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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

  1. #751
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    What i don't understand is why the aburame and hyuuga ninja weren't killed. Then sasori could've used their corpses as human puppets.
    Last edited by ashher; November 28, 2010 at 12:06 AM.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    The only interesting thing about Kakuzu was the experience. I want to see how the world was during Hashirama's era, and how Kakuzu fought and lost to Hashirama before learning the kinjutsu.

    Though, Kakuzu was kinda cool with all four or five hearts. I liked seeing elemental combo attacks.

  3. #753
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Melmoth View Post
    I'm getting along with all you say, nevertheless me thinks that Sasuke wouldn't have turned so strong if he had stayed at the leaf... I mean, the root of the peace of Konoha is Uchiha blood, they lied to him and knowing Danzô we know for sure that the Uchiha Massacre wasn't the better option, this meaning that he wouldn't have found true love on Konoha. Sasuke is somehow to me a "destined child" that was sent to a cursed world filled with insincerity in order to crush this shinobi idea that one human being life is nothing, that killing a whole clan is nothing when you preserve the safety of one village. It's just like Kabuto that plays with souls etc, and it isn't a matter of "pardon", when one is hungry you cannot make him eat the word "bread". This Shinobi world needs a revolution not just a re-evaluation, so that means each people needs to radically change, and i think this war is a great set-up to shows that.
    You don't know that..Naruto stayed and look at him now. Kakashi stayed and still got the MS...the point is if Sasuke had taken the same stance as Naruto he would have trained hard to defeat AK and could have gotten just as strong....
    Focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern
    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

  4. #754
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    What i don't understand is why the aburame and hyuuga ninja weren't killed. Then sasori could've used their corpses as human puppets.
    It probably needs time to make such puppets...when Sasori described it, he said that it was an entire process of taking out the insides, making the shell, then make the chakra core, insert weapons...honestly I think Kishimoto conveniently placed Sasori in this ambush squad...not letting him having time to prepare for battle...and even so Sasori made great use of his skills, and was a great combo with Deidara...despite the result, I was very impressed by the whole fight

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  6. #755
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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by toussaintac View Post
    I just explained why he would be worse. He's already dead. Hearts wouldn't give him extra lives since his soul is the target. I'd say he'd be pretty much the same as a zombie because he's a zombie, but he has one soul and not 5 hearts. That's one target. He's worse off in that department. He should be able to use hearts for jutsu, though, but he's still not better off than his live counterpart for previously stated reasons.
    even in the times when he was not dead , he still had one soul and it could be targeted pretty much the same way an edo tensei summon can be targeted now

    so ; i agree in saying that being a zombie works for kakuzu the best . he used to need hearts for survival but now he does not ..

  7. #756
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Melmoth's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    You don't know that..Naruto stayed and look at him now. Kakashi stayed and still got the MS...the point is if Sasuke had taken the same stance as Naruto he would have trained hard to defeat AK and could have gotten just as strong....
    I don't think we can compare people like that. Naruto hold a demon in his stomach, thus allowing him to meet alikes of Jiraya/the toads and Killerbee (Kakashi, the sole ninja able to teach Sasuke in Konoha is nowhere near their level), his parents were too cool for words, and as he was left alone from the very start he never had to deal with the same kind of struggle Sasuke met, he couldn't care less about his past, he always had his eyes opened and that is why he rebelled against the harsh traitment he recieved from the leaf people and why he saw through the feelings of Iruka. Naruto is a very sensitive character, his intelligence doesn't come from his knowledge but is intuition, i mean he wept in loneliness until he couldn't weep no more, he suffered but he set about to free himself from everything that bound him, till in the end he encountered true love with Iruka, thus allowing him to enter into the sea of liberation, and he established that liberation within himself (no one learned him his nindo!), out of the agonising solitude there emerged a shining Naruto. Sasuke's loneliness is very superficial, he lost his family, but he stayed clinging to his past, or i'd rather say his past stayed clinging to him as everyone lied to him. I don't think one can become strong if his mind isn't clear, in a way or another...
    Last edited by Melmoth; November 30, 2010 at 12:47 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    You don't know that..Naruto stayed and look at him now. Kakashi stayed and still got the MS...the point is if Sasuke had taken the same stance as Naruto he would have trained hard to defeat AK and could have gotten just as strong....
    None of Naruto's current strength was achieved in Konoha. Naruto left to go train with the toads and then left again to train with Kirabi. If either of them had stuck to the village, They wouldn't have the strength they have now. And while MS gave Kakashi a sweet new technique, It didn't actually make him any stronger in the same sense.

  9. #758
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity llamapie's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    None of Naruto's current strength was achieved in Konoha. Naruto left to go train with the toads and then left again to train with Kirabi. If either of them had stuck to the village, They wouldn't have the strength they have now. And while MS gave Kakashi a sweet new technique, It didn't actually make him any stronger in the same sense.
    Thats splitting hairs. Part of getting stronger in this story is from experience and travels. As evidenced by Jiraiya, the God of Vagabonds. Anyways Kishi is setting up Naruto to have ties in every village, he harbors no ill will towards anyone and his goals are now far more reaching than just becoming Hokage.
    Give the best manga of all time some attention!

    # of "Miura will die before Berserk is finished" comments(since Nov. 1st 2008): 92

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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    Thats splitting hairs. Part of getting stronger in this story is from experience and travels. As evidenced by Jiraiya, the God of Vagabonds. Anyways Kishi is setting up Naruto to have ties in every village, he harbors no ill will towards anyone and his goals are now far more reaching than just becoming Hokage.
    It's not splitting hairs at all, Because as far as we've seen the majority of ninjas do not go off to other places to gain new powers. And the idea of Naruto going off to the Toad Mountain to train wasn't his idea or anyone's in Konoha. It was due to Pa Toad wanting Naruto to actually stand a better chance at beating Pain. And before the whole Fourth War, Konoha and Kumo's relationship wasn't all that great, And it would have been unlikely that Konoha would have let Naruto go off to another village to do anything, Much less attempt to master the Kyuubi.

    The fact remains that neither Naruto or Sasuke could have attained their current powers simply by staying in Konoha. Sure they probably would have gotten stronger eventually, But nowhere near their current level and nowhere near as fast. Even the Sennins weren't as strong as those two are now when they were at the same ages.

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    Re: Naruto 518 Discussion / 519 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Wouldn't that only work if the person actually has people that they care about, Instead of being depressing orphans all alone in the world? And judging from the number of powerful ninjas that don't give a damn about anyone but themselves yet are considerably powerful...

    But seriously, That philosophy has really only worked for Naruto. He's the only person that has been able to draw on greater power to protect those they care about and achieve a win. Other ninjas talk about it, But none so far have actually achieved a win through it. So while it sounds nice and pretty, There's not many reason for those seeking real power to follow it.
    Not true at all, in my view. The Third Hokage, accomplishing what he did against Orochimaru, was greatly spurred on by a desire to protect Konoha and everyone inside of it.

    It isn't always just about winning, not at all. It's about the simple fact that you achieve greater power, real power, in those moments when you wish to fight for someone or something other than yourself. Also, we should probably never forget that what appears as if it's going to be one of Sasuke's absolute strongest areas, an area in which no Uchiha before him will be an equal, the control he possesses over the black flames of Amaterasu, is a power he first displayed in an effort to protect his team.

    He first awakened Amaterasu after what? A desire to protect those who are important to him, he even reflected back on Team 7.

    Spoiler show


    He first showcased the power to manipulate Amaterasu's flames under what circumstance? A circumstance in which protecting an ally was a top priority for him.

    Spoiler show


    I haven't said that a ninja can't be considerably powerful while not giving a damn about anyone but themselves, but the true power of a shinobi emerges in this manga when they desire to protect those important to them, and for one of Sasuke's most significant new powers, his control over Amaterasu's black flames, his first "real" firing of Amaterasu's black flames, and then his manipulating of those flames came from an effort to protect his team. I'm not surprised that his apparently completed Susanoo appears to make use of Amaterasu's flames too.

    Ninjas can be strong while being completely wrongheaded, nobody said they can't be, but this manga always gives off a message that, if they had their heads in the right place, they could have been even stronger. That's basically exactly what Kankurou said to Sasori in this most recent chapter.

    Even with his Susanoo display at the Kage Summit, he had not completed it further and gained more power until this moment.

    He was pushed further by the love he has for his brother, and knowing how much his brother loved him, it pushed him to achieve even greater power.

    Spoiler show


    Don't think for a second that Nagato didn't become significantly stronger, eventually turning into Pain, as a direct result of the love he had for those he had lost, like Yahiko for example. As strong as Pain had become, his whole path in life was influenced on his love for his friend Yahiko. However, his ideology had become twisted. Pain was an example of how powerful Nagato could become, and it was definitely influenced on the love of a friend, but if he had his heart in the right place, he could have been even stronger.

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  14. #761
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Not true at all, in my view. The Third Hokage, accomplishing what he did against Orochimaru, was greatly spurred on by a desire to protect Konoha and everyone inside of it.
    Not to belittle Sarutobi's accomplishment, But all he succeeded in doing was forcing Orochimaru to retreat and sped up his plans concerning Sasuke. Sealing his arms only affect Orochimaru for a while and was simply undone once Orochimaru hopped into another body. There was nothing preventing Orochimaru from attempting another invasion had he wished it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    It isn't always just about winning, not at all. It's about the simple fact that you achieve greater power, real power, in those moments when you wish to fight for someone or something other than yourself. Also, we should probably never forget that what appears as if it's going to be one of Sasuke's absolute strongest areas, an area in which no Uchiha before him will be an equal, the control he possesses over the black flames of Amaterasu, is a power he first displayed in an effort to protect his team.
    It may not always be about winning, But that's the most important part. Winning guarantees that the threat will no longer be a threat most of the times. The majority of people who "achieve great power fighting for someone else" may be able to delay or hold off a threat for a little while, But they never actually eliminate said threat. The threat continues to exist and it's really only through luck that the threat is taken care of.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    He first awakened Amaterasu after what? A desire to protect those who are important to him, he even reflected back on Team 7.

    Spoiler show


    He first showcased the power to manipulate Amaterasu's flames under what circumstance? A circumstance in which protecting an ally was a top priority for him.

    Spoiler show


    I haven't said that a ninja can't be considerably powerful while not giving a damn about anyone but themselves, but the true power of a shinobi emerges in this manga when they desire to protect those important to them, and for one of Sasuke's most significant new powers, his control over Amaterasu's black flames, his first "real" firing of Amaterasu's black flames, and then his manipulating of those flames came from an effort to protect his team. I'm not surprised that his apparently completed Susanoo appears to make use of Amaterasu's flames too.
    While it's true that Sasuke finally used Amaterasu in an attempted to help his team, He already possessed MS and had the ability to use Amaterasu and turn off the flames, From what we have seen. It was simply something he had never had a chance to use before that point. So it would have been quite possible that he could have done the same even had he not had the desire to save Team Taka.

    Also, I would point out that Sasuke didn't show the ability to manipulate Amaterasu's flames until the Kage Summit, At the point that he began his dark descent and disregard for the lives of others including his teammates.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Ninjas can be strong while being completely wrongheaded, nobody said they can't be, but this manga always gives off a message that, if they had their heads in the right place, they could have been even stronger. That's basically exactly what Kankurou said to Sasori in this most recent chapter.
    Yeah it has been said and shown by several ninjas, But none of them have ever been able to achieve anything permanent from that philosophy apart from Naruto and maybe Sasuke vs Kirabi. They instead end up defeated/dead while the threat is still around.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Even with his Susanoo display at the Kage Summit, he had not completed it further and gained more power until this moment.

    He was pushed further by the love he has for his brother, and knowing how much his brother loved him, it pushed him to achieve even greater power.

    Spoiler show
    Sasuke drawing out more of Susanoo wasn't due to his love for his brother but instead his hatred towards Danzo and Konoha, As Madara states. Later on, Sasuke was able to draw out even more of Susanoo when he speaks with Kakashi about how Konoha has scorn and ridiculed the sacrifice Itachi made. It was Sasuke's growing hatred that enabled him to complete Susanoo, More so then the love of Itachi whose desire and hope Sasuke was basically ignoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Don't think for a second that Nagato didn't become significantly stronger, eventually turning into Pain, as a direct result of the love he had for those he had lost, like Yahiko for example. As strong as Pain had become, his whole path in life was influenced on his love for his friend Yahiko. However, his ideology had become twisted. Pain was an example of how powerful Nagato could become, and it was definitely influenced on the love of a friend, but if he had his heart in the right place, he could have been even stronger.
    I don't think his love for Yahiko had much significance after Yahiko died. It had more to do with Nagato's focus on his own pain and delusion of being a god then caring about Yahiko. It was those ideals that made him become Pain and rain his vengeance on Hanzou and all those connected to him and ally with Akatsuki. The most he showed of his past friendship was making Yahiko his main body, Though he didn't even react to Jiraiya speaking about it or Naruto destroying it.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Not to belittle Sarutobi's accomplishment, But all he succeeded in doing was forcing Orochimaru to retreat and sped up his plans concerning Sasuke. Sealing his arms only affect Orochimaru for a while and was simply undone once Orochimaru hopped into another body. There was nothing preventing Orochimaru from attempting another invasion had he wished it.
    He did, however, greatly impede Orochimaru's current plans, and entirely turned around a battle that was initially going completely in Orochimaru's favor. He robbed Orochimaru of his pride, his reason for living, all his ninjutsu. Sure, Orochimaru got them back at a later date by going into a different body, but it still doesn't change the fact of how badly Sarutobi screwed Orochimaru at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It may not always be about winning, But that's the most important part. Winning guarantees that the threat will no longer be a threat most of the times. The majority of people who "achieve great power fighting for someone else" may be able to delay or hold off a threat for a little while, But they never actually eliminate said threat. The threat continues to exist and it's really only through luck that the threat is taken care of.
    Well a key difference between those who fight to protect others and those who fight only for themselves, is that a person who fights for others is more than willing to put their life on the line for the sake of others, hence the deaths of individuals like Minato or even Jiraiya, and to a lesser degree, since he was brought back to life, Kakashi's death during the Pain invasion.

    Delaying or holding off a threat is a major accomplishment, especially when it saves lives of those from the next generation, or leads to the later extermination of a threat. Were it not for the Third Hokage's curse, Sasuke would have already been in Orochimaru's hands, and he would also have made the transfer into Sasuke's body much sooner, instead of the body of the random shinobi he was forced to enter because Sasuke took too long to reach him.

    So, the delay that Sarutobi's actions had on Orochimaru's ambitions were significant and ultimately for the greater good. It also allowed for a new Hokag to return to a Konoha that was still standing and actually had some hope for the future, as opposed to the alternative if Orochimaru's plan succeeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    While it's true that Sasuke finally used Amaterasu in an attempted to help his team, He already possessed MS and had the ability to use Amaterasu and turn off the flames, From what we have seen. It was simply something he had never had a chance to use before that point. So it would have been quite possible that he could have done the same even had he not had the desire to save Team Taka.
    We can say he already had the ability to do those things, but the when he actually did these things is every bit as important, which is why the fact that he did these things first in an effort to save his teammates, and even reflected back on Team 7 in the process, is so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Also, I would point out that Sasuke didn't show the ability to manipulate Amaterasu's flames until the Kage Summit, At the point that he began his dark descent and disregard for the lives of others including his teammates.
    His deactivating the flames in the fashion that he did to save Karin was already an example of his displaying the ability to manipulate Amaterasu's flames, he just hadn't done so for combat purposes until the Kage Summit. The ability to manipulate Amaterasu is still an ability he first showcased in an effort to protect his allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Yeah it has been said and shown by several ninjas, But none of them have ever been able to achieve anything permanent from that philosophy apart from Naruto and maybe Sasuke vs Kirabi. They instead end up defeated/dead while the threat is still around.
    No way this is true. Minato's actions still reverberate throughout this entire manga. Almost everything that Naruto has done recently with regards to the Kyuubi's power, or even before, has all been because of his father's actions on that night 16 years ago. So, it can't be viewed that their actions were meaningless just because the threat is still around, or because the person died. The threat was delayed so long that a major opportunity was afforded to the shinobi world, as well as Konoha. Naruto's role in helping to protect Konoha during Orochimaru's attack was huge. In what way does Naruto's accomplishment against Pain, which led to the mass resurrection of hundreds, possibly thousands, inside Konoha happen without Minato and Jiraiya's actions?

    It doesn't.

    Kakashi may even have died on that night 16 years ago with no one around to stop the Kyuubi, forcing him to get involved as well, which would have possibly meant he wouldn't have ended up as Naruto's Sensei, meaning Naruto would never have learned the Fuuton RasenShuriken. Heck, Madara would likely still have control of the Kyuubi, which would have made him far closer to his ultimate goal.

    Jiraiya's sacrifice, for example, is significantly responsible for why Pain was defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke drawing out more of Susanoo wasn't due to his love for his brother but instead his hatred towards Danzo and Konoha, As Madara states. Later on, Sasuke was able to draw out even more of Susanoo when he speaks with Kakashi about how Konoha has scorn and ridiculed the sacrifice Itachi made. It was Sasuke's growing hatred that enabled him to complete Susanoo, More so then the love of Itachi whose desire and hope Sasuke was basically ignoring.
    Sasuke pulling out an even more complete Susanoo when he spoke with Kakashi was a result of two competing ideologies. He definitely saw some good left in him, but then he found a way to twist it around to suit his hatred. What we saw inside of him pretty much confirmed that there's some good left in him, and it isn't all hatred. Also, his love for Itachi, and Itachi's love for him absolutely influenced the appearance of that more powerful Susanoo against Danzou. All the flashbacks were about how much his loving brother sacrificed for not just the village, but also for him.

    It's like Nagato once said. It's because people love, that they are capable of hate. Sasuke's hatred is also greatly driven by his love, same as it was for Nagato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I don't think his love for Yahiko had much significance after Yahiko died. It had more to do with Nagato's focus on his own pain and delusion of being a god then caring about Yahiko. It was those ideals that made him become Pain and rain his vengeance on Hanzou and all those connected to him and ally with Akatsuki. The most he showed of his past friendship was making Yahiko his main body, Though he didn't even react to Jiraiya speaking about it or Naruto destroying it.
    The whole becoming a god thing was all Yahiko's dream, and exactly the types of things he use to say as a kid, that he'd become the god of this world. Nagato took on Yahiko's dream and simply put an extreme twist on it. The confirmation that Yahiko was truly significant in his whole way of thinking, was his labeling it as one of the great pains in his life that led him down the path that he chose to take.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    He did, however, greatly impede Orochimaru's current plans, and entirely turned around a battle that was initially going completely in Orochimaru's favor. He robbed Orochimaru of his pride, his reason for living, all his ninjutsu. Sure, Orochimaru got them back at a later date by going into a different body, but it still doesn't change the fact of how badly Sarutobi screwed Orochimaru at the time.
    Yeah Sarutobi did all of that, But the fact that it was later undone with no great trouble makes the entire thing moot. His desire to protect the future didn't aid in removing a terrible evil or preventing that evil from becoming a threat again. It was simply a temporary solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Well a key difference between those who fight to protect others and those who fight only for themselves, is that a person who fights for others is more than willing to put their life on the line for the sake of others, hence the deaths of individuals like Minato or even Jiraiya, and to a lesser degree, since he was brought back to life, Kakashi's death during the Pain invasion.

    Delaying or holding off a threat is a major accomplishment, especially when it saves lives of those from the next generation, or leads to the later extermination of a threat. Were it not for the Third Hokage's curse, Sasuke would have already been in Orochimaru's hands, and he would also have made the transfer into Sasuke's body much sooner, instead of the body of the random shinobi he was forced to enter because Sasuke took too long to reach him.

    So, the delay that Sarutobi's actions had on Orochimaru's ambitions were significant and ultimately for the greater good. It also allowed for a new Hokag to return to a Konoha that was still standing and actually had some hope for the future, as opposed to the alternative if Orochimaru's plan succeeded.
    Why do you say that? As far as he had been showing, Orochimaru was gonna want til Sasuke decided to come to him. He seem like he was gonna let Sasuke get stronger in Konoha before making the body switch. Especially since if he really wanted, There was nothing actually stopping him from taking Sasuke right then and there. It wasn't til Sarutobi sealed away his arms and Tsunade refused to heal him that Orochimaru was forced to think about moving to a new body. He had no choice but to get Sasuke and preform the switch, Even though Sasuke was nowhere near strong enough. It was simply random luck or misfortune that even retrieving Sasuke took too long and he had to settle for another body while he waited out the three year time limit. So Sarutobi's actions didn't really delay anything. It was more like Sarutobi pushed the time table up with his curse.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    We can say he already had the ability to do those things, but the when he actually did these things is every bit as important, which is why the fact that he did these things first in an effort to save his teammates, and even reflected back on Team 7 in the process, is so important.
    I realize the moment when Sasuke actually used it is important, But it isn't as if his desire to protect his teammates gave Sasuke a power his didn't already have. Still, I'll admit that this is pretty much the only example of desire to protect others actually help achieve a win that doesn't involve Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    His deactivating the flames in the fashion that he did to save Karin was already an example of his displaying the ability to manipulate Amaterasu's flames, he just hadn't done so for combat purposes until the Kage Summit. The ability to manipulate Amaterasu is still an ability he first showcased in an effort to protect his allies.
    That wasn't manipulation. That was simply the ability to turn them off, Something that more then likely every MS user with Amaterasu can do. Sasuke's ability to manipulate the flames is apparently unique to him, While the ability to shut off Amaterasu has been shown by Itachi and possibly Madara.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    No way this is true. Minato's actions still reverberate throughout this entire manga. Almost everything that Naruto has done recently with regards to the Kyuubi's power, or even before, has all been because of his father's actions on that night 16 years ago. So, it can't be viewed that their actions were meaningless just because the threat is still around, or because the person died. The threat was delayed so long that a major opportunity was afforded to the shinobi world, as well as Konoha. Naruto's role in helping to protect Konoha during Orochimaru's attack was huge. In what way does Naruto's accomplishment against Pain, which led to the mass resurrection of hundreds, possibly thousands, inside Konoha happen without Minato and Jiraiya's actions?

    It doesn't.

    Kakashi may even have died on that night 16 years ago with no one around to stop the Kyuubi, forcing him to get involved as well, which would have possibly meant he wouldn't have ended up as Naruto's Sensei, meaning Naruto would never have learned the Fuuton RasenShuriken. Heck, Madara would likely still have control of the Kyuubi, which would have made him far closer to his ultimate goal.

    Jiraiya's sacrifice, for example, is significantly responsible for why Pain was defeated.
    In all honestly that was all due to luck. Minato's actions worked more because no one came after the Kyuubi til 12 years later then because it was the right thing to do. Had Madara simply came the next day and grab the infant Naruto, Then Minato's actions wouldn't have meant anything. Minato had no hand in keeping Madara from attempting to grab the Kyuubi again or even attacking the village once again. Even his desire to have Naruto master the Kyuubi isn't due to anything he could have planned. It was luck that Naruto was able to meet Kirabi and finally go into himself to meet his mother and seal the Kyuubi. As far as we know, There would have been no other way for Naruto to do that. Also, Naruto's role during Orochimaru's invasion wasn't all that great towards the overall war. Yeah, He was able to turn Gaara to his side which really helped out later on, But at that moment whether or not he fought Gaara couldn't have changed the outcome of the invasion. Gaara and his siblings were already retreating because of the damage Gaara had taken. They were out of the invasion at the point Sasuke and Naruto confronted them.

    The same with defeating Pain. Yeah, Jiraiya had a role in it, But it was also luck that Naruto became a Sage Mode user and was able to complete the FRS. Otherwise he would have never even gotten to the point where he could influence Nagato. Not to mention the luck in Hinata interfering and getting stuck down in order to force Naruto into his Kyuubi form where he could escape and meet Minato.

    Now I'm not saying what he or the others did was meaningless. It's simply that they were never able to achieve anything permanent in their desire to protect others. So yeah, Their actions aren't meaningless, But they needed a bunch of luck for things to actually work in their favor afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Sasuke pulling out an even more complete Susanoo when he spoke with Kakashi was a result of two competing ideologies. He definitely saw some good left in him, but then he found a way to twist it around to suit his hatred. What we saw inside of him pretty much confirmed that there's some good left in him, and it isn't all hatred. Also, his love for Itachi, and Itachi's love for him absolutely influenced the appearance of that more powerful Susanoo against Danzou. All the flashbacks were about how much his loving brother sacrificed for not just the village, but also for him.

    It's like Nagato once said. It's because people love, that they are capable of hate. Sasuke's hatred is also greatly driven by his love, same as it was for Nagato.
    I don't know about that. I don't think Sasuke viewed any good inside himself when he was speaking to Kakashi. I think it wasn't til Naruto spoke with him that he recognized something like that, Because that was when his appearance changed. There's no doubt that the love Sasuke once had for Itachi has returned with the revelation of the truth, But it's quite clear that Sasuke is drawing on his hatred as fuel instead of that love.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    The whole becoming a god thing was all Yahiko's dream, and exactly the types of things he use to say as a kid, that he'd become the god of this world. Nagato took on Yahiko's dream and simply put an extreme twist on it. The confirmation that Yahiko was truly significant in his whole way of thinking, was his labeling it as one of the great pains in his life that led him down the path that he chose to take.
    Yahiko was significant to what Nagato became, Which is likely why Nagato made Yahiko's body his main one, But beyond that he didn't seem to play any role in Nagato's actions.

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    Re: Naruto 519 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Again, Why would Minato attempt to use a clone when he didn't require one in the first place? Minato was able to form the Rasengan with one hand, Thus any attempt to add a nature to it would have been done in the same way. Not just that, But Minato died after making it, Thus we have no idea whether he could have done it if he had been given the time.
    Minato died, leaving not much time for him to complete it, that is fair.

    However, Minato was clearly attempting this for a long enough period of time that Kakashi himself was also trying it, and then created Chidori only after failing to combine rasengan with nature manipulation.

    So, Kakashi clearly had to have learned Rasengan from Minato at some point, and I doubt he learned it in a week like Naruto did. Kakashi clearly knew Minato was attempting to combine rasengan with nature manipulation, and he knows that Minato failed to compete it.

    Quote Quote:
    "Why would Minato attempt to use a clone when he didn't require one in the first place? Minato was able to form the Rasengan with one hand, Thus any attempt to add a nature to it would have been done in the same way."
    The point is he couldn't do it, and neither could Kakashi. Master and student both failed, Naruto succeeded. It's as simple as that. Minato, according to Kakashi, failed to do it, which means he clearly had a decent bit of time to practice it. If it took Naruto using that incredible Kage Bunshin method to master FRS, and it's confirmed by Kakashi that even Minato couldn't use such a method, then it obviously means Minato mastering that technique would take an incredible length of time, he might never have mastered it.

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    Re: Naruto 519 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by SenninSage View Post
    Minato died, leaving not much time for him to complete it, that is fair.

    However, Minato was clearly attempting this for a long enough period of time that Kakashi himself was also trying it, and then created Chidori only after failing to combine rasengan with nature manipulation.

    So, Kakashi clearly had to have learned Rasengan from Minato at some point, and I doubt he learned it in a week like Naruto did. Kakashi clearly knew Minato was attempting to combine rasengan with nature manipulation, and he knows that Minato failed to compete it.

    The point is he couldn't do it, and neither could Kakashi. Master and student both failed, Naruto succeeded. It's as simple as that. Minato, according to Kakashi, failed to do it, which means he clearly had a decent bit of time to practice it. If it took Naruto using that incredible Kage Bunshin method to master FRS, and it's confirmed by Kakashi that even Minato couldn't use such a method, then it obviously means Minato mastering that technique would take an incredible length of time, he might never have mastered it.
    Right, This is what I was saying. Naruto was able to compress decades worth of effort into a short time frame, Something Minato couldn't do. By all accounts, It would have taken more then the couple of years that Minato had to add a nature. We can't say positively either way whether given the same amount of time, Minato could or couldn't have added his nature to the Rasengan. That makes it hard to tell which part of the FRS training was due to natural talent on Naruto's part and which was due to Naruto simply having far more time to attempt adding a nature to Rasengan.

    Also, I don't see why Kakashi couldn't have learnt it all that fast considering he has much better chakra control then Naruto and possibly the aid of the Sharingan to speed up his training.

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