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they both die
Eh, hard to say. But as Lexx said, we have to count Itachi's thought's about Jiraya. Itachi standing there with tsukuyomi said, that they don't have lot of chances against Jiraya.
So i see that also Sasuke just by himself does not have enough strenght to fight jiraya.
I know, Amaterasu, Susanoo and whatever, but i have no doubts, that Jiraya could withstand these attacks...
Damn soo much work...
On a different note: Does having hatred "hax bonus" power up his MS abilities? Maybe, but that's more the reason why he shouldn't have to rely on his hate so much lest all his chakra and life force end up down the drain. While Sasuke's life force is wasted maintaining a needless susano, Jiraiya would just be there smiling and prancing around maintaining a cheap defensive with all his clones and substitution.
I love how Richo explains it:
Last edited by megadud20; June 30, 2010 at 04:45 AM.
@Megadud20: I'd appreciate if you could send me link to how jiraiya is immune to tsukuyomi. Sasuke is the only person who has the potential of breaking tsukuyomi until the fight with kirabi. Even then it was told that itachi wasn't trying to kill sasuke. Kakashi survived and he was bedridden. If itachi wanted sasuke to kill him then he would go even easier on sasuke or maybe around the same because sasuke sharingan could be stronger. The point is the battle is vague about MS true power since madara has to blabber after the fight.
Then at Kirabi it shows that a biju can help break the tsukuyomi. This is an obvious move because without introducing such thing, naruto would never overcame his weakness. Which lead me to believe SM IS NOT ENOUGH to deal with tsukuyomi. Yes, controlling biju will make him a lot stronger, but it was specifically shown that biju counter tsukuyomi. However, not even once a SM users was shown to have to deal with genjutsu.
I am not sure if both ma and pa chakra is infused with jiraiya. But, if not how would they know if jiraiya is under genjutsu or not. 3 seconds is all he needs to paralyze/kill him. And a SM doesn't automatically make a user superior to caster. And SM is an inferior mastery compared to controlling a biju. SM users never deal with genjutsu users, so it's hard to say, but it never shows some kind of immunity shield against genjutsu.
Just looking at their arsenal, sasuke is superior. Of course a simple smart moves could be used against haxx jutsu. I am not going to argue how A would work against B. We know the tools are there, but we can't say how they are going to be used.
Now analyzing their battle IQ. Unfortunately sasuke used to be smarter. It's ridiculous to see how much he relies on MS after itachi fight. It seems he abandon his old fighting style. The way he used shuriken against oro and itachi is smart. Wasting chakra on MS and misses is stupid. However, his hate and craziness could also be a positive point. Why can't have the best of both? Atm he's stupid and crazy. Before he was smart but lack other ambition apart from killing itachi. If he could get the plus side of both he would have intelligence and determination.
Maybe now Jiraiya is stornger a tad. But, won't sasuke be stronger since he has EMS? I voted for him with also a little prediction. Usually I don't do this, but his boost is inevitable.
Thank you, however I do not know if it was sarcasm or praising:P
Originally Posted by Fixed explanation
the technique used to replace yourself with a log is called Kawarimi and is a genjutsu of the sort. in order to perform this technique a person has to use shunsin no jutsu (body flicker jutsu) and then replace yourself with a log or any other object to create confusion so that the person can escape.
the body flicker technique used to perform this jutsu is basicly moving at almost untracable speed. Kawarime can be seen by sharingan.
Last edited by Richo; June 30, 2010 at 06:16 AM.
Anyway, proof that Itachi didn't mean what he said or stop reading from the secret Naruto Manual and just show it to all of us. He was willing to let Kisame shave Naruto, he killed his own clan, but somehow we are suppose to believe that he was buddy buddy with Jiraiya based on what? Oh that's right, it's the secret manual again. Maybe you are right in the end, but as of now there is no proof and you are acting like you have facts on your side talking about others need help
Last edited by jdw; June 30, 2010 at 06:29 AM.
this page suggests that Jiraiya won't have to grow tired from making shadow clones and using other chakra costly ninjutsu.
About the term "inhuman", I see how that can be a bit hard to swallow, but then again, what other ninja can be expected to be able to pick up a giant frog statue, one of animal pein's rhino summons? (If that's what it was), and be able to throw very large objects like if they were pillows? I believe that at one point Tsunade's strength was described as "inhuman" as well, and Sage mode seems to be better if not the same strength-wise.
I see some people aren't believing me about the advantages that SM offers. The anime talks a lot more in depth about SM. In the english subs it is mentioned that all five senses of the user are enhanced instead of how the manga says "activated in a number of ways", so this suggests that the user's mind and body are operating at a faster pace (I include mind as well, because the five senses pertain to the functions of the brain)
Now, to understand why I believe that Sage mode resists the genjutsu spammed via MS, you have to know that Sage mode makes you part of your environment since fukasaku told Naruto that "you must become one with nature" in order to use it. This is proved when Naruto uses SM to track (yes, track, he's now a sensor type apparently; and with a pretty good range to boot as seen here). Now, one must wonder: how can an Uchiha without the slightest knowledge of how the sage arts work, hope to gain full control (after he gains access), into the chakra network of a person who uses sage mode? I believe an Uchiha has to also learn how to control natural energy inside a person since it is completely not at all similar to regular chakra. How the heck they can do this from a distance, beats me. Again, the chakra has changed completely. It is now combined and in perfect balance with the chakra of nature of the earth and atmosphere and the ninja is considered "dead" (in the famous words of that one frog). Keep in mind that one that has learned how to keep still perfectly is no longer considered "an animal", since that same frog (gama-something) said that keeping still is the hardest thing for an animal to do. That's what it means to be a senjutsu user after all. So in essence, trying to control Jiraiya's chakra's while he is in SM, would be kind of like trying to control a rock/boulder/tree/cloud's natural chakra's with a MS. It's probably not impossible since I'm no one to say that it is, but it's definitely different from trying to control the chakras of any standard ninja. Furthermore, like I've said a million times already, he has the frogs gathering the chakra for him as he fights (a teamwork effort), which throws a wrench in the plans of the genjutsu caster. Like, for one, who to use the genjustu on? Since Jiraiya and the frogs have to be in perfect sync (chakra-wise) so they can fuse, even if one person is controlled, the partner will surely notice the strange pattern taking effect instantly, and thats when they can force their own chakra into the body of the victim like how Sakura and Chiyo did with Naruto. For someone who is experienced in fusing with another, this shouldn't pose much difficulty.
And about that one last issue about Sasuke's hatred, Jiraiya isn't really doing anything to feed Sasuke's hatred, but either way I guess since the poster of this thread said that both people can use everything they've been seen to do, then I'll just assume that Sasuke gets a composed mind plus his hatred hax powers. Even still though, it's not like he'd be too fast for Jiraiya's fighting skills, sure he can use speed, but so can Jiraiya; defensively at least. He HAS fought Orochimaru before, and he also has shown to be better at countering instead of avoiding as seen here. It's not like Jiraiya would be a sitting duck while Sasuke gets all the hits he wants, no, not at all, but even still, Sasuke's speed may just well be out-matched by Fukasaku's powerful sword-like tongue. Let's not forget about that now...
I'm afraid you misunderstood me about "fooling the sharingan". I didn't mean that Jiraiya will use insane speed like the Raikage, but that Jiraiya must no doubt have learned to use his defensive techniques with great skill. Great skill enough to make a technique look like if it hadn't been made. Impossible? That's not what this suggests. Even Itachi's MS couldn't see Kakashi's perfectly timed Doton jutsu. The same could be done with shadow clones as seen here. Kakashi was praising Naruto's timing of the second shadow clone that he wasn't even able to see. The last example and probably the best one as it fools even Sasuke's sharingan is found here. Itachi was able to make a shadow clone without Sasuke even noticing. If you watch the anime in this same part, the animators exaggerate Sasuke's expression even more, even going as far as putting in a comment of how surprised he was that Itachi had made that during their shuriken fight, and he wasn't even able to notice.
Now just think: if Kakashi, Naruto, and Itachi are all able to produce shadow clones with excellent timing that cannot even be traced by the sharingan or MS alone, then why not Jiraiya who has more battle experience than any of these people and is at a higher level (since he's a Sannin) than any of these ninjas (Naruto is a bit arguable though)...
This will be my last post for a while as I need my sleep...
Last edited by megadud20; June 30, 2010 at 07:24 AM.
Itachi is legendary for his hand seals, the speed at which Itachi can perform hand seals is just stagering and does probably outmach every shinobi. Itachi has showed us mutliply times how fast he can do this and make it look like he even skipped the hand seals in order to perform the jutsu. The sharingan is known for its perception and predicting enemy moves upon previous moves thats where it strenght lies, but even the sharingan has it limits to how fast it can see something. Itachi has shown this against Kakashi and Sasuke which both own the sharingan fully developed. I have no idea if the MS actualy gives a higher rate of perception since it isn't normaly used in battle besides for casting its special jutsu.
We should not consider Naruto and Itachi in this fight since they both mastered said abilities to the highest level (itachi hand seal perfomance and narut Kage bunshin)
the thing is that some people think that the sharingan can follow every movement and thus predict at all times, however this is false. the perception of the sharingan depends on 2 factors being the user and the speed the user can move at itself. Lee and naruto have both shown that you can out maneuvre the sharingan with mere speed alone, untill a certain degree the sharingan can keep up but after that it will not show anything.
In this fight however this will not be a problem since jiraiya is not known for his superior speed, he is fast but sasuke is faster. jiraiya has to depend on his endurance and physical strenght which he outclasses sasuke without much problems. In sage mode we cannot even compare both of them, in sage mode jiraiya will be fast but still as fast as sasuke. Sasuke just has to hope he never gets hits by any taijutsu of jiraiya while in Sage mode as that would end the battle pretty much instantly.
furthermore jiraiya will not have many problems with sasuke his superior speed due the following ninjutsu:
1. Doton: Yomi Numa (earth release: swamp of the underworld)
2. Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari (Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind )
the swamp size and deepness can be controlled as is capable of incapitating Manda. I presume Jiraiya can controll this jutsu to a extend that he can move freely in it, Sasuke is no earth type so he cant do anything about it.
Sasuke his superior speed on the ground level would already be gone due to this jutsu and would require to stay in the air through summoning however how he can perform any jutsu high in the air while evading jiraiya at the same time depending on inferior speed of his summoning (compared to his own) will put a strain on this.
Toad mouth bind requires atleast AM to escape from, however sasuke does not have the knowledge this is possible (he passed out at that time already)
Itachi was full of enigma, I could argue that trying to cut off naruto foot was a bluff. He charmed the girl that went with jiraiya, and he could make sure to get jiraiya back anytime. He was a "spy", he have to trick friend also to some extend. The point is we've never see itachi kill anyone apart from the clan, which he had too. Kakashi survive, sasuke survive, naruto survive and jiraiya too. He had no reason to engage in a big fight that could kill someone as important as jiraiya to the village. If he tried to use amaterasu, at that distance there is nothing jiraiya can do that we can think of. Especially we have kisame with samehada. But, leaving the scene was the wisest decision, he doesn't have to blow his cover and everybody is safe. His excuse could go along like "jiraiya already trapped us in his jutsu and I was exhausted from tsukuyomi. Using amaterasu would also kill the kyuubi". Let's leave jiraiya vs itachi at other thread.
Now back on jiraiya vs sasuke. Genjutsu is very complicated. Kabuto casted aoe genjutsu, how did it work? There was no sound or eye contact. What I do know is that they inject they chakra into the victim and disrupt their senses. It doesn't matter who the victim is, everyone seems to have the same chakra network. So they can easily change what the victim see, smell etc. How exactly it is injected is unknown. For instance shodaime can use darkness genjutsu. How? Looking into his eye? However, we do know they work and there are some more complicated AOE genjutsu.
The thing is it doesn't matter if you are in SM, you will have the same chakra network and genjutsu user can mingle with it. Advantage of SM you have 2 sages that can help you dispel if you can't do it yourself. But, only if they realize you are in one. How would they know if they are in one too? It will be extremely hard to tell from reality just like itachi vs sasuke battle. Now it is interesting analysis about how sages uses senjutsu, but their network still flows the same way. Unless it's stated that using senjutsu changes your flow of chakra and the network. It's all about mingling with your senses, and since sages senses are more sensitive as you claim, wouldn't they feel the genjutsu even worse?
I also don't watch the anime. So, I only take things from manga. I hope that's fine, since I feel it should be more reliable anyway.
I actually also want to clarify some things regarding my vote. "Currently" sasuke cannot defeat jiraiya. He was too immature and in many ways I feel inferior to itachi. However, we can make educated guess that sasuke growth with EMS is inevitable. Because of this factor I voted for sasuke.
I don't take it personally, don't worry. Anyway, Naruto isn't that way because skills and matchups matter, and levels change. One prime example is:
Gaara beat Sasuke
Naruto beat Gaara
Sasuke beat Naruto
According to your silliness, Naruto won. We know he didn't.
edit: I understand there is elemental match ups, but elemental ninjutsu is just one of many ninja skills. If a fire users got beaten by water users, he didn't lose "just" because elemental mismatch, but he fail to utilize other skills and many other factors too. But, I feel if someone wins fair and square is because s/he is superior, unless we see obvious plot shield.
Last edited by hibar90; June 30, 2010 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by Nicholas.Sama; June 30, 2010 at 11:47 AM.
SM chakra with your regular chakra network. They are completely different things, they look NOTHING alike. Senjutsu looks greater as it is seen to have a great reach, and this supports my claim. Where did you hear that SM follows the same rules as to having the same chakra network? If you mean by that one RARE moment when Kakashi was talking about chakra networks when examining Neji during the CE; he was neglecting SM, since Jiraiya was the only known (or maybe not known) person who can use it.
To further strengthen my point, remember what Shikamaru's dad tells Shikamaru when we suggests going in and sending help to Naruto. He says: No, because now that he is in SM, he is "on a completely different scale/level". How can someone who is (on the words of Shikamaru's dad) "on a completely different scale/level", be judged to have the same chakra networks as everyone else? Hopefully, I've helped you by clearing up that confusion in your mind. SM is a lot greater than you used to think.
Come on man, seriously, it'd be so absurd to think that the anime will start coming out with a completely different storyline to the manga. I know this is the case with many other anime (to skip boring details) , but this is NARUTO, one of the most watched anime shows in the world.
Aside from MY points, Richo brings up numerous good point regarding this explanation. We BOTH make very good arguments (and provide plenty of proof) about how erroneous your beliefs were. If you don't listen to me, listen to him.
Last edited by megadud20; June 30, 2010 at 02:07 PM.
I don't think Sasuke has a genjutsu that could put out Ma and Pa and Jiraiya at the same time, which is basically what is needed for some effective genjutsu to help him win. He doesn't have Tsukuyomi, which could make things different.
Sasuke would have to go long range and try and dodge and tank with Susano. I think Jiraya could find a way to either bypass or penetrate Susano but I really can't tell for sure. I think that if he manages to land Goemon he could have a shot at getting through.
As for Amaterasu, is it unreasonable that Ma and Pa know how to seal the fire? They are 900 years old sages after all. But that's speculation on my end with no manga back up. However, landing Amaterasu is the only way I think Sasuke could win this. And I don't think it would be too easy as he only has a few shots and in combination with Susano, he'll be fighting for a very, very brief time. That's a very small opening versus a Sanin. IMO
Back to the argument about Sasuke vs. Jiraiya.
Many things about Sasuke's genjutsu need to be remembered.
Sasuke only uses occular Sharigan genjutsu. His strongest being Tsyukiyomi.
Now, Sasuke was able to completely overpower Orochimaru with a normal Sharigan genjutsu.
BUT, Sasuke's Tsyukiyomi was broken by Danzou with what seemed like relative ease. He later tricked him more than he actually overpowered him like he did to Orochimaru.
Now, Orochimaru's genjutsu stat is 5.
Jiraiya's genjutsu stat is 3.5
Does that mean Jiraiya will fall for Sasuke's genjutsu? No, it doesn't.
The genjutsu stat, from what I gather, does not factor in one's ability to break genjutsu, but their ability to understand and cast genjutsu.
So, Jiraiya's genjutsu stat has nothing to do with his ability to break genjutsu.
IMO, I don't think Jiraiya will fall for Sasuke's genjutsu becasue I don't think he'll be looking him in the eye. And even if he does, I think he stands a good chance like Danzou to break it. He has good chakra control and a large chakra supply, two keys to breaking genjutsu. And with Ma and Pa he may be semi immune while fused.
So Sasuke's genjutsu= no factor for the most part.
But again, none of that matters. Becasue Jiraiya still has no reasonable counter for a direct Ameratsu strike, nor does he have a true way to counter Sussano.
So, Sasuke wins.
And even if he did, is it an S-Rank one? Because Wind is weak against fire and Ameratsu is the strongest fire jutsu in the manga.
As for Jiraiya "grabbing" Sussano's arrows, you must be kidding.
Firstly, Kakashi, with his Sharigan was not fast enough to even dodge these arrows, yet you think Jiriaya can catch them and throw them away? I don't even know if the Raikage could do that.
I'd liken grabbing one of these arrows to attempting to grab a Giant Sage Rasengan. Basically, it's a horrible fucking idea lol.
As for Sussano being too slow to grab him, eh, I'm not sure. We haven't seen Sussano have to grab someone that fast so it's certainly a possibility, but the arrow thing is complete BS lol.
Last edited by Delbi; June 30, 2010 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost