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Thread: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Funny how sarutobi is considered a legend not only in konoha but also among the 5 nations though.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Askia32's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Can you link the page where it says that please?
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ceasar's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Sarutobi in my opinion has sat back and watched too many people die and not done enough until he was trapped in a cube and couldn't leave. I cannot beleive he was within sight of minato and couldn't save him he knew the technique why didn't he have the foresight to use it. He had been hokage for awhile he had been through war twice he has too be able to perform better than what I have seen.
    He isn't crappy but he leans himself too much to being passive and is not active enough in things.
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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    ^ what are you talking about? Sarutobi did not have a space time jutsu to follow minato around. Remember that after minato summoned bunta to crush the fox he used a time space jutsu to take the fox a considerable distance away from the village. By the time hiruzen got there kushina's and minato's seal already made it so that no one could come in. Hiruzen was never in a position where he could do anything much. Worth noting, he did held back the fox with a few other shinobi, a man his age pulling that is quite an accomplishment.

  5. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    @kkck Again, its never a good policy to make concessions to a bully. If they can get away with it once, they'll do it again. Call their bluff. They might not be as willing to wage a war as you think, but we'll never know.

    As far as the Uchiha massacre goes, Hiruzen has never met with the Uchihas. The truce fell through in a meeting between Hiruzen, Danzou, and the elders. Its not entirely clear on what happened here, but it seems to me like he stood by as Danzou and elders executed the mission.

    A lot of ninjas are said to be legends, but it has more to do with power than leadership skills. Itachi, the sanins, the 3rd Kazekage, chiyo, etc. are all said to be legends by somebody in the manga.

  6. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Askia32's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Hiru did comment on how Minato described Shinigami to him, and how Minato wished Naruto be viewed as a hero of the village. We haven't seen him mention his wish, other than him saying he had confidence in Naruto, though Hiru may have interpreted it the way he just did.

    Hiru allowed it spread because he didn't know Naruto would be hated. When he realized that, he made it taboo. What Hiru did, he didn't do for the lulz. He must have had a reason for doing it. He probably was waiting for the right time to tell Naruto.
    And thats part of my problem with Hiruzen. It seems like his philosophy is like, sit and wait and everything will work out. If it doesn't, than adjust. So from all the different times we have seen this in his decision making, I highly doubt he planned to tell Naruto. I think if Naruto failed to become a ninja, and just kept doing pranks for another year or so, than I think The third might have stepped in.
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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Maybe Hiru was waiting for Naruto to mature and grow into his own. By letting Naruto go on his own, Hiru gave Naruto a chance to grow and find out stuff on his own. Naruto's become a good character and person. Hiru's philosophy is to try the most peaceful way as possible as he tried to negotiate with Uchiha and let Hyuuga sacrifice one of their own. I think Oro's the only one he's sat and waited with in vain.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Askia32 View Post
    And thats part of my problem with Hiruzen. It seems like his philosophy is like, sit and wait and everything will work out. If it doesn't, than adjust. So from all the different times we have seen this in his decision making, I highly doubt he planned to tell Naruto. I think if Naruto failed to become a ninja, and just kept doing pranks for another year or so, than I think The third might have stepped in.
    So hiruzen should be accountable for things out of his control? Hiruzen can't force the villagers to love naruto, he can't force the uchiha to accept a truce, he can't force orochimaru to become the ninja he wanted and he certainly could not force naruto into being a better ninja. How could he? He is a hokage, not god lol.

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  10. #39
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    It is amazing how after a couple of chapters everybody has written off Hiruzen as a bad leader and Minato as a Kamikaze...wow
    Hiruzen lead Konoha through at least the third great ninja war as well as many other attacks on Konoha in his 70+ year lifespan. People are wondering why didn't he tell Naruto about his parents but if you look at the entire story never even once Naruto asks or wonders about his parents. Like he told Kushina he never really hated his parents, since they weren't around he didn't think about it much.
    Also as much as Hiruzen wanted to talk to Naruto one on one about his parents, Konoha was always in danger while Naruto was growing up: Hinata's kidnapping attempt, Uchiha massacre, etc....
    I think Hiruzen was a good Hokage not only because all his life he was able to protect Konoha but by the end of his life even Oro had commented how an era of peace had been established. Although the relatively peaceful era was not established by Hiruzen alone I think he contributed a lot.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Aikidoka's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    I think if you want to look at the things that went bad during his 'term', then you have to look at all the things that went well during his term as well. Considering that the Hyuuga incident, the Uchiha Massacre, and Orochimaru were the only major negative things to come out of his rule that we know of, I'd say he did a pretty good job. Think of all the other bad things that could've happened. At least the Konoha people are well off.

  13. #41
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Ok, I'm not going to hold the wars against him, since all parties involved were losers.
    Probably, because they lose countless shinobies. But again, Konoha didn't lose, they actually win it. Just review what I said about their motive on joining the great wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    He did fail to stand up to Kumogakure in the Hyuga fiasco though. Hizashi's life was given up because if it wasn't him, it would of been Hiashi. Somebody had to die. Besides, the decision never should have been theirs to make. Kumogakure was the one that broke the treaty with their assassination attempt. Instead of pursuing retribution, Hiruzen concedes the life of one his most powerful fighter. That is weakness.
    Do you know what happen there? It was a frame up. Hiashi was framed up, so that they could get his byakugan eyes, and if you read the manga again on that part, when Hiashi was telling what happen in the past to Neji, the peace treaty of Konoha and Kumo is very new and they're just recovering from the previous war. Lets give a little scenario of it.

    Hiruzen didn't concede and fight for the rights of this one man.

    Kumogakure and Konohagakure will start a new war, Kumogakure have the highest chance to win that war since they're not major participant from the previous war or if they lost to Konoha, they're not that down even if the got attacked by other ninja village they can still recover unlike Konoha who's just recovering, attacked by one of the 5 great shinobi nation's hidden village, and possibly getting attacked by another small villages. The destruction of their hidden village is sure. Hiruzen is thinking about it and even the Elders of Hyuuga's knows about it and even Hizashi. For the sake of his son Neji. He chose to die.

    You may think he's a crappy leader because of it, but for those who think about the whole scenario and the deep details of whats happening on that time. Hiruzen is a wise and definitely a great leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Hiruzen spared Orochimaru out of love, but that does not excuse him. Orochimaru killed more people and did more sick things than other character in the story!
    You might be right about this, but there's a saying that..

    LOVE is BLIND... So, if its about leadership as a whole.. he's great.. but specifically leading Orochimaru? He's a failure...
    Failure to Orochimaru is not even half of that success he made..

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    I guess I'm alone on this one. Hiruzen was just too timid for my liking. He never took a stand on anything. He gets pushed around by Kumogakure, the Konoha Elders, and even his student Orochimaru. Good guy, but just a bad leader.
    You're absolutely right about that. Alone.
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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member katon_style's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    the problem of sarutobi looking weak is because he was picked in a fight very early in the first series against oro and no one should forget that this fight was years ago kishi's ideas and plans probably must have been a little different then.even oro looked so damm weak if we compare with himselfe in the battle vs naruto in shippuden.So people don't blame sarutobi for his weakling points but blame all this years of airing naruto.

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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Only mistake I see is letting Oro get away way back when he found out about his forbidden experiments.

    Konoha came out on top in wars. Sarutobi was in support of peace with Uchiha and was against the slaughter. no other hokage has done anything to stop Danzou. Danzou would find a way to be corrupt no matter what...
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  16. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Askia32's Avatar
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    So hiruzen should be accountable for things out of his control? Hiruzen can't force the villagers to love naruto, he can't force the uchiha to accept a truce, he can't force orochimaru to become the ninja he wanted and he certainly could not force naruto into being a better ninja. How could he? He is a hokage, not god lol.
    Why does it have to be all or nothing?

    1. Hiruzen could of told the 2 two ninja with him to tell nothing about Naruto being the jinchuuriki instead of waiting till the whole village knew about it. Problem solved because he nipped it in the bud.

    2. I never brought up the Uchiha truce. That is still heavily in the dark so I won't comment.

    3. Oro had issues, I don't fault the Third for that, but he could of killed Oro when he had the chance and many lives would have been spared including his own. SenninSage put it really well;
    Spoiler show


    4. He could of helped Naruto as a ninja. I doubt any "force" was needed since the Uzumaki's goal was to be the Hokage.

    Hiruzen doesn't need to be taken to the random extreme of being a "god", just not as passive.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Maybe Hiru was waiting for Naruto to mature and grow into his own. By letting Naruto go on his own, Hiru gave Naruto a chance to grow and find out stuff on his own. Naruto's become a good character and person. Hiru's philosophy is to try the most peaceful way as possible as he tried to negotiate with Uchiha and let Hyuuga sacrifice one of their own. I think Oro's the only one he's sat and waited with in vain.
    The argument is headed to mainly speculation, lets agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Askia32; August 01, 2010 at 05:04 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  17. #45
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
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    Re: Is Hiruzen Sarutobi a crappy leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Askia32 View Post
    Why does it have to be all or nothing?

    1. Hiruzen could of told the 2 two ninja with him to tell nothing about Naruto being the jinchuuriki instead of waiting till the whole village knew about it. Problem solved because he nipped it in the bud.

    3. Oro had issues, I don't fault the Third for that, but he could of killed Oro when he had the chance and many lives would have been spared including his own. SenninSage put it really well;

    4. He could of helped Naruto as a ninja. I doubt any "force" was needed since the Uzumaki's goal was to be the Hokage.

    Hiruzen doesn't need to be taken to the random extreme of being a "god", just not as passive.
    1. Naruto's status as a jinchuuriki is not something that could or should have been kept from the village. The possession of the Kyuubi is something that keeps balance of the nations. The whereabouts of the Kyuubi is thus a priority for the ninja of the village. Plus, with the village just rampaging, Sandaime would have needed to explain what happened to the beast.

    Sandaime did the best he could for little Naruto in the situation: make it so no one mentioned that he was the host of the Kyuubi to him or any of his peers. That way, Naruto could grow up without knowledge of the monster inside him, and the children of the village would not see him as a monster either.

    Beyond that, there was nothing that Hiruzen could do for Naruto in this regard. Jinchuuriki have been hated and scorned by others in all of the villages as we have learned throughout the manga, and so Konoha reacting this way to Naruto, especially after living through that attack, is not something surprising. Sandaime couldn't force the villagers to accept Naruto, but he at least kept them from openly talking about it to him.

    3. This is, in my opinion, the only significant mistake Hiruzen made during his reign, but he isn't a bad leader for this. He was just very sentimental at the moment and had a lapse of judgment. I think it makes his character more endearing that he cared so much for one of his students.

    You also have to realize that this is the first time Sarutobi was faced with the reality of his beloved student. If Naruto was in the same situation with Sasuke, I doubt Naruto would have killed him either. There's a shock factor here as well as emotional attachment. I'm not saying that it was in hindsight the right decision, but it is an understandable decision.

    There's no way Sandaime could have known at that moment what Orochimaru was capable of doing in the future, and it is not fair to blame someone for atrocities of the future. Hindsight is always 20/20.

    4. Sandaime did help Naruto as a ninja by assigning him to the team that he did with Kakashi. Before Naruto became a genin, Naruto was constantly acting out and not showing interest in his studies. Sandaime kept him from being punished severely and watched over him even if it was somewhat from a distance. He even talked with Iruka, Naruto's instructor, helping him come to terms with his feelings about Naruto and ultimately setting up Naruto's first close relationship.

    Then, when Naruto became a genin, he set him up with Kakashi. After this, well, Sandaime did not live too much longer, but we have at least seen that he had some relationship with Naruto and that Naruto thought well of him. If Naruto thought well of him, I don't really see a reason for any of us not to do the same.

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