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Thread: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    This is inpired by The_Drunk's thread, but I didn't want to litter it with an off-topic discussion, so here it is. Do you think Sarutobi is a crappy leader? I've always thought that Sarutobi was a bad Hokage. I'm not attacking him for his ethics as he does have a heart of gold and always had good intentions, but he failed on so many occasions. Here are some of his failures:

    1) Failed to win the Second Great Ninja War. You can argue that it isn't really a failure since the result was a draw, but if you don't gain anything out of a war, thats a loss in my book. So in this case, everybody involved was a loser, not just Sarutobi specifically.
    2) Failed to win the Third Great Ninja War.
    3) Failed to notice Danzou's many dirty deeds such as his alliance with Hanzou and implanting himself with the First's DNA and all those sharingan eyes.
    4) Failed to stop Orochimaru and allowed him to run free for decades doing all the crazy shit he does.
    5) Gave up Hyuuga Hizashi's life upon pressure from Kumogakure. You can say it prevented a possible war, but to me, a leader should not bow down another nation. Konoha showed weakness here and the weak will only get bullied. Who knows how many more concessions there were when Konoha was pressured by other nations?!
    6) Failed to reach a peaceful compromise with the Uchiha.
    7) Failed to stop the Kyuubi from wrecking havoc upon Konoha. Sarutobi is no longer Hokage at this time, but he should have a much bigger role in protecting Kushina as he knew all the risks involved.

    In comparison, here are some of his successes:
    1) Trained 3 very strong and successful ninjas in the sannins (even though Orochimaru deflected).
    2) Stopped Orochimaru's attack on Konoha (even though its sort of his fault that Orochimaru is still running around).

    You can argue that a lot of my listings are not really failures, but they were definitely not successes. So at best, he is only an average to mediocre leader. Compared to the First and the Fourth though, Sarutobi is pretty crappy.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 25, 2010 at 04:55 PM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member apathism's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    ... When did Konoha lose the third Ninja War?

    Kage-Baka No Jutsu!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    No, Konoha came out on top in each war, never was in the blink of destruction or suffered very high damage in the Third rule.... It's is very acceptable that he did some errors, it was 50 years of ruling, nothing is perfect at all, but when the Third was in his prime, nor Danzou, nor Madara, nor Hanzou dare to defy him.

    His greatest mistake was sparing Orochimaru, but he loved him, it's is understandable.

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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    He ruled Konoha for a very long life. Making mistakes is expected, but as Tsunade said, he was a wonderful Hokage.

    Seeing how he wants to avoid war I'm sure he was the main contributor of the new ninja system : Chuunin exam instead of total war, which is a huge step toward long term peace actually, I don't know if it's enough for world peace itself (without Akatsuki) but it's a lot.

    I don't know how you can compare with the first and the fourth. We don't know anything about what did Yondaime while he was Hokage. Shodaime brougth indeed peace with the village system and the chakra beasts, but we all knew there were still wars with the other villages shortly after that. He and Nidaime died young.

    Actually 90% of the real disaster is coming from Madara, so we should blame Shodaime to check his death properly (but I won't blame him). Without him, things should be fine (even with Orochimaru, who died anyway).

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    @Skidmore, Danzou did a lot of shady things during his rule, including allying with Hanzo. Madara was also just waiting for an opportunity and he isn't quite 100%. Also, I don't think he was all that feared like you think he is or Kumogakure wouldn't have been able to demand for Hyuga's death so easily.

    @Gatsuga, Yea, I shouldn't have compared him to the Fourth as his rule was very brief, but Shodaime has accomplished a lot more the Third ever did. Even if you don't consider the wars as failures, what has he ever accomplish? He was a failure in two major instances. One being Orochimaru and two being unable to defuse the Uchiha massacre. Thats like the cause of 2/3 of all the troubles in Narutoverse.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 25, 2010 at 07:06 PM.

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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsuga View Post
    He ruled Konoha for a very long life. Making mistakes is expected, but as Tsunade said, he was a wonderful Hokage.

    Seeing how he wants to avoid war I'm sure he was the main contributor of the new ninja system : Chuunin exam instead of total war, which is a huge step toward long term peace actually, I don't know if it's enough for world peace itself (without Akatsuki) but it's a lot.

    I don't know how you can compare with the first and the fourth. We don't know anything about what did Yondaime while he was Hokage. Shodaime brougth indeed peace with the village system and the chakra beasts, but we all knew there were still wars with the other villages shortly after that. He and Nidaime died young.

    Actually 90% of the real disaster is coming from Madara, so we should blame Shodaime to check his death properly (but I won't blame him). Without him, things should be fine (even with Orochimaru, who died anyway).
    If i remember correctly,Tobirama was the one who invented the Academy and the Chuunin Exams,so i guess that does not really count.

    As for me,i always had this thought that Hiruzen failed a lot,especially in Orochimaru's case.Sarutobi may have been a great person or rather a great father for the whole village and a good fighter,but he was a terrible ninja.Just like Itachi,he could not kill his emotions to do the "right" thing,like killing Orochimaru that time and now look what we've got because of Orochimaru.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Maybe I just mixing things, I always looked for Sarutobi as being insanely powerfull in his prime, even if we never saw him in action, the same hype around Yondaime.

    And If I look this way it would be more dictatorship than great leadership.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity elitefox's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsuga View Post
    He ruled Konoha for a very long life. Making mistakes is expected, but as Tsunade said, he was a wonderful Hokage.

    Seeing how he wants to avoid war I'm sure he was the main contributor of the new ninja system : Chuunin exam instead of total war, which is a huge step toward long term peace actually, I don't know if it's enough for world peace itself (without Akatsuki) but it's a lot.

    I don't know how you can compare with the first and the fourth. We don't know anything about what did Yondaime while he was Hokage. Shodaime brougth indeed peace with the village system and the chakra beasts, but we all knew there were still wars with the other villages shortly after that. He and Nidaime died young.

    Actually 90% of the real disaster is coming from Madara, so we should blame Shodaime to check his death properly (but I won't blame him). Without him, things should be fine (even with Orochimaru, who died anyway).
    Well lol, yeah I agree... humans makes mistake even if he is considered as god of shinobi, he is still human. But what makes him a great ruler is what he have done more than the mistakes he have.

    mistake is in human nature but that doesn't mean he is not a great leader.
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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    love and war are the same,you win some you lose some.a sign of a great leader is how you handle your domestic policy during times of war.sarutobi kept his village together and obviously the village was happy with him.or else there would have been more like oro,sometimes you have to bend to stop from breaking.war is tricky and being a leader you have to make harsh decisions...sarutobi was a good hokage.but, since the hokage summit i have been thinking about his awareness to deception.i mean he sat right next to oro as the kazekage during the chunnin exams but didn't notice a thing until it was to late.also ,if kisame is right about madara being the mizukage than sarutobi missed that one too.good domestic hokage with a terrible foreign policy,kinda like bill clinton,lol.....

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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    love and war are the same,you win some you lose some.a sign of a great leader is how you handle your domestic policy during times of war.sarutobi kept his village together and obviously the village was happy with him.or else there would have been more like oro,sometimes you have to bend to stop from breaking.war is tricky and being a leader you have to make harsh decisions...sarutobi was a good hokage.but, since the hokage summit i have been thinking about his awareness to deception.i mean he sat right next to oro as the kazekage during the chunnin exams but didn't notice a thing until it was to late.also ,if kisame is right about madara being the mizukage than sarutobi missed that one too.good domestic hokage with a terrible foreign policy,kinda like bill clinton,lol.....
    It's hard to blame Sarutobi when all the jounins didn't notice that the sound jounin were Orochimaru while he was almost just like himself during the Chuunin exam.

    Besides Oro was his pupil and probably his equal or more, if there is someone who can deceive Sarutobi, he is the best candidate.

    When was it said that Nidaime created the Chuunin exam ?

    Besides, for the plot, we only saw his mistakes, yet he lived for a very long time and Konoha is still standing and well despite the events. (let's keep in mind that he was not supposed to bring world peace to the world like Naruto)

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    You can also say that Yondaime also did a huge mistake by letting Kyuubi alive (thus bringing Pain and his wanton destruction to Konoha) or by letting his students die.

    What about Tsunade, who was pushed around by the council. Or who didn't even went to fight Nagato when he arrived in town. In fact, people thought her to be the worst leader from all five.

    The point is: people make mistakes, or suffer some bad crap during their reign as Kages. Why do we see more of those mistakes with Hiruzen? Because he ruled exactly during the time our story rolls.

    Kishimoto is building up stuff, tension and plot. Why the hell are you people still not getting this whenever you talk about something story-related? This is not Shakespeare, which even he has lots of inconsistency.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member empeethree's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Most the Great Shinobi War, wasn't started by Konoha, most of the time, they're the one who is fighting to end the war. How come you think they lose if they successfully ended the war favoring them in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    1) Failed to win the Second Great Ninja War. You can argue that it isn't really a failure since the result was a draw, but if you don't gain anything out of a war, thats a loss in my book. So in this case, everybody involved was a loser, not just Sarutobi specifically.
    This was the time when Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru was named
    as Sannin, and also during this time, Sakumo Hatake was named as Konoha White Fang too. Their forces was renowned all over the world of shinobi by the display of brilliance in combat of their armed forces. Having this heroes made Konohagakure more reliable and stand out country among the others thus making their recovery faster than the others.
    Besides that, the war is about the expansion of land, Konohagakure just did was to stop the enemy forces from taking their boundaries, until those included on the war was exhausted, the end of the 2nd Great Shinbobi war was confirmed, in favor of Konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    2) Failed to win the Third Great Ninja War.
    They destroyed the Kannabi Bridge to favor them in this war, they successfully ended the war in their favor, how come you think they lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    3) Failed to notice Danzou's many dirty deeds such as his alliance with Hanzou and implanting himself with the First's DNA and all those sharingan eyes.
    All Danzou did was for the sake of Konoha, as his rival and team mates, Sarutobi Hiruzen knew Danzou's personalities, alliance with Hanzou has a purpose, do you think Hanzo will allow Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade to live? That's so rare on their era.
    You might be right about those experiments, but was the benefits for him alone?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    4) Failed to stop Orochimaru and allowed him to run free for decades doing all the crazy shit he does.
    Will of Fire. Its really hard for a teacher to recognized his precious student as an evil one. Just like how Naruto is striving to take back Sasuke at all cost. He didn't failed to stop Orochimaru, he chose not to stop Orochimaru, and let him go.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    5) Gave up Hyuuga Hizashi's life upon pressure from Kumogakure. You can say it prevented a possible war, but to me, a leader should not bow down another nation. Konoha showed weakness here and the weak will only get bullied. Who knows how many more concessions there were when Konoha was pressured by other nations?!
    He didn't gave up Hyuuga Hizashi's life, Hizashi chose to die and be free and prove to the Hyuuga clan that it's not Destiny who controls human life, but you are free to choose and create your own destiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    6) Failed to reach a peaceful compromise with the Uchiha.
    Resulted to Uchiha Itachi's massacre of the Uchiha clan, helped by Tobi?
    If helped by Tobi, does that means Danzou knows it?

    This problem was passed down from generation to generation, started from Senju Hashirama, Senju Tobirama, Sarutobi Hiruzen, Namikaze Minato and Sarutobi Hiruzen again.

    This is the most complicated i think.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    7) Failed to stop the Kyuubi from wrecking havoc upon Konoha. Sarutobi is no longer Hokage at this time, but he should have a much bigger role in protecting Kushina as he knew all the risks involved.
    Wew, a chakra monster? no way he failed there... but on Kushina's part let's say, yeah.. he failed there.. he even said to himself... "was that not enough to secure Kushina?" or something like that.... kindly review the latest chapter on 503 if that was really it.
    Last edited by empeethree; July 27, 2010 at 05:04 AM. Reason: post mistake?
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    You can also say that Yondaime also did a huge mistake by letting Kyuubi alive (thus bringing Pain and his wanton destruction to Konoha) or by letting his students die.

    What about Tsunade, who was pushed around by the council. Or who didn't even went to fight Nagato when he arrived in town. In fact, people thought her to be the worst leader from all five.

    The point is: people make mistakes, or suffer some bad crap during their reign as Kages. Why do we see more of those mistakes with Hiruzen? Because he ruled exactly during the time our story rolls.

    Kishimoto is building up stuff, tension and plot. Why the hell are you people still not getting this whenever you talk about something story-related? This is not Shakespeare, which even he has lots of inconsistency.
    I think you are right about the mistakes etc but your examples don't fit in my opinion :

    In the last chapter it was stated that we can't kill Kyuubi. That it would come back one way or another. So it's hard to blame Yondaime. Same about the students, besides Obito we don't know what happened to Rin. And they are not supposed to be his students forever, but fully ninjas.

    Tsunade was right to not fight Nagato, it would be a waste, the best she can do was her speciality : mass healing.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner zhakmie's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    I think the 3rd is not a crappy leader. The fact that the elders let him take over after the 4th died is enough proof. Danzou could object reinstating him as the hokage siting the mistakes you posted, but no one objected.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity elitefox's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    You can also say that Yondaime also did a huge mistake by letting Kyuubi alive (thus bringing Pain and his wanton destruction to Konoha) or by letting his students die.

    What about Tsunade, who was pushed around by the council. Or who didn't even went to fight Nagato when he arrived in town. In fact, people thought her to be the worst leader from all five.

    The point is: people make mistakes, or suffer some bad crap during their reign as Kages. Why do we see more of those mistakes with Hiruzen? Because he ruled exactly during the time our story rolls.

    Kishimoto is building up stuff, tension and plot. Why the hell are you people still not getting this whenever you talk about something story-related? This is not Shakespeare, which even he has lots of inconsistency.
    lol, he can only seal half of the kyubi with his current state.
    Tsunade was pushed around, but she fought back too since the elders are closer to daimyo. she might not want them to be an enemy and let some request pass.
    Soldier first before the king, I think it is the golden rule. she might be the worst ruler
    No need to get so mad, watch your heart

    one thing for sure, if everything is perfect then there wouldn't be naruto
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