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View Poll Results: who wins?

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  • Jiraiya wins

    92 64.34%
  • Sasuke wins

    47 32.87%
  • they both die

    4 2.80%
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Thread: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

  1. #451
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Simple, because, while inferior, Jiraiya in Sage Mode has showed to be able to blast away a summon like Naruto did, like Naruto he was able to greatly enhance his jutsus, the only thing that he didn't showed was the whole sensing ability, but as Sage Mode was explained by Fukasaku, his sensing ability should be there, since it is a direct consequence of sensing natural energy.
    Right...but he couldn't sense the chameleon, and he didn't sense Asura Path...

    Quote Quote:
    And Naruto too was pierced by Pein rods, when he implanted it in his shoulder to sense where Nagato was, as for the whole surprise thing I already answered to Rikudou King about it.
    Naruto pierced himself with the rods, rather than being stabbed...considering how he broke the rod when Pain went for it, it's possible that Naruto can increase/decrease his defense (preparing for an attack, whether to block an attack or allow an attack). And your surprise explanation doesn't explain the chameleon.

    Quote Quote:
    What I don't understand is how ppl seems to think that Sasuke can win in a bout of taijutsu against a Sage mode opponent, while Jiraiya in his base was as fast as him ( even if he was slower, he didn't show any problem to react to anyone, and he fought only kage-levels opponents ) and vastly more skilled in Taijutsu.
    Sasuke will win with his other skills, not certainly with Taijutsu imho
    Eh, Sasuke has prediction abilities, as well as the destructive output to penetrate Jiraiya, even though IIRC Jiraiya didn't show any great defense in Sage Mode. Additionally, he's fought with people definitely faster than Jiraiya, and despite you saying that Jiraiya's vastly more skilled in Taijutsu...do we even have evidence that he's vastly more skilled in Taijutsu? What taijutsu skill did Jiraiya show against Pain? At any rate, the Sharingan alone allows a ninja inferior in taijutsu to perform at a higher level than he normally could.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

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  3. #452
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I haven't forgotten, which is why I was using Kirabi and Ee as an example, since like him they had greater speed and taijutsu. Ee also had presumably greater reflexes. Same with Itachi. So as far as we have seen, unless Jiraiya gains a major boost in speed, Sasuke would still be able to follow and counterattack even with Jiraiya being faster. And my point about him being off guard is that Sasuke employs his shunshin, that should be able to allow him to catch Jiraiya off guard for a moment.
    If you think that Jiraiya would lower his guard against an opponet who is right in front of him... Too much bias.
    Still, as I said before Sasuke has his chances, of course ( I doubt that, except against the actual Naruto, Madara and Tobi Sasuke will have major trouble fighting anyone ), still Taijutsu shouldn't be a chance

    Quote Quote:
    It may not have been exactly the same, but it was similar enough in the regards of granting bloodline abilities to bodies that didn't have them. And I wasn't saying that, but as I recall, all the rods weren't taken out of Animal Path before he was taken to Konoha.
    Still, if the ability is granted by the rods, it is because it requires a costant stream of chakra, thus, removed the rods, the Rin'negan too should've been removed.
    Very much like Tobi couldn't control the bijuus without it. And without the rods, the Rin'negan was still in Animal Path's eyes

    Quote Quote:
    How is learning a technique like normal better then being able to see it once and use it, even if it allows any nature to be used? And again, the shared vision isn't a natural ability. It's not as if the Rinnegan user automatically has a bunch of other bodies with them straight off the bat. Nor does it help against an opponent who is faster. The Sharingan can control all the Bijuus. Madara stated it to the Kyuubi in it's flashback and Tobi showed it when he suppressed the Gobi. The rods didn't control the Bijuus, merely send their chakra to the Edo Jinchuuriki.

    Naruto hardly put up any sort of fight and Kirabi only did slightly better. Neither of them poses that much of a challenge to him like Itachi did, who was able to take out his shared vision and then strike before Nagato could even react to the lost. And by what was shown, Nagato being controlled fought better then he normally did.
    Simple, because it isn't simple "learning any jutsu like normal", is istantly learning any jutsu, like Jiraiya said about Nagato:
    he, Nagato, learned at once every jutsu Jiraiya taught him. And the Sharingan does not copy istantly, or rather if the sharingan user hasn't the skill to use the attack, then the sharingan is useless. Take Sasuke, despite his sharingan it required an entire month to learn and perfect the Chidori, along the Lee's speed, which still tired him greatly.
    And it still requires a natural affinity

    Naruto and Bee hardly put any fight since they were overwhelmed by Nagato, simple as that.
    And Itachi put up a fight because he cut away the connection, and he striked when Nagato was already busy with Naruto and Bee. When you have your hands full with the 2 strongest Jinchuuriki, I doubt you have any chance to fight evenly another Kage-level ninja.
    You're being too unfair to Nagato here, he still didn't had any problem to solo 2 Jinchuuriki which have arguably the same speed ( or even slightly higher ) and much more power than Itachi did.
    Itachi was clever, as usual, and exploited all the opening Nagato left

    Quote Originally Posted by UchihaHunter View Post
    Right...but he couldn't sense the chameleon, and he didn't sense Asura Path...
    Good point.
    Still, no one was able to sense him inside the chameleon even Naruto with his "evil sensor" ( and Kabuto was controlling Nagato and aiming to greatly hurt both Bee and Naruto, thus I believe he had definitely evil intenction ) couldn't.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto pierced himself with the rods, rather than being stabbed...considering how he broke the rod when Pain went for it, it's possible that Naruto can increase/decrease his defense (preparing for an attack, whether to block an attack or allow an attack). And your surprise explanation doesn't explain the chameleon.
    You believe that Naruto can increase/decrease his defence while Jiraiya couldn't, why?
    The fact remains that it isn't a matter of decence Jiraiya breaking Sasuke's sword, it's a matter of offence, Sasuke going for the stab and Jiraiya breaking his weapon in half.
    Or what, Jiraiya doesn't have the super strenght too? Its ok to assume that Jiraiya's Sage Mode isn't the same of Naruto, but to pratically treat it like it was some downrated ability instead of a game winner which is it ( in the manga at least ), I find that quite unbelievable

    Quote Quote:
    Eh, Sasuke has prediction abilities, as well as the destructive output to penetrate Jiraiya, even though IIRC Jiraiya didn't show any great defense in Sage Mode. Additionally, he's fought with people definitely faster than Jiraiya, and despite you saying that Jiraiya's vastly more skilled in Taijutsu...do we even have evidence that he's vastly more skilled in Taijutsu? What taijutsu skill did Jiraiya show against Pain? At any rate, the Sharingan alone allows a ninja inferior in taijutsu to perform at a higher level than he normally could.
    Oh gee I don't know, a single kick blinded one of the paths, just to name one of Jiraiya's "feats", and the rest wasn't possible thanks to the Rin'negan connection, which I'm discussing with Rikudou.
    And now I ask you, what are Sasuke's feats in taijutsu against faster opponents?
    I will tell you:
    -against a blinded and weakened Itachi, he had to use Ninjutsu after Itachi beat him up good
    -against Bee, he was destroyed despite having the Sharingan
    -against the Raikage, I don't even go there
    -Against Danzou he did good, but Danzou wasn't a Taijutsu beast, and had at best the same speed of Sasuke

    So you'll excuse me if I think that, against an opponent like Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Sasuke doesn't stand a chance in Taijutsu and related skills

  4. #453
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Good point.
    Still, no one was able to sense him inside the chameleon even Naruto with his "evil sensor" ( and Kabuto was controlling Nagato and aiming to greatly hurt both Bee and Naruto, thus I believe he had definitely evil intenction ) couldn't.
    But Shima was able to find him.

    Quote Quote:
    You believe that Naruto can increase/decrease his defence while Jiraiya couldn't, why?
    The same reason why I don't believe Jiraiya can sense to the extent that Naruto can. Additionally, are you going to say that he lowered his guard when Animal Path charged in and stabbed him? He should've known at that point of the fight to keep his defense up at all times, yet he was still stabbed.

    Quote Quote:
    The fact remains that it isn't a matter of decence Jiraiya breaking Sasuke's sword, it's a matter of offence, Sasuke going for the stab and Jiraiya breaking his weapon in half.
    Or what, Jiraiya doesn't have the super strenght too? Its ok to assume that Jiraiya's Sage Mode isn't the same of Naruto, but to pratically treat it like it was some downrated ability instead of a game winner which is it ( in the manga at least ), I find that quite unbelievable
    To be frank, even though he kicked the crap out of Human Path when he caught him off guard, the second strike he performed on Human Path was caught with 1 hand...additionally, unlike Naruto (who explicitly stopped the charging rhino and tossed it in the air), we don't know if it was Jiraiya or Ma/Pa who got rid of the ram summon, IIRC.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh gee I don't know, a single kick blinded one of the paths, just to name one of Jiraiya's "feats", and the rest wasn't possible thanks to the Rin'negan connection, which I'm discussing with Rikudou.
    Kage Bunshins can all see an opponent at the same time, yet Sasuke/Kimimaro/Neji had no problem dealing with multiple KBs. I'm still not completely impressed with the shared vision, outside of the summons also sharing in it, but I might be misunderstanding the ability. I would think with KB though, since they're all essentially the same person, that they would all see everything (despite possible information overload).

    Quote Quote:
    And now I ask you, what are Sasuke's feats in taijutsu against faster opponents?
    I will tell you:
    -against a blinded and weakened Itachi, he had to use Ninjutsu after Itachi beat him up good
    -against Bee, he was destroyed despite having the Sharingan
    -against the Raikage, I don't even go there
    -Against Danzou he did good, but Danzou wasn't a Taijutsu beast, and had at best the same speed of Sasuke

    So you'll excuse me if I think that, against an opponent like Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Sasuke doesn't stand a chance in Taijutsu and related skills
    Itachi fought with Bee and Naruto at the same time, and never showed problems with Kakashi in taijutsu...it's not exactly a negative feat to be beaten up by Itachi, lol...not to mention that including the shuriken combat, Sasuke actually came out on top.

    Bee is an actual taijutsu specialist with his own style of sword-fighting that we haven't seen replicated. He reacted to Hiraishin twice, and actually stated that outside of A, no one else had dodged the 8-tails attack that he performed on Sasuke. Bee respected Sasuke's abilities.

    Raikage is OP.

    Keep in mind though that even someone with the same speed stat as him (Deidara) quickly decided that close-range combat was a no go. Keep in mind also that a worn Sasuke was able to fight with Kakashi, who is also skilled in taijutsu.

    Jiraiya in SM simply doesn't have the feats that Naruto does in SM, so I can't assign him that level of combat strictly on him having SM. Naruto has shown exceptional sensing ability, strength, and frog katas, while Jiraiya noted that his SM was still incomplete (IIRC), and it's explicitly stated that Naruto's SM > Jiraiya's SM. I actually like Jiraiya and am a little annoyed that Naruto mastered SM that quickly, but thems the breaks, I guess.


    Side note: I actually would've liked to see Itachi vs. Nagato 1v1 (using Pain and not using Pain), because I think Itachi gives him a good fight and possibly wins both, with the using Pain fight being the more difficult one.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  5. #454
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    If you think that Jiraiya would lower his guard against an opponet who is right in front of him... Too much bias.
    Still, as I said before Sasuke has his chances, of course ( I doubt that, except against the actual Naruto, Madara and Tobi Sasuke will have major trouble fighting anyone ), still Taijutsu shouldn't be a chance
    What about against an opponent who can make him think he won? A small and subtle illusion that makes Jiraiya believe he's gain the advantage would be quite possible. Maybe if it was hand to hand, but with his Chidori Blade, it should all him to strike while remaining out of range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Still, if the ability is granted by the rods, it is because it requires a costant stream of chakra, thus, removed the rods, the Rin'negan too should've been removed.
    Very much like Tobi couldn't control the bijuus without it. And without the rods, the Rin'negan was still in Animal Path's eyes
    We didn't see Animal Path's eyes after the rods were removed. And Tobi didn't use the rods to control the Bijuus, only to send them chakra and use as a lease. After he forced the Gobi to stop, he then used his Sharingan to return the Gobi back to it's second version cloak form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Simple, because it isn't simple "learning any jutsu like normal", is istantly learning any jutsu, like Jiraiya said about Nagato:
    he, Nagato, learned at once every jutsu Jiraiya taught him. And the Sharingan does not copy istantly, or rather if the sharingan user hasn't the skill to use the attack, then the sharingan is useless. Take Sasuke, despite his sharingan it required an entire month to learn and perfect the Chidori, along the Lee's speed, which still tired him greatly.
    And it still requires a natural affinity
    All Jiraiya said was that Nagato was able to master every technique taught to him, not that he did it instantly. And the Sharingan does copy a technique instantly. Sasuke copied Lee's technique after seeing it one. Sasuke needed the month training to gain speed equal to Lee without his weights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naruto and Bee hardly put any fight since they were overwhelmed by Nagato, simple as that.
    And Itachi put up a fight because he cut away the connection, and he striked when Nagato was already busy with Naruto and Bee. When you have your hands full with the 2 strongest Jinchuuriki, I doubt you have any chance to fight evenly another Kage-level ninja.
    You're being too unfair to Nagato here, he still didn't had any problem to solo 2 Jinchuuriki which have arguably the same speed ( or even slightly higher ) and much more power than Itachi did.
    Itachi was clever, as usual, and exploited all the opening Nagato left
    Nagato had his hands full with Naruto at first and that didn't prevent him from dealing with Kirabi quickly. The point still remains that Itachi was able to strike fast enough that Nagato couldn't even react to the lost of his other sights and activate his absorption ability in time. He was able to react to Kirabi and then Naruto's actions with his absorption in time.

  6. #455
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lemonadez's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya vs Sasuke

    LOL @ Jiraiya cant sense. The reason why Jiraiya cant sense anymore because he turn off his Barrier after he turn into sage mode.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-3/...apter-375.html <- This is the barrier im talking about, If jiraiya had this the whole time, jiraiya would win the battle even after the another 3 did sneak attack.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-5/...apter-375.html <- Just read what Pain said LOL

    But kishi turn that ability off, To insure jiraiya would die and in order for Naruto to grow stronger.

    U do know that Shima can also detect enemy, But the point here u dont actually have activated all the time (Shima was activating her sensing when she's trying to find out where Pain is.). Just like all Sensor user out there, they don't have it 24/7 Sensing. U can even clearly see it on Karin when she trying to find danzou, she turn off her sensor in order not to be found by Shi. So the moment jiraiya killed those 3 pain, of course they dont have their guard up anymore or Shima sensor.

    That Jiraiya barrier ability is bad ass and wide range if Naruto posses that too and have it turn on all the time. Its like 360 degree sensor LOL.

    Who ever said Sasuke eye is "Mixed" with Itachi eyes, their wrong.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v59/c574/15.html <- Simply explain that his eyes isn't his own eye.

    We now witness Sasuke with his EMS his amterasu change, he now simply dont create it out of nowhere. He simply throw amaterasu LOL.

    Jiraiya start with sage mode -> frog call instant. paralyze and use swamp (render susanoo)
    Last edited by Lemonadez; February 15, 2012 at 10:04 AM.

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