Aizen (without Hougyoku enhancements)
Urahaa, Yoruichi, and Isshin
This just came to mind when i wondered what would have happened if the three of them got to the fight before aizen went god mode.
aizen has access to KS and all his other shinigami abilities, we can assume urahara and yoruichi are under hypnosis but issin is not so the fight will start this way. and everyone else can use any abilities shown.
if aizen used KS perfectly i think he could hold up a good fight, and maybe he could even get issin under hypnosis. he also has incredible speed, hado 90, and OHKO sword strikes.
but if he gets hit with urahras hodo 91 or wrist reaitsu bombs. any hit from yoruichi and even more so a shunkou punch. or a getsuga from issin, hes finished.
Edit: thanks to who ever put the poll there! I forgot all about it.
Last edited by conn-man; August 01, 2010 at 12:13 PM.
Well, considering that Aizen himself states that he was not able to figure out Kisuke's thought-process, I feel that if Kisuke coordinated attacks with Yoruichi and Isshin, then they'd probably be able to beat him.
And even if Aizen used his KS, then Kisuke would have already devised a plan to counter it (portable Gigai, etc).
Plus, it's 3-on-one, and combined, I'd have to say that the three of them are at least as powerful as the Head Captain.
Can Urahara or Yoruichi attack Aizen while Aizen is fighting Isshin? Aizen can trick them into attacking Isshin. It will be Aizen vs Isshin and then if Aizen wins, Aizen vs Urahara and Yoruichi. Isshin has a pretty good chance to defeat Aizen without KS and if Aizen can't make short work of Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi has a pretty good chance to defeat Aizen in his weakened state.
Well if they can use only what they've shown so far, the three of them stand a good chance if Isshin is the only one seeing things as they are. If Isshin can overpower Aizen, Urahara could probably strap him on with the cuffs, ending the fight. IMO, Aizen's KS isn't as much of a threat as we originally thought it was, so I'm not sure if he can manipulate the illusions for Yoru and Urahara while fending off Isshin.
In theory though, if they weren't limited with things shown so far, I'd go with Aizen. He has a bankai, meaning that he can release his shikai without verbal commands, which would make it easier to get Isshin under KS, ending the fight.
They all have bankais but so does Aizen, and if it's more useful than his shikai, as it's normal to suspect it is, I don't think the good guys stand much of a chance.
Given what we saw, I could see aizen defeating urahara and yoruichi but not if they are fighting alongside ishin. Ishin alone showed he had the skill to match aizen, I don't think aizen will have the upperhand here.
So long as Aizen has KS, I can see it very plausible that he would win against those 3.
For people saying that Aizen can just easily put Isshin under KS... I doubt that he could in the middle of the fight, otherwise why didn't he actually do it when he fought isshin in the manga? Perhaps even though, we've seen that others who have attained Bankai don't really need to use the verbal commands to active their Shikai, it appears that every time Aizen has put someone under complete hypnosis... he has had to do his little "ritual" and hold his sword up etc. Maybe Aizen can active and "manipulate" the illusions or the things that he wants his enemies to see, once they have already been put on complete hypnosis, without Aizen having to say any commands; however, when he's hypnotizing his enemy for the first time... he has to do the ritual first. That's how it seems to work anyway, judging from what we've seen from the manga.
Oh, and we even know now that you can break the complete hypnosis by touching Aizen's zanpakuto. Not that that can be an easy task...but still, it is useful information about Aizen's Zanpakuto that we got in the last chapter. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/414/13/
It is very possible that Urahara had actually thought of something so that he could do something to KS Aizen. Kisuke always plans for most scenarios and even plans for the worst possible outcomes, and even during a fight he's still planning. That was said in the manga. (I can link the manga pages for that if you really want....)
Now, I'm not saying Urahara would necessary win, specially not easily... but I don't think he would get "owned." Further, perhaps part of his plan was to wear Aizen out fighting Isshin first, then hide with his Gigai, trap him, and then get him with his reiatsu sealing technique. Then since Isshin was not under KS, he could also verify Aizen's conditions etc.
Which brings to the key to this match: Isshin not being under KS. That would be the biggest advantage to the "outcast" team here VS Aizen. Even Unohana said that they needed Ichigo because he wasn't under KS.
If Isshin was under KS, it may have been different;however, because I believe Kisuke must have had some sort of plan, but most importantly... because Isshin was not under KS(And he even pushed Aizen to his limits in a sealed sword fight)... I can see the combination of Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin pulling off a win here.
Last edited by Jackk; July 31, 2010 at 01:35 PM.
I guess I could be the people who said that Aizen could trap Isshin in KS relatively easy. The thing is, I was speaking of a realistic scenario where Aizen would use his powers to the max and Captains don't try and hide their powers for plot reasons, enemies don't explain their weaknesses and abilities nor do people try and toy with their opponents in a life and death/destiny of the world situations, stuff like that.
In theory, you just have to see him release to be under hypnosis. In theory, he has full control over your five senses. Now, the reason why the entire winter war lasted longer than a few seconds and Gotei 13 isn't reliving Silent Hill series in their heads, is that a) Aizen's shikai doesn't exactly work like he said it does and has some sort of glitch or a prerequisite or b) Kubo just sucks at realism and making sense.
I personally like to think that option a) is the case here, and so I would bet on the trio, but unfortunately, I suspect that option b) is more likely and that just the way there is a huge amount of plotkai and senseless decisions and events in the manga, the same way Aizen isn't acting like a sensible being and isn't doing what we expect from such a being.
Yeah but if we go that route about the manga not playing how we want or how we "think" is logical etc... then we'll also have to question: why didn't Tousen go for Kenpachi's head instead of toying with him when Tousen had him inside his Bankai back in SS? Why didn't Shinji go Shikai + Mask, instead of just shikai and only hitting Aizen in the shoulder, why didn't Shinji go straight for Aizen's head before Aizen could figure out what was going on.. ? why didn't Barragan just finish Soifon quickly with respira when he could... ? the list can go on and on...
Also, in theory... Yamamoto could have gone Bankai and nuked FK and killed Aizen with it... if you want to go there. There are different ways that the manga could have gone, but Kubo went the way he did. It's his manga after all... and his characters behave the way Kubo wants them to behave and act. And the Zanpakuto abilities of his characters work the way he wants them to work.
I think we must use things from the manga for these discussions, not "what if" such and such happened or what we think should have happened instead... well particularly in this case, it seems that KS's shikai is not perfect... and it shouldn't be, it's just a shikai... granted a very "hax" shikai. I still think he must put his opponents on complete hypnosis using the "ritual" first, THEN Aizen can manipulate the illusions and make his enemies see whatever he wants... without Aizen having to use any "commands." Additionally, we now also know that you can also break the complete Hypnosis from KS if you touch the sword, according to Gin. This makes KS a little more "realistic" in my opinion. Otherwise, what's the point of KS being "perfect" and allowing Aizen to put everyone in complete hypnosis in a second? (without rituals etc.)
Also, the fact that he had to gather the Vice Captains so that they can witness the ritual for KS, is also indication that he must first do the "ritual" to get them under complete hypnosis.
Aizen seemed to get Barragan under KS rather quickly but Aizen still had to show his KS to Barragan and "hold it up" so he could see it for a moment, and later Aizen says" "Scatter, Kyoka Suigetsu" too.
It would be very hard to do that(hold his KS up for a few moments to show it to Isshin, for the ritual etc.) in the middle of the fight with Isshin to get him under KS, specially since Isshin kept pressuring him... which is why I think Aizen didn't use KS on Isshin in the manga. Aizen just didn't get a chance to put Isshin in complete hypnosis. Not because of some "plotkai." in my opinion....
Well that would be the reason why I would be voting for the trio, as I stated.
If you look around the forums though, you will quickly realise that when comparing characters who never fought and their respective abilities, people tend to humanise those abilities, so to speak. In these fights rarely do we respect the fact that characters in shounen are somewhat illogical or impractical and often senseless - rather it's a clash of pure abilities, ridden of the usually idiotic character behind it.
I simply gave the more common version found around here, as opposed to the WWKD one (what would Kubo do).
I never took Aizen's KS to be something that is ritualistic in nature, but I guess I could be wrong. Though both you and I would be working on speculations here.
I'll respond to the examples you've given simply for argument's sake, since we ultimately seem to agree who would win this.
Gathering of Gotei 13 which Aizen orchestrated was, in my opinion, meant simply to gather them all in one place so they could be hypnotised together at once, without the need to go get everyone individually. The clash with Baraggan didn't seem to me to require any sort of ritual, he simply asked him to look at the sword, which when you think of it, would be quite an effortless shortcut to putting him under hypnosis and would probably ensure for Bara to look at the thing for a moment. I doubt that this little bluff was the only hope for Aizen there and that he would come there hoping the guy would actually fall for the little trick.
Characters often release their shikai with a command, even though they are known to be able to do so without it. I'm guessing it's easier that way, or they do it for the sake of theatrics, but whatever the reason, manga hasn't really singled out Aizen's shikai in a way that we would believe that he has to release it with a command and do a mini ritual when he charms someone. It is perfectly arguable that he could just flash the sword without a word and if you were looking at the moment, you're in for it. He simply doesn't. Just like many characters don't do things we know they're capable of.
actually Aizen will simply make Urahara and Yoruichi deal with Isshin while he himself deals with Coke and Popcorn lol. I mean, seriously people, have you leaarned nothing from Aizen vs Vizards and Gotei. all this time the greatest powerhouses in universe were rapestomping poor Momo. mypoint is that this is not the ichigo-like idiot who always charges head-on. he will make Yoruichi and Urahara take out Isshin (maybe he will even help them out) and then fight each other. after they sort it out Aizen takes out a tired winner. that's it. I think you can close the thread conn-man
also notice: Aizen never used hypnosis in his fight against trio! i don't know why... the most logical explanation would be that the evolution he was undergoing kept him from utilizing his full potential, but that doesn't matter much. what matters is that he didn't use KS, otherwise you really think they would stand more chance than Hallibel?
Last edited by AlB; August 23, 2010 at 04:02 PM.