Kumo: Why Kidnap Girls?

[Alterno]

And what does that have to do with her trying to escape? She would have never tried she would have been overcome by fear of losing her entire family and being trapped in a foriegn village.

And let's not BS here, shes a weak shinobi when compared to others.

What would she have done wihen captured? If she was overpowered by 3 Jounin there was no way she'd escape an entire village of ninja so lets be serious.

And why would they let Minato escape with her? In all likelyhood he killed them all and took her and ran away. He is the greatest ninja Konoha ever produced so I don't see why he wouldn't be capable.

You are so, full of it (BS) and sorry for answering you like this, but in this case you very well deserve it. You assume that she is weak for being capture by 3 shinobi from Kumo as seen in the picture and you assume that Minato even killed them without even sweating or any evidence in his outfit, omg.

Seriously, not even Naruto who have already surpassed Minato since very long, have escaped a battle without injuries or sign of battle. Also the picture don't show Kushina being in Kumogakure, it shows Kushina captured by 3 shinobi from Kumogakure.

You are saying she is weaker than other shinobi/kunoichi when you don't have evidence to prove it or otherwise, neither do I and neither I try to. Also you assume Minato as kid was strong or as fast he was before dying, let me correct it, "As people say he was", but there's not really evidence of it, not even evidence of him being strong, there's only evidence of him being a genius.

So the next time you decide what is BS or not, try to back up it with facts, not with fan made theories.


<hr>

This whole thread is based on a wrong premise. We know of two separate cases, who knows if Kumo didn't kidnap boys and girls? In fact, the two cases we know of are very special:

- The Hyuuga main family had only girls as offspring;
- Kushina was "special".

Perhaps Kumo would've rather getting a boy in both cases but he had to settle with girls. Who knows.

Well, we don't know if Kumo kidnapped boys, but I don't think is based in a wrong premise, since is based in something that can bee seen... we can't talk about Kumo kidnapping boys, because there's not evidence of them doing such thing, however there's evidence of them kidnapping girls, in 2 different times.

It's said that the ability is sealed, not specifically the eyes (the eyes give the ability, but themselves come from the DNA). So it can be the whole corpse.
But the rest seems fine.

We have seen so far, Shodaime cells being used by Danzou and Tenzou (Yamato), maybe is possible that they were after her cells, instead of just her chakra, but still the op came with a valid theory.

[$nipe]

Well, we don't know if Kumo kidnapped boys, but I don't think is based in a wrong premise, since is based in something that can bee seen... we can't talk about Kumo kidnapping boys, because there's not evidence of them doing such thing, however there's evidence of them kidnapping girls, in 2 different times.

But it's only two of them, and both are special cases, as I've noted. It's inconclusive evidence, no matter how you put it. It's a wrong premise, because:

1. Two girls is not equal to all girls.

2. The kidnapping of girls from girl-only families is no proof that they would have prefered girls over boys.

The right subject for this thread would have to be, at most, Kumo: Why Kidnap Two Girls?

[Alterno]

But it's only two of them, and both are special cases, as I've noted. It's inconclusive evidence, no matter how you put it. It's a wrong premise, because:

1. Two girls is not equal to all girls.

How many girls have been seen kidnapped in the manga by Kumo?

2 (Two)

2. The kidnapping of girls from girl-only families is no proof that they would have prefered girls over boys.

I didn't say they preferred girls over boys, but maybe they do prefer kidnapping girls.

The right subject for this thread would have to be, at most, Kumo: Why Kidnap Two Girls?

The original poster don't really need to change the thread name because it remain correct to what we have seen in the story, Kumo have been seen kidnapping girls in the manga, Hinata and Kushina, he came with a valid theory taking the mangas as supporting material.

I can't say what I have not seen to support a theory or as base of a discussion, well I could but it would be solid as ice cream.

[Delbi]

You are so, full of it (BS) and sorry for answering you like this, but in this case you very well deserve it. You assume that she is weak for being capture by 3 shinobi from Kumo as seen in the picture and you assume that Minato even killed them without even sweating or any evidence in his outfit, omg.

Seriously, not even Naruto who have already surpassed Minato since very long, have escaped a battle without injuries or sign of battle. Also the picture don't show Kushina being in Kumogakure, it shows Kushina captured by 3 shinobi from Kumogakure.

You are saying she is weaker than other shinobi/kunoichi when you don't have evidence to prove it or otherwise, neither do I and neither I try to. Also you assume Minato as kid was strong or as fast he was before dying, let me correct it, "As people say he was", but there's not really evidence of it, not even evidence of him being strong, there's only evidence of him being a genius.

So the next time you decide what is BS or not, try to back up it with facts, not with fan made theories.

Naruto still isn't the shinobi his father once was. Minato killed 50 shinobi with little effort on his part without so much as a scratch. Sasuke defeated 1000 shinobi without breaking a sweat.

If you honestly don't think that Minato could defeat 3 enemy jounin with little effort that's up to you, but given the fact he was the best shinobi Konoha ever produced, I think he could certainly do it. How else was he going to get Kushina back? Ask nicely? You'd have to be naive to think he didn't just kill them and take her back.

As for there not being evidence of Minato being strong, well your gonna have egg on your face buddy. The new fanbook confirms that he fought against both the Fox and Madara before attempting to seal it the Kyuubi, so obviously he's incredibly strong.

As far as Hinata being weak, she'd never proved herself to be strong, and was considered a let down by her father who considered her sister, 5 years her junior, more powerful than her. What the hell was she going to do when she was 3 years old with no shinobi training? She would have grown up a weakling not knowing how to even use her Kekkai Genkai.

And I didn't once say Kushina was weak, only that if she couldn't escape three ninja by herself she'd be fucked in a village full of them.

[Alterno]

Naruto still isn't the shinobi his father once was. Minato killed 50 shinobi with little effort on his part without so much as a scratch. Sasuke defeated 1000 shinobi without breaking a sweat.

If you honestly don't think that Minato could defeat 3 enemy jounin with little effort that's up to you, but given the fact he was the best shinobi Konoha ever produced, I think he could certainly do it. How else was he going to get Kushina back? Ask nicely? You'd have to be naive to think he didn't just kill them and take her back.

So Minato was a strong as child as he was in his adulthood in Kakashi Gaiden, is that what you say? and even there he was sweating and with clear signs of battle.

And the answer to your question, No, I don't think that Minato as child could be as strong he was in his adulthood (Kakashi Gaiden).

As for there not being evidence of Minato being strong, well your gonna have egg on your face buddy. The new fanbook confirms that he fought against both the Fox and Madara before attempting to seal it the Kyuubi, so obviously he's incredibly strong.

Didn't madara call himself a shell of his former self?, second the first fan book Masashi Kishimoto is credited as author, but this one just say weekly shounen jump, also the current translation is not accredited by anyone so far...

This what the manga shows:

He didn't even had the most remote idea, of who the man behind the mask was, neither seems like he fought against him at all, he never speaks in that way about him, this is what I call fighting Madara + Kyuubi, and is known that he won:

As far as Hinata being weak, she'd never proved herself to be strong, and was considered a let down by her father who considered her sister, 5 years her junior, more powerful than her. What the hell was she going to do when she was 3 years old with no shinobi training? She would have grown up a weakling not knowing how to even use her Kekkai Genkai.

Naruto was considered the worst of his class, the weaker link as considered by Sasuke and ended saving people (including Sasuke), from the beginning of the manga, also saved Kakashi from Zabuza water prison.

Funny thing, coming from the man who admitted being weaker than his little 5 minutes brother.

Anyway, I'm going to end my comment about Hinata being weaker or stronger, because while I admit that I could use some facts and stuff writen by Kishimoto, that won't hide that I could be really biased when we talka about her, not matter how objetive I want to be.

And I didn't once say Kushina was weak, only that if she couldn't escape three ninja by herself she'd be fucked in a village full of them.

About Kushina, you did say she was weak and in the terms below I answered you.

And what does that have to do with her trying to escape? She would have never tried she would have been overcome by fear of losing her entire family and being trapped in a foriegn village.

And let's not BS here, shes a weak shinobi when compared to others.

[Leecher]

]Didn't madara call himself a shell of his former self?, second the first fan book Masashi Kishimoto is credited as author, but this one just say weekly shounen jump, also the current translation is not accredited by anyone so far...[

Small FYI...Itachi called Madara a shell of his former self. It can probably be assumed that he doesn't have full EMS powers anymore (I assume that considering he was after Shisui's eye).

As to the OP - To bring up a subject so controversial as OMG...HERE IT COMES - RAPE!!! in the Naruto manga is just such! a ssssttttrrreeetttcchhhh. I believe the second post in this thread brought up the hear all end all counter-point to the statement. Little boys can get raped just as easily, you might need a little more manipulation.

However, as to why Kumogakure kidnapped these two little innocent female ninja's probably exceeds beyond 'extending KG's to members of their village'. Perhaps it's simple espionage guerrilla tactics, which frankly is the 'ninja way' as common knowledge has come to know it. It's only in this manga that ninja's throw bombs at one another and see who's is bigger.

Simply put, in terms of Kishi has given us - That since the start of the 5 village, 5 country system- none of the villages liked each other. So like true ninja's they set squads out on missions to steal certain KG's from one village in order to weaken it.

To a greater point, why was it Kushina and Hinata - it seems that kunoichi in this manga are incredibly weaker to their male counterparts. Perhaps kishi is a sexist (brought up in another thread!). To elaborate beyond this point is seriously stretching out the plot. It's like saying their are only two jinchurikki left alive because their villages shunned them and abandoned them. Is this a false statement? No, I can't be proven false. Is it likely? No...they got destroyed by Akatsuki members is the likeliest answer given what we've seen so far in the manga.

So enough of this rape BS. It puts everyone on edge.

[jdw]

Didn't madara call himself a shell of his former self?

Small FYI...Itachi called Madara a shell of his former self.

[Leecher]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/11/


straw man

[Kusachu]

Kidnap them young, keep them secluded, raise them to believe they are a part of your tribe, then use them as your baby factory. In the case of Kushina, she was a bit older, but that wouldn't change much since they can just rape her and keep confined and unable to kill herself. Or they could have just treated her really well and coerced her into going along with them...if you wanted to look at it in a more fluffy way.

Not saying this is the intent of the author, just saying that despicable people do despicable things for their own gain and generally people know that, so when a situation like this arises, some people will just end up at the lowest common denominator.

Jdw is right though, they could also very easily kidnap a male and have him breed with women, but so far that hasn't been shown in the case of Kumo. So far we have only seen two cases of Kumo kidnapping special females, but to me that is a lot in a story of this scope with so much else going on.

I just question why the Kumo kidnapping thing has been used twice at all. It could have been any other village. Rock is another ruthless village, we know that, so it could have easily been them instead of Kumo. I mean, if I wanted to get really offensive about it I could infer that Kumo, the only village that has been shown to have people with dark skin, kidnaps females with special abilities, the same way people makes jokes about Orochimaru who, widely received as a pedophile, kidnaps young boys. Yeah, Orochimaru also kidnaps young girls too, but male pedophiles can be interested in girls too.

Not that I think any of those scenarios is the case, just that those are ideas that I have drawn from the information I have been given.

Heck, maybe it's me who's the jaded asshole and the whole thing is just innocent storytelling that just happens to be coincidentally wrought with questionable subject matter. Heck, that opens up a debate on whether that subject matter is even questionable at all no matter what it implies. Many races on Earth are mixed through war after all. Even back in ancient myths the women of the losing nations were plundered as spoils of war, the children of the losing side would be murdered to prevent future retaliation, and the women would produce the children of the victors.

I sort of think that, if Kumo IS (was) kidnapping (trying to kidnap) females to make their military force stronger, it is a pretty ingenious plot device, and one that aligns well with "reality" no matter how despicable it is. So, is it the case at all, and if it is, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

This is certainly a multifaceted discussion.

EDIT: But then, one could argue that since Orochimaru was known to kidnap children, kidnapping is a prominent theme of the story and therefor by mentioning it again in the case of Kumo it is just following the commonality of the story. But I tend to lean away from that idea in general because, if that's the case then it's tired and something fresh very easily could have been done instead of redoing the same type of scenario over and over again.

Rock Ninja kidnapped Rin in KG, so that supports the females = weak/healers angle, and also the Rock being ruthless angle and therefore why couldn't Rock have been the village to kidnap Kushina? Heck, I even think if it would have been Rock to kidnap Kushina it would have had more tie-in with the Minato vs. Rock ninja stuff that we saw in KG.

As it is, all we have is that Kumo has kidnapped two little girls in the course of the story, and because they have special abilities that are desired by their village which is lead by the Raikage and his family.

Any other speculations as to the deeper implications are just that, but I wonder why it is even the case that there is reason to speculate in the first place. Is it not the responsibility of the author to have control over the message that can be inferred by his content? Is he just writing what comes to mind with no thought as to the way his vision is going to be interpreted?

Speaking from the perspective of an artist, I find it hard to imagine that the author does not think at all about his message. His writing proves that an obsessive amount of detail goes into his work, so, has he even realized that people might interpret his work in such ways?

The lowest common denominator is in the mind of the author, which none of can claim to know. We can only work with what he gives us.

[LDBoblo]

Seems to be a lot of projection around here.

How often have the topics of sex and rape been actively brought up in the manga? I can't recall any. Best we have is "perverts" like Kakashi and Jiraiya which epitomize the Japanese traditional voyeur (OK, Jiraiya was a little more aggressive than that, but not much). Rape I do not think is ever an active issue.

Characters in a manga do not necessarily do things the way humans in the real world do. Having a cold and dispassionate disregard for life does not necessarily have any relationship to sexuality the way it might in real-world warfare. To assume so, when the manga does not explicitly demonstrate it, is highly presumptuous.

I suspect they kidnap girls because it's simpler. I suspect they keep them alive because whatever nefarious purposes they may put the kidnapped people to are made simpler when the subjects are alive. Kumo wanted the dead body of a Hyuuga man. It's possible then that the Kumogakure women are necrophiliacs. Or it's possible they wanted the body to experiment on, and they didn't manage to get the living sample (Hinata) they wanted, so a dead body which could be politically muscled away from Konoha was the next best thing.

There are plenty of roads Kishi could take with this, and it's very unlikely that sexual impropriety is the one he's going to take, considering his track record with portraying sex in the manga.

And to address another person's comments about interpretation of the story's elements, I think Kishimoto is an adult (and a man in modern Japan), and understands what his story's limits are, and he can play with some innuendo within that space. This is common in a lot of literature. Readers adhere to no such boundaries, and frequently draw from reality (or their own cynical, ignorant version of it anyway) to answer ambiguities that the author leaves behind him. Given that even children's manga are not all rainbows and sunshine, Western audiences in particular tend to draw out extremes, based on said subjective realities, to resolve the unresolved. The more limited the reader, the less they respect the implicit boundaries of the literature, and the more they rely on their reality.

[Delbi]

About Kushina, you did say she was weak and in the terms below I answered you.

Dude, do me a favor, learn to read what I wrote, because I didn't once say Kushina was weak. I responded to you about Hinata being weak, seriously go back and re-read because now your just putting words in my mouth and I'd appreciate if you don't paraphrase things and make it seem like I said something I didn't.

Here's what I said in response to your point about HINATA.

Hinata have / had the same issues of Chouji, they didn't have self confidence. Is different from actually being week, I can't call weak someone who can kill me by hitting my internal organs. Check the comments of Kishimoto about Hinata, I hope by the end of the manga his comments about her make sense.

And what does that have to do with her trying to escape? She would have never tried she would have been overcome by fear of losing her entire family and being trapped in a foriegn village.

And let's not BS here, shes a weak shinobi when compared to others.

Afterwards all I said was that if Kushina got captured by three ninja she had no hope of escaping an entire village of ninja because she obviously wasn't strong enought to fight off her captures.

[kthy0056]

The Hyuuga's aren't unbeatable no ninja's are.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're not powerful. In fact, by that time, Kishimoto made insinuations that Sharingan was a derivation of Byakugan and that the Hyuuga were actually more powerful. Even without this statement, you can't deny that the Hyuuga is one of the most powerful clan in Konoha, which was also the most powerful shinobi village.

Neji, for what it's worth, in his two Main fights in Part 1 was defeated and nearly killed despite being the genius of the clan.

True, but we're talking about a Jinchuuriki and one of the sound four - powerful enough and trusted by Orochimaru with a seal, and the barrier in his fight against Sarutobi. We're not talking about anything of genin/chunnin level when mentioning the spider guy, or any of the sound 4 for that matter.

So yes, if that shinobi was of say, someone like Asuma's caliber, I'd think he could kill most of the memebers of the Hyuuga clan and bring the body back to Kumo.

Neji said that Hinata's father quickly took care of him, showing his lack of battle prowess.
And considering how most of Hyuuga see behind their backs, making assassination useless, and a full-fledged fight would bring up noise.
Even if he would have been powerful enough to bring down of the Hyuugas, why bother? Why killing a potentially dangerous adult when you can easily steal a young child?

[Delbi]

Seems to be a lot of projection around here.

How often have the topics of sex and rape been actively brought up in the manga? I can't recall any. Best we have is "perverts" like Kakashi and Jiraiya which epitomize the Japanese traditional voyeur (OK, Jiraiya was a little more aggressive than that, but not much). Rape I do not think is ever an active issue.

Characters in a manga do not necessarily do things the way humans in the real world do. Having a cold and dispassionate disregard for life does not necessarily have any relationship to sexuality the way it might in real-world warfare. To assume so, when the manga does not explicitly demonstrate it, is highly presumptuous.

I suspect they kidnap girls because it's simpler. I suspect they keep them alive because whatever nefarious purposes they may put the kidnapped people to are made simpler when the subjects are alive. Kumo wanted the dead body of a Hyuuga man. It's possible then that the Kumogakure women are necrophiliacs. Or it's possible they wanted the body to experiment on, and they didn't manage to get the living sample (Hinata) they wanted, so a dead body which could be politically muscled away from Konoha was the next best thing.

There are plenty of roads Kishi could take with this, and it's very unlikely that sexual impropriety is the one he's going to take, considering his track record with portraying sex in the manga.

And to address another person's comments about interpretation of the story's elements, I think Kishimoto is an adult (and a man in modern Japan), and understands what his story's limits are, and he can play with some innuendo within that space. This is common in a lot of literature. Readers adhere to no such boundaries, and frequently draw from reality (or their own cynical, ignorant version of it anyway) to answer ambiguities that the author leaves behind him. Given that even children's manga are not all rainbows and sunshine, Western audiences in particular tend to draw out extremes, based on said subjective realities, to resolve the unresolved. The more limited the reader, the less they respect the implicit boundaries of the literature, and the more they rely on their reality.

Much of what you are saying would make sense if we were talking about rape in terms of it being a crime of passion. In this instance however, that is not what we are talking about.

Kishi has brought about the idea of genetic experimentation, body snatching, and the exchange of Doujutsu to gain power. Why not selective breeding?

The idea of the Raikage, or Bee, or any other Kumo ninja raping Kushina and Hinata has nothing to do with them gaining satisfaction from the act. It has to do with Kumo gaining power. We already know they are a power hungry village, so the most logical conclusion of Hinata and Kushina being kidnapped would be becasue they were to be used for selective breeding.

Now, do they need to be raped? No, not neccessarily. They could have been articficially inseminated. However, that technology doesn't seem to exist in Naruto's world, and at best, if it did, it would exist in Konoha, who are the leaders of the world when it comes to medicine.

Could they have been used for their genes? Possibly, but again, Orochimaru who was the best at gene experimentation had little success doing so.

What about their respective abilities, could they have been physically ripped out? Hinata's eyes could have yes, but what about Kushina's chakra? How do you go about doing that?

As for the disreguard for human life, this manga has made it a point to show how rutheless ninja are. Gaara's father sacraficed his wife's life to create a jinchuriki. The Raikage's father killed countless of his own ninja in an effor to to create a jinchuriki. Itachi killed his own parents for peace. Orochimaru was willing to kill 3 children to put them out of their misery. The list goes on and on.

So, is it out of the realm of possibilities that the Kumo ninja would be willing to rape a girl so they could get her to breed powerful ninja? I don't see why not, especially when it's not an act of passion like rape usually would be. It would be an act of science much more than anything even though it would be cruel.

[jdw]

Imo, there is really nothing in the manga to even suggest rape. It would be different if Kishi added some language that at least pushed in that direction, but there is nothing I can recall.

[vintagemistakes]

Guys, lets try to get away from the discussing rape as a reason why ninjas in Naruto kidnap other ninjas. The story has never hinted at it and to be quite honest, its a very sensitive topic that would be best not discussed here. Further discussion of rape or other crude/degrading reasons will not be tolerated. Thanks.

---

After further deliberation I have decided to close this thread. The topic of kidnapping and the sexual themes that were brought up in this thread are inappropriate and unnecessary.