if he needed to go higher. I rest my case.

[-Ken-]

*facepalm*



So you would say the Momoshiro that played against Oni was not Nationals Momo? People are the same until they improve. Every tie-break match at the beginning of the U-17 were all between the Nationals level players. They did not achieve U-17 status until AFTER the first upgrade (which was the Revolution arc for most people). This has always been the easiest way of distinguishing between arcs for individual characters. When it comes to Fuji, Nationals Fuji did not begin until the 4th counter against Higa- and was perfected against Shiraishi. The Fuji that played Tachibana was no different from the Fuji that played Kirihara, making him Kantou Fuji. His whole purpose for playing Tachibana to begin with was to see if his current skill level was enough to survive in the Nationals, or if he needed to go higher. I rest my case.

Right, and Tachibana gains his upgrade after Kantou tournament end. The match is set place after Kantou tournament. That makes it post Kantou already.

Post-Kantou, Pre-National. Like I said, it depends on how you categorize Kantou and National. I don't see how help your case. Oh, and by

People are the same until they improve.

You're right! WoK are 3rd court until they show they improve! And Momoshiro is 1st stringer. If you want me to babywalk you to a page, I can do it.

[Airgrimes]

Actually, Chitose have no knowledge of whether or not Momoshiro earn BJK. Show me a page that he knows. What if he thinks, oh, it's just Jack Knife, I can handle that. And opps, game over? As soon as Chitose hit BJK, game is over for WoK unless they are ahead 4-0 or 5-0. So while Chitose might know, he also might not know. In fact, based to manga, because there's no camera that take video of black jersey match, it's more reasonable to assume that he didn't know. I don't think this is a good point to raise.

Fair enough. Still doesn't confirm Chitose will run towards BJK.

Tachibana was known for being a violent player. I don't recall a page where enemy w
Nationals!Tachibana > Nationals!Momoshiro. But does that says a things about SPOT Tachibana and SPOT Momoshiro?

I don't really understand what you're saying.
But based on abilities shown in Nationals, at that time Tachibana would have definetely defeated Momo. I mean... Momoshiro lost to Yushi...
I think it still applies. Since outside of BJK, Momoshiro is not a Top tier player. He is Mid tier without it.
As long as his opponent can survive BJK, they can get points from Momo because its not like he has a great defense or anything. He isn't fast or known to have great technique.

We all knows that training in mountain appears to raise player ability more than U17. Thus, we can assume that the gap in base stat between Momoshiro and Tachibana is closer to before. BJK appear to be a stronger tech than Abare Dame. So it's Momoshiro> Tachibana in terms of tech. But Tachibana> Momoshiro in terms of stat.

Precisely this. I agree with you here.
In terms of special shots, Momoshiro has an amazing shot in BJK. Better than whatever Tachibana has.
However, it should be common sense that Momo's BJK is significantly weaker than Oni's.
This is because Oni can lift boulders and Momoshiro most certainly cannot.
So because Momo can survive Oni's BJK's its only natural that somebody like Tachibana who when he uses Mojuu no Aura would be strong enough to survive one from Momo.
Momo's HAS to be much weaker than Oni's.

It's unfair for you to state things like WoK haven't play together for a year. Thus their teamwork must be weaker than 3rd court, and also state stuff like this. If their teamwork is not as good as Champion Pair, or the canon pair that we have known they have been playing doubles together, how could we know that they'll be playing the same way? Those players ARE KNOWN for playing doubles. WoK haven't play with each other for a long time. Based on what we know, I think it's too little to assume this.

Now that they are in the camp, considering that there have been many makeshift pairs who can work together, its unfair to think that for the 1-2 weeks its been since the Team Shuffle that WoK have the same level of teamwork as the Team Shuffle.
If Data Pair hadn't teamed up for over... 4 years? But can work together, its unfair to assume that after all these makeshift pairs, WoK's teamwork is as rusty as it was before.
You say known for playing Doubles... WoK ARE KNOWN for playing Doubles.
From this page,

it pretty much confirms that these pairs are training together pretty much the same.
Of all the canon pairs WoK were amongst those shown. This should clear any doubt of the teamwork right now since its pretty clear they train together.

And as I stated before, just because Tachibana might survives, it doesn't matter in tier list. It's like...

Let's set some number so you can easily understand it. Don't be picking me up on number, it's just some random number. Because I stated this, if anyone picking up details on number rather than argument, that person is dumb.

Momoshiro have power level of 60, with special ability to instant against anyone who haven't shown feat of power.

Average 1st stringer is, say, 80. So they lost to Momoshiro because of Momo ability.

Tachibana have power level of 70. I think that's fair, higher than Momoshiro, I can argue otherwise, but let's assume this because I want to show that it doesn't matter in this argument. They WILL lost against 1st stringer. But only beat Momoshiro due to being able to survive BJK.

Is that fair to rank Momoshiro below Tachibana when he would have crush any players that Tachibana won't be able to crush?

Note that this is the bast case for Tachibana. If Momoshiro power level, due to upgrade from BJK, puts him at 70, or 80. It doesn't look like you need to argue why Momoshiro should be rank higher than Tachibana at all.

Thing is... In Singles... Why would Tachibana lose to Taira? or Hara?
Tachibana would kick their ass? Why? Hara in Singles is obviously not 11-20 level. That much is clear.
The danger of their pair was Taira. He has Bakyuun. A weak shot that pierces strings.
Abare Dama WILL hit back Bakyuun since it uses the racket frame.

So... We don't know from what level Momoshiro can crush that Tachibana cannot crush.
More importantly, Taira it seems cannot hit Bakyuun from any position like Momo cannot Jack Knife from any position.
So even Chitose could seal him from hitting it with SKnK in Singles.

Nothing fully shows that in simple Singles Momo > Tachibana.

So in Singles, we can't confirm anything between Tachibana and Momo.

As I said before Taira/Hara wouldn't be in the 1st String if Oni, Irie and Tokugawa took their places.
They were pretty weak. All they had was Bakyuun and good technique. Moukohan will overwhelm Kenya and Momo w/out BJK because Kenya is Lower Mid and Momo w/out BJK is Mid.

Who could Momo crush? Mitsuya? We don't know. No.17 was a Singles player so Mitsuya in theory would have been stronger than Mutsu's in Singles.
Akiba? Since unlike G10, 11-20 are positioned differently.
Taira/Hara are the weakest in 11-20 without question and we don't know just how powerful Momo's BJK is. It beat Taira/Hara.
Can Momo/Kenya beat just anybody in 11-20? We don't know.

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

The question 'Can Tachibana return BJK?' is loaded because you're implying Tachibana is higher tier due to his past association as a WoK. The correct question is 'can a court 3 guy return BJK' because that's where Tachibana and Chitose are at right now. The answer to that is 'probably not' though it remains unknown if BJK would be a One Hit KO move on a court 3 guy, which is a totally different thing. If BJK doesn't OHKO then it's possible to overcome it but there just isn't enough information to determine it one way or another so Momoshiro/Kenya has to be favored due to defeating superior opponents.

You have to read the discussion between me and Ken to understand.
The debate between me and Ken changed as NOTHING suggests that in SINGLES Tachibana and Chitose are Court 3 level.
They are ABSOLUTELY NOT Court 3 level in Singles.
Not even Nationals!Shiraishi was.

Which is why Ken and I are now discussing them without the Court 3 issue.
Saying Tachibana is Court 3 level is BASELESS.
However, against a Court 3 pair in Synchro, Abare Dama didn't work.

Washio/Suzuki without Synchro would have been crushed by a serious WoK.
Since the first time Chitose and Tachibana use their combo of Kamikakushi and Abare Dama they get a swift point and Washio/Suzuki realize that they will die if they don't bring out Synchro.

This means that in Singles to say that WoK are Court 3 level is going beyond retarded.

[-Ken-]

Fair enough. Still doesn't confirm Chitose will run towards BJK.

So it's 50/50 percent chance of either pair winning depending on who hit the ball first? Since Tachibana was not shown to hit JK before, he might not know the impact different between BJK and JK. If so, he might not warned Chitose. And it reminds me, would Tachibana answer BJK, without knowing it's BJK, with both Beast Aura and Abare Dame from the very first time? His match with 3rd court as well as his match with Chitose suggests otherwise. As for Momoshiro, he activated his JK as soon as he had a chance in every match. Since BJK had the same execution, it's not unimaginable to think they can do the same.
This is also assuming that on the very first BJK hit, Tachibana already activate his Beast Aura as well as deciding to use Abare Dame to hit it back.

I don't really understand what you're saying.
But based on abilities shown in Nationals, at that time Tachibana would have definetely defeated Momo. I mean... Momoshiro lost to Yushi...
I think it still applies. Since outside of BJK, Momoshiro is not a Top tier player. He is Mid tier without it.
As long as his opponent can survive BJK, they can get points from Momo because its not like he has a great defense or anything. He isn't fast or known to have great technique.

But he does have it. Mind you, without Beast Aura, Tachibana get fodder by Kirihaya. Earning a new tech earn you a new tier. I can't imagine taking BJK constantly not be taxing for Tachibana at all. JK crush Oshitari because he's been taking it the entire match. And we're talking about BJK here, which impact is greatly increased. I don't see player of Tachibana caiber taking it for the entire match without hand numbing side effects. Also, if we expand it to best of 3 match like the way 1st stringer right now, it means that Chitose have to avoid touching BJK for 10 game (6-0 first game, and 4-0 in second set) for WoK to wins all in all. And that also means Tachibana have to be able to take BJK with no damage at all for the entirety of however game that lasts. I think that's quite a far fetch assumption.

Your point on Momoshiro and Oni is fair.

On the data pair, they have been known as unbeatable pair before they break up. WoK, on the other hand, got their fame from being good as a player and not being a pair. It's different. That page is just saying that from the point where 3rd court beats them, they have been practicing together. as a pair It doesn't show form their past as WoK. I'll admit they are best friends. But that doesn't translate to double pair. Momoshiro And Echizen are good friends. It even mention it. See how well they play together? It's not correlated.

Thing is... In Singles... Why would Tachibana lose to Taira? or Hara?
Tachibana would kick their ass? Why? Hara in Singles is obviously not 11-20 level. That much is clear.
The danger of their pair was Taira. He has Bakyuun. A weak shot that pierces strings.
Abare Dama WILL hit back Bakyuun since it uses the racket frame.

If you can suggests that Tachibana and Chitose can seals Momoshiro can hitting BJK, I can do the same here. Abare Dame actually require even more of a position to hit back. And I doubt 1st stringer will have a hard time sealing off 3rd court pair tech. Taira/Hara is different from Momoshiro/Kenya. Their base stat is up there, because they trash Momoshiro and Kenya pretty nicely before BJK. Even if Taira Hara wouldn't be in 1st stringer if Oni, Irie, And Tokugawa tooks their place, they will still be in 1st court. And 1st court is still higher than 3rd court.

I'll also like to remind you that 11-20 ranking not being based on player's power is purely fan speculation. Looking at no 1 player being the strongest in the camp, the manga actually is suggesting that the ranking IS based on the player skill.

Base stat takes you anywhere if it's high enough. For proof, looks at Mouri. He really doesn't look like he have any business being in G10. But he is, without the special tech.

I think Mitsuya would have crush both Taira AND Hara (well, in singles anyways). He's number 17. And the pair is 18 19. The question is that can Hara/Taira beat number 20? I think he can.

The more interesting question would have been would Mutsu lost to Mitsuya? That's a far more interesting question. But due to not knowing the Mutsu base stat, it's really hard to tell.

[Airgrimes]

So it's 50/50 percent chance of either pair winning depending on who hit the ball first? Since Tachibana was not shown to hit JK before, he might not know the impact different between BJK and JK. If so, he might not warned Chitose. And it reminds me, would Tachibana answer BJK, without knowing it's BJK, with both Beast Aura and Abare Dame from the very first time? His match with 3rd court as well as his match with Chitose suggests otherwise. As for Momoshiro, he activated his JK as soon as he had a chance in every match. Since BJK had the same execution, it's not unimaginable to think they can do the same.
This is also assuming that on the very first BJK hit, Tachibana already activate his Beast Aura as well as deciding to use Abare Dame to hit it back.

Fair enough. I can agree with your reasoning that Momoshiro will be too much for Chitose full stop. Unless anybody else here can give evidence otherwise I agree with you now.
But Momoshiro couldn't even spam JK since it is a two-handed shot which requires positioning so it leaves many openings.
Unfortunately, Momo will be conceding several games until he gets the opportunity to KO Chitose.
Since whilst Chitose can spam Kamikakushi from whenever and wherever he wants, Momo cannot do the same with BJK as with JK.

Didn't Tachibana see JK when Momoshiro during the Regionals Finals? and Nationals Semifinals?
Also, remember that BJK visually in both manga and anime looks completely different to BJK.

So Tachibana will know immediately that its a different impact.
As for Tachibana I'm not entirely moved on whether Momo will beat him.

But he does have it. Mind you, without Beast Aura, Tachibana get fodder by Kirihaya. Earning a new tech earn you a new tier. I can't imagine taking BJK constantly not be taxing for Tachibana at all. JK crush Oshitari because he's been taking it the entire match. And we're talking about BJK here, which impact is greatly increased.

Yes, but as long as the opponent can survive it, Momo is nothing because for some reason Konomi didn't increase Momo's general abilitites.

Just like Kaidoh got Gyro Laser, he gave a mid tier player a near godly move.
For example, because Kaji was cited to have no trouble with Oni's BJK.
Kaji would murder Momoshiro. Like... Wipe the floor with the guy, but we don't know how badly he would beat Tachibana.
Because Tachibana regardless of Abare Dama we know would have decent stats.
Whereas Momo doesn't. The moment BJK doesn't work he is dead.

But sure Momo VS Chitose? I'll agree with you on Momo right now.
And I might agree with you on Tachibana since over a long period of time perhaps BJK will get to him.

I don't see player of Tachibana caiber taking it for the entire match without hand numbing side effects. Also, if we expand it to best of 3 match like the way 1st stringer right now, it means that Chitose have to avoid touching BJK for 10 game (6-0 first game, and 4-0 in second set) for WoK to wins all in all. And that also means Tachibana have to be able to take BJK with no damage at all for the entirety of however game that lasts. I think that's quite a far fetch assumption.

Fair enough.

Your point on Momoshiro and Oni is fair.

On the data pair, they have been known as unbeatable pair before they break up. WoK, on the other hand, got their fame from being good as a player and not being a pair. It's different. That page is just saying that from the point where 3rd court beats them, they have been practicing together. as a pair It doesn't show form their past as WoK. I'll admit they are best friends. But that doesn't translate to double pair. Momoshiro And Echizen are good friends. It even mention it. See how well they play together? It's not correlated.

Well... its different.
Momoshiro and Echizen just met at Seigaku.
WoK are a weaker equivalent to Data Pair and to a further extent Yuki/Sanada.
WoK went Elementary School together so have known each other since they were really small.
They're literally just like Data Pair in that respect.
Also, against Washio/Suzuki, Chitose says its been a year since they paired up, and that it was against a "Dai-Senpai".

Also, it was never confirmed whether or not they were Singles-only players and it was never stated they didn't play Doubles.
After that match, it can be assumed they were a Doubles pair after what Chitose says.

Momo and Ryoma are nothing like WoK lol. WoK were a genuine pair it seems according to Chitose and from the link I showed you, they must have been a genuine pair as they were compared with GP, Shishido/Ootori and Inui/Yanagi.
So they must have been a pair in Middle School.

If you can suggests that Tachibana and Chitose can seals Momoshiro can hitting BJK, I can do the same here. Abare Dame actually require even more of a position to hit back. And I doubt 1st stringer will have a hard time sealing off 3rd court pair tech. Taira/Hara is different from Momoshiro/Kenya. Their base stat is up there, because they trash Momoshiro and Kenya pretty nicely before BJK. Even if Taira Hara wouldn't be in 1st stringer if Oni, Irie, And Tokugawa tooks their place, they will still be in 1st court. And 1st court is still higher than 3rd court.

Personally I think it was implied that Taira/Hara were only a 1st Court level pair due to Bakyuun.
Indeed their technique was up there since yes, they trashed and shat on Momo and Kenya effortlessly.
And yeah, Abare Dama probably does require more complicated positioning.

I'll also like to remind you that 11-20 ranking not being based on player's power is purely fan speculation. Looking at no 1 player being the strongest in the camp, the manga actually is suggesting that the ranking IS based on the player skill.

Wrong.
Use common sense. Why would No.18 & 19 be Doubles but No.20 is Singles?
Why would No.20, No,17, No.14 and No.11 be singles?
Are the Mutsu's better Singles players than Mitsuya then?
Is Ban a better player than Hakamada?
None of that can be confirmed, where as in the G10 No.s 1-6 seems to be Singles and No.s7-10 is Doubles which makes perfect sense where the strongest play Singles and the ones weaker than them play Doubles.
No.s 1-10 in Strength seems legit.

But it makes no sense that it goes No.11, 12&13, 14, 15&16, 17, 18&19, 20.
Just look at that. Surely Date should be in Singles if he was the next best Singles player.
But he isn't. He is in Doubles. So far being in Doubles at 11-20 level is because you can't compete against the top Singles guys.
So I don't think its purely fan speculaton

Base stat takes you anywhere if it's high enough. For proof, looks at Mouri. He really doesn't look like he have any business being in G10. But he is, without the special tech.

I think Mitsuya would have crush both Taira AND Hara (well, in singles anyways). He's number 17. And the pair is 18 19. The question is that can Hara/Taira beat number 20? I think he can.

Yeah, but he stands out as the weakest in G10.
You think Hara can beat Akiba? Why? Based on what? Just a higher number?
Surely Hara would be in Singles if he was a better player. Its not like he was anything special in the Doubles pair.
That role could be filled by anybody.

that list from Konomi can't be interpreted so simply. You mean to tell me... Ban would have taken out Tooyama worse than Hakamada? LOL with what?

See what I mean? I don't think that list was that simple.

The more interesting question would have been would Mutsu lost to Mitsuya? That's a far more interesting question. But due to not knowing the Mutsu base stat, it's really hard to tell.

How is that a far more interesting question? Its only far more interesting to you.
We know that in Singles, Mutsu would wipe Washio and Suzuki. Boring.
In terms of Singles on 3rd Court, the best player was Yamato and then Nakagauchi.
And they were probably borderline 2nd Court.
Since Miyako, Matsu, Suzuki, Washio, Takei were Mid tier at best in Singles.

So Mutsu would have to have been Upper Mid at the minimum.

I still want to know why you think Ban can defeat Mitsuya and Hakamada.
And why Hara can beat Akiba.

[Hardy]

Fair enough. Momoshiro will be too much for Chitose full stop. Unless anybody else here can give evidence otherwise I agree with you now.
But Momoshiro couldn't even spam JK since it is a two-handed shot which requires positioning so it leaves many openings.
Unfortunately, Momo will be conceding several games until he gets the opportunity to KO Chitose.
Since whilst Chitose can spam Kamikakushi from whenever and wherever he wants, Momo cannot do the same with BJK as with JK.

Didn't Tachibana see JK when Momoshiro during the Regionals Finals? and Nationals Semifinals?
Also, remember that BJK visually in both manga and anime looks completely different to BJK.

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So Tachibana will know immediately that its a different impact.
As for Tachibana I'm not entirely moved on whether Momo will beat him.



But he does have it. Mind you, without Beast Aura, Tachibana get fodder by Kirihaya. Earning a new tech earn you a new tier. I can't imagine taking BJK constantly not be taxing for Tachibana at all. JK crush Oshitari because he's been taking it the entire match. And we're talking about BJK here, which impact is greatly increased. I don't see player of Tachibana caiber taking it for the entire match without hand numbing side effects. Also, if we expand it to best of 3 match like the way 1st stringer right now, it means that Chitose have to avoid touching BJK for 10 game (6-0 first game, and 4-0 in second set) for WoK to wins all in all. And that also means Tachibana have to be able to take BJK with no damage at all for the entirety of however game that lasts. I think that's quite a far fetch assumption.

Your point on Momoshiro and Oni is fair.

On the data pair, they have been known as unbeatable pair before they break up. WoK, on the other hand, got their fame from being good as a player and not being a pair. It's different. That page is just saying that from the point where 3rd court beats them, they have been practicing together. as a pair It doesn't show form their past as WoK. I'll admit they are best friends. But that doesn't translate to double pair. Momoshiro And Echizen are good friends. It even mention it. See how well they play together? It's not correlated.



If you can suggests that Tachibana and Chitose can seals Momoshiro can hitting BJK, I can do the same here. Abare Dame actually require even more of a position to hit back. And I doubt 1st stringer will have a hard time sealing off 3rd court pair tech. Taira/Hara is different from Momoshiro/Kenya. Their base stat is up there, because they trash Momoshiro and Kenya pretty nicely before BJK. Even if Taira Hara wouldn't be in 1st stringer if Oni, Irie, And Tokugawa tooks their place, they will still be in 1st court. And 1st court is still higher than 3rd court.

I'll also like to remind you that 11-20 ranking not being based on player's power is purely fan speculation. Looking at no 1 player being the strongest in the camp, the manga actually is suggesting that the ranking IS based on the player skill.

Base stat takes you anywhere if it's high enough. For proof, looks at Mouri. He really doesn't look like he have any business being in G10. But he is, without the special tech.

I think Mitsuya would have crush both Taira AND Hara (well, in singles anyways). He's number 17. And the pair is 18 19. The question is that can Hara/Taira beat number 20? I think he can.

The more interesting question would have been would Mutsu lost to Mitsuya? That's a far more interesting question. But due to not knowing the Mutsu base stat, it's really hard to tell.

Fix your post please, I see too many afros in your image