Naruto Hangout Thread v.11

[^Cesar^]

if sasuke is really narutos opposite, and assuming people from the whirpool country had powerful water jutsus, naruto will learn water.

Yea, makes sense ...
Fire is strong against wind, but weak against water
Lighting is strong against water, but weak against wind

That gonna make Naruto the perfect opposite from Sasuke, and balance their element power as well

IF Naruto will really learn the water element, it will be just fanservice to me

Maybe, but dont forget what Kishi is trying to show us "so far and so close". Since the first Naruto vs Sasuke fight, they are both going to be the opposite one each other, even on their chakra (remembers Karins description of their chakra?)

[Captain Sicarius]

IF Naruto will really learn the water element, it will be just fanservice to me

nah, you could say it makes sense, naruto vs sasuke fight will most likely be fifty fifty, kishimoto is not pulling stuff that puts naruto in disadvantage, like pulling a wind jutsu and then getting hammered by fire with no water counter.

[jaymizzo]

What forum are you reading? Almost everybody is complaining about Sasuke getting help all the time. Which is why I understand Franckie's point of wanting to see Naruto win a fight without help for once.
I can only repeat this over and over, no one is taking anything from Naruto's strength. He put up a great fight against Pain and Kyuubi, and most important of all, the finish move was his and his alone.

But still, he gets his ass saved all the time.
remember the good ol' days when fights were won by having a plan and outsmarting your opponent? Yeah, that's what made the Naruto manga so awesome. I liked DBZ back in the day, but Naruto is, or was way superior to DBZ in that (and still is in many other) aspects. Now it's the same "Ouch, almost got defeated, eat magic bean/get solar power blast/look at the moon/fuse with Vegeta" all the time.

Name Me One Person Who Has Won a Battle With no Help, meaning

1. No summons
2. No Assists of any kind
3. No Motivation or Plot Shields

Name Me that one Person

And Dont Say the First Hokage, Coz U dont know what went down :P.. Im Talking about A full fight

Edit: Neither Did Sasuke ar VOTE, CS isnt his born power

[SenninSage]

Sorry to dissapointed you but you seriously think that Naruto can beat by himself, Itachi, Nagato, Deidara, Kakuzu, sasori and kabuto by himself?
The next event to come as it was predicted is Naruto meeting a young ninja with powerfull eye"Sasuke".

Umm, with the exception of Itachi and Nagato, I think Naruto definitely has a fair shot at all the rest.

Sasuke, before Mangekyou Sharingan, can beat Deidara, but Naruto who fought Pain can't? GET REAL.

Sasori is a more tricky subject, due to the nature of his abilities, and the poison, but Naruto, just as he usually always does, will find a way to beat a seemingly more skilled opponent initially.

Kakuzu? It would be tough indeed, especially with his yet to be discovered secrets, but please don't underestimate Naruto, he's powerful, skilled, smart in combat, and has an amazing never give up attitude that is only a plus for him. He'd find a way to succeed. Also, as if people are forgetting, Kishi was essentially showing to us all, when Naruto defeated Kakuzu in his most powerful form as easily as he did that, as powerful as Kakuzu is, Naruto was just in another league.

It doesn't matter that Naruto wasn't there to help in discerning, or figuring out Kakuzu's abilities on his own. He would've managed to learned what they were before being completely defeated regardless.

Kabuto: Naruto, a much younger Naruto at that, basically defeated Kabuto with his rasengan, even though Naruto himself was going to die, and Kabuto was going to survive, but Naruto put a major hurting on him, one that left him unable to continue fighting. Kabuto is clearly of a much higher level now, but remember that Naruto is Kabuto's ultimate target, Sasuke he sees as a stop gap on the way to that goal. If you think Naruto can't beat Kabuto on his own, prepare to be shocked because Naruto, when put in the situation, has always found a way to win or compete on even footing with his opponent.

However, besides the Pain fight, and a few flashes here and there, we've yet to see what this new Naruto is completely made of, and he's now even stronger than he was when he fought Pain.

Pain should be on that list, too. Because, without knowing all his secrets, and without Naruto being a Jinchuuruki who Pain wouldn't kill, I don't think very many, if any, could beat Pain. He's seriously that powerful.

We must remember that Hanzou was a total beast. Taking on Jiraiya, Orichimaru, and Tsunade in their primes at exactly the same time, and it seemed to be easy for him. Pain killing someone like that can't be overlooked. He even made defeating Jiraiya, a more powerful and experienced Jiraiya than the one Hanzou defeated all those years ago, look like this effortless thing.

I think Kishi personally knows that Naruto couldn't beat such an opponent as Pain at that time, which is why he purposely set up the various circumstances to work out as they did, Pain being weakened, God Realm's power not being present, most of Pain's secrets being unraveled by the time Naruto met up with him, Pain not killing Naruto when he had the opportunity many times, Nagato showing signs of redemption, then ultimately Nagato turning to Naruto's side. Pain and Naruto had a battle, Nagato and Naruto avoided war, and made peace instead.

[Googlez_kun]

Name Me One Person Who Has Won a Battle With no Help, meaning

1. No summons
2. No Assists of any kind
3. No Motivation or Plot Shields

Name Me that one Person

And Dont Say the First Hokage, Coz U dont know what went down :P.. Im Talking about A full fight

Summons are a jutsu and require chakra,so actually they are not help.They are rather a tool,just like kunai.

[jayzar]

Name Me One Person Who Has Won a Battle With no Help, meaning

1. No summons
2. No Assists of any kind
3. No Motivation or Plot Shields

Name Me that one Person

And Dont Say the First Hokage, Coz U dont know what went down :P.. Im Talking about A full fight

Edit: Neither Did Sasuke ar VOTE, CS isnt his born power

I'm actually totally fine with the summoning/assists/whatever

but just off the top of my head
(and excluding the chuunin pre-lims)
Itachi Vs Kakashi

[SNACKSLAPPER]

Summons are a jutsu and require chakra,so actually they are not help.They are rather a tool,just like kunai.

i think it is help. in naruto's case. the frogs trained him. gambunta doesn't just do what he is told. same with orochimaro's snake. they all have free will.

[Paradoxicon]

Name Me One Person Who Has Won a Battle With no Help, meaning

1. No summons
2. No Assists of any kind
3. No Motivation or Plot Shields

Name Me that one Person

And Dont Say the First Hokage, Coz U dont know what went down :P.. Im Talking about A full fight

Edit: Neither Did Sasuke ar VOTE, CS isnt his born power

Fail post is fail. Summons are part of the summoners strength, and how are we to judge somebody by having a "plot shield". All main characters lost fights before.
I mentioned it before, Chuunin exams and Sasuke retrival arc. Simple as that. A series of 1vs1 matches without any interference.
Also you have to differ between "not his given power" and "making it your power". Like Naruto letting Kyuubi take over to fight for him, or just tapping into his power to boost his own.



@SenninSage: SasukeFanboy's... sry, I mean RealTwisted's post was about Kabuto and his Edo Tensei. Of course Naruto now can woop ass any of them individually, but he probably wants to imply that Kabuto and his crew are just EMS fodder for super hero Sasuke.

Funny though, in the end Sasuke is gonna lose to Naruto anyway. Why even bother comparing these two...

[Googlez_kun]

i think it is help. in naruto's case. the frogs trained him. gambunta doesn't just do what he is told. same with orochimaro's snake. they all have free will.

Yeah,but ninja use their chakra to summon it,so it is a jutsu and part of the fight and not some kind oh help.

Look at it like this:

In the fight against Pain,the summons Bunta,Ken and Hiro were summoned by Shima,so they were actually help.If Naruto summoned them,it would've not been help.

[zerocooldx]

No, I don't find it unusal. Although that is probably due to a major theme of the series being about team work, and how important it is to open up to others.

I don't find it unusual that a 16 year old who is one of the strongest shinobi out there still needs help, because he is still a child like any of the other rookies. Everyone in this series receives help during their fights, but the only time anyone really ever has a problem with it is when Naruto is the one performing. He has had solo victories, he has had some with help. Why should it matter so much that a young man still needs assistance? It's as though people around here see receiving help as being a bad thing.

Naruto is strong enough to have Kyuubi question how he got so powerful, people turn around and say "HIS MOTHER PUT KYUUBI OFF BALANCE THATS WHY HE LOST", yet ignore everything Naruto achieved in that fight. The same goes for his fight with Pain, or any other battle Naruto has been in. There is always a group of people who have a problem. Always overlooking what Naruto achieved and always claiming he needed help.

I don't see people going around saying Kakashi was saved by Naruto, or Sakura and Sasuke were saved by Naruto. I don't see people complaining about Madara or Zetsu having Sasuke's back whenever he needs it, or anyone complaining about how everyone else uses their summons. It's only ever a problem when Naruto is the one receiving help.

That is what I find unusual. Is it not unusual that there is such a large amount of people who have a problem with something so trivial? Is it not unusual that there are so many people being so ignorant as to try and argue against Kyuubi's statement?

Don't blame or call people ignorant for expecting the "main character" do develop and grow on his own as the story line progresses. I mean god forbid if that was to ever happen here. I mean it's not like things naturally tend to work that way or anything. Normally people start off with a lot of support and then learn to stand on their own two feet. Unfortunately the exact opposite of what is occurring with Naruto. His last real one vs. one ordeal was against Sasuke at the Valley of the End or against Gaara back when Suna attacked Konoha. Now the main issue that people have with Naruto is that when he ends up getting outside help, the frogs are fine, it results in not only him being "saved" but then he also proceeds on to "victory" that is heavily rooted in that outside support.

Yeah people understand that "team work" is important and what not, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Very few people would have an issue with someone helping someone else once an ordeal has all but been clearly finished. Or even if someone comes in and completely stops a certain ordeal and it ends right then and there. But to constantly watch someone come in and walk Naruto through all of his difficult ordeals and then watch him overcome those obstacle without showing any significant personal growth that is derived from himself or his own personal conviction is at best rather annoying. Like it or not this is honestly one of the worst things that can be done for character development in any story. Naturally at some point people have to learn on their own whether it be good or bad.

We all wanted to see Naruto take down the Kyuubi on his own and do so buy using what he has learned on his own thus far. Thats how things are and should be done. It's just too bad that Naruto hasn't learned a whole heck of alot on his own. Someone has always been there to walk him through the tough times. But I mean who wants to watch someone struggle through 2/3 of an ordeal on their own and then have someone pop up and walk them through the last 1/3, and then keeping watching the same thing happen 10+ times? This has nothing to do with "Oh Naruto revolves around team-work so get over it and accept it". This has everything to do with proper story telling and natural character development. You just don't go against the grain, at least not if you know what you are doing.

[kthy0056]

Don't blame or call people ignorant for expecting the "main character" do develop and grow on his own as the story line progresses.

You also should not expect people to take you seriously if you think that development means only "having" more powers. I'll post again I statement I made about a similar topic. Analyze the last two power-ups Sasuke and Naruto gained, more exactly the way they did.
* Sasuke got EMS simply by asking Madara to transplant Itachi's eyes. No development, no relation, nothing. Just a new power-up.
* Naruto got control on Kyuubi after fighting against his dark self, becoming a friend of Kirabi, fighting the bijuu itself (with help, because that's a benefit of love and friendship - care from the loved ones), seeing his mom and talking with her. He has a new power, he met his mother, he feels a little better (after the Dark Naruto stuff), and he has a friend in Kirabi.
Seriously, nitpick all you can. But Naruto is still way more developed than Sasuke, and I'm not talking about abilities at all.

Heh, I think Asher is the one with the literature in here, right? I just read this book called "Notre-Dame de Paris" which is basically the story of the hunchback from the Notre-Dame cathedral. The main character, a very believable and interesting one is Quasimodo, the hunchback himself. He is not beautiful, he is not rich, the leader of anyone. But he has the purest heart and he is very complex. Most of all, believable. That's what I personally want and like to see with Naruto. His fights were better than Sasuke's because he always got help, making the main character looking normal.

Yeah people understand that "team work" is important and what not, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

No, it doesn't. I'm sad to say that many of you who read Naruto hasn't understood what this manga is all about.
Do you guys really need chapter-by-chapter examples of why Naruto is focused on teamwork and friendship in general?

[zerocooldx]

You also should not expect people to take you seriously if you think that development means only "having" more powers. I'll post again I statement I made about a similar topic. Analyze the last two power-ups Sasuke and Naruto gained, more exactly the way they did.
* Sasuke got EMS simply by asking Madara to transplant Itachi's eyes. No development, no relation, nothing. Just a new power-up.
* Naruto got control on Kyuubi after fighting against his dark self, becoming a friend of Kirabi, fighting the bijuu itself (with help, because that's a benefit of love and friendship - care from the loved ones), seeing his mom and talking with her. He has a new power, he met his mother, he feels a little better (after the Dark Naruto stuff), and he has a friend in Kirabi.
Seriously, nitpick all you can. But Naruto is still way more developed than Sasuke, and I'm not talking about abilities at all.

Heh, I think Asher is the one with the literature in here, right? I just read this book called "Notre-Dame de Paris" which is basically the story of the hunchback from the Notre-Dame cathedral. The main character, a very believable and interesting one is Quasimodo, the hunchback himself. He is not beautiful, he is not rich, the leader of anyone. But he has the purest heart and he is very complex. Most of all, believable. That's what I personally want and like to see with Naruto. His fights were better than Sasuke's because he always got help, making the main character looking normal.


No, it doesn't. I'm sad to say that many of you who read Naruto hasn't understood what this manga is all about.
Do you guys really need chapter-by-chapter examples of why Naruto is focused on teamwork and friendship in general?

Who said i'm talking about that "power" equals "character development"? Naruto's got plenty of power, too bad his real character development can be measured with a yard stick or two from the beginning of the manga to now. He has been singing the same old song since he fought Gaara.

[kthy0056]

Who said i'm talking about that "power" equals "character development"?

You said something about ""why is Naruto not fighting Kyuubi alone", which I honestly find irritating, because you, like Frankie, imply that the misanthropic and psychopatic Sasuke is a well defined character, and Naruto is not. It's called indirect characterization, and if he was helped by Kirabi and his mom during the Kyuubi fight, it only shows his rewards for being a kind person that changed a lot of people.

He has been singing the same old song since he fought Gaara.

Is that called motivation or what? I can see where you're going with it. Naruto is not the most round character from the world, he plays in a shounen manga, an action Japanese comic book. But he's definitely better than many others, like Sasuke or Sakura. If you think that Naruto sings the same song for a while, then you may really have a hard time learning that Sasuke sings the same song (a bad one, anyway) from the start of the manga. One of the first things we learn about him is that he wants to avenge his clan by killing his brother. What is he doing now? Avenging his clan, by killing others. Great growth on him, bro.

[zerocooldx]

You said something about ""why is Naruto not fighting Kyuubi alone", which I honestly find irritating, because you, like Frankie, imply that the misanthropic and psychopatic Sasuke is a well defined character, and Naruto is not. It's called indirect characterization, and if he was helped by Kirabi and his mom during the Kyuubi fight, it only shows his rewards for being a kind person that changed a lot of people.


Is that called motivation or what? I can see where you're going with it. Naruto is not the most round character from the world, he plays in a shounen manga, an action Japanese comic book. But he's definitely better than many others, like Sasuke or Sakura. If you think that Naruto sings the same song for a while, then you may really have a hard time learning that Sasuke sings the same song (a bad one, anyway) from the start of the manga. One of the first things we learn about him is that he wants to avenge his clan by killing his brother. What is he doing now? Avenging his clan, by killing others. Great growth on him, bro.

We all wanted to see Naruto take down the Kyuubi on his own and do so buy using what he has learned on his own thus far.

Read before posting. This has very little to do with fighting power and more so with personal character growth and maturity.

And Naruto is well rounded? A childish character who couldn't lead people to water if he was in a boat or make difficult decisions without strong outside influence is indeed well rounded. Hell even Sakura at times has shown to possess more personal conviction then Naruto. By reading the comments of the last 2 weeks it seems that majority of the people are starting to read and post about the manga souly to see if Naruto can do anything new or on his own.

[kthy0056]

Read before posting. This has very little to do with fighting power and more so with personal character growth and maturity.

No, that would imply contradiction in your post. Like I said, fighting alone a huge f***ing monster with no real setting is anything but development.
Really, I'm not talking out of my ass. You're comparing Oskar Schindler from Schindler's List (that would be Naruto) with John McClane from the Die Hard series (Sasuke), while claiming that the guy who kills everyone on his own is the developed one.
Fact: Since the first chapters, the author had an accent of team. Let me quote Kakashi (again):

Those who break the rules and codes of the ninja are trash. Those who don't take of their comrades are lower than trash.

A childish character who couldn't lead people to water if he was in a boat or make difficult decisions without strong outside influence is indeed well rounded.

Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke.
Hurr durr, I kill people, because my hatred is power and I'm really angry for classic shinobi stuff that happened a decade ago.

The difference between Sasuke and Naruto in this case are the effects. Sasuke means something to nobody. Only Madara and Kabuto wants him, his eyes more exactly, and ninjas villages want him for execution. He isn't relevant to anything. His plot doesn't lead him to anything. Kishimoto invests in him just because he's very popular.

I mean, take a look at Naruto's side. There's Kisame hiding near Kirabi, a plot can easily be set about that. Sasuke is in Madara's hiding, recovering from the transplant. Madara will just teleport him in front of another enemy, where he will kill them with his newfound powers. That's all he ever has to do, be a power machine.

Hell even Sakura at times has shown to possess more personal conviction then Naruto

Yeah, like the time she put her teammates to sleep, and decided to kill an S level ninja by herself, which she wasn't able to complete. Great job, Sakura! You ignored all those years everyone taught you about being a shinobi!
For god's sakes, Sakura is a medical ninja. Acting outside of her team is imbecility at its best! That's a downgrade of the character, not true development.

I mean, I can see Sasuke becoming that way, he was the "avenger" type from the whole beginning. But don't claim that Naruto needs to be lonely and powerful too.