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Thread: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    I see and am tired of many of the threads in here that are nitpicking on some small stuff that indeed, are plot flaws in the manga. I never understood since when Naruto was analyzed like a valuable piece of literature and not as a manga for kids that like violence.

    Of course there are plotholes, of course there are inconsistencies, because this is not supposed to be a tight and fully understandable novel. You guys are comparing chess with bowling, absinthe with beer, Citizen Kane with Rambo.

    For example, one recent problem around us, Naruto fans, was pointed towards the incapability of Hiruzen as a Hokage and as a mentor for Naruto. Well, I will tell you why he is incapable:
    - He didn't stop de Kyuubi because, otherwise, all the point THE MANGA would have been pointless.
    - He hasn't trained Naruto because, again, it's a plot flaw that was the premise for the Naruto character. How are we supposed to feel sad for the main character if he would have been raised by the village leader himself?
    - He wasn't able to do anything with the Uchiha because, again, that's one of the major plot points. Same with Orochimaru.

    There are more other subjects regarding this. People complain about Naruto not being the main character anymore, because Sasuke has a bit more panel than usual, about Kishimoto being sexist because 1 in 10 women in the manga has big breasts, about Madara not using his MS, about Nagato not reviving Yahiko (what's the point of his backstory then? ) and so on and so forth.

    What is even more funny is that people who try to put some deeper meaning to the plot and characters of Naruto don't even go through the end. For example, the side that claims that Naruto is a sexist manga, they only state that because there are no "kick ass" women, despite the fact that rather a big number of 1 women were kick ass in real life regarding any sorts of fighting. Or those that say how greatly developed Sasuke is, disregarding that he is a powerhorse with the personality of a brick.


    That's why I said our mangaka is not a Shakespeare, or Dostoevsky. He can't fit everything right, and he doesn't want to. People need to remove their continuous idea that this is some sort of book that requires much intelligence for understanding.

    Stop nitpicking, because the manga is flawed from point one. The whole deal about the ninjas - that's just a premise for the author to use magic powers. You can change the class and it's the same deal: pirate, alchemist, magician, psychic. There's nothing that even resembles a ninja's life in this manga (with very vague exceptions), so you're obviously analyzing the wrong art-piece.

    If you have a problem with the amount of powers Naruto has, I have no problems. But don't accuse Kishimoto of bad writing because he's not creating a vast masterpiece in terms of storytelling.

    edit: In case you are wondering, this thread is about discussing the over-focus we recently have regarding Naruto. How there is no real chapter that no is actually going to rant about. Do you agree with me or I'm the only user in here that isn't a literature critic?

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    I applaud you. Everything you wrote is correct in my eyes. But this won´t stop people from theoretizing, otherwise this would be very boring forum for them.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DementedKirby's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Well, Naruto is an amazing work. It is. For Kishimoto to be able to do as well as he has with a continued series is amazing. The fact that only hardcore fans nitpick about subtle (and excusable) flaws is testament to how adamant people are when reading something on the brink of adoration. Personally, I have found no plot holes whatsoever. Honestly. And I've read through the whole series dozens of times (when I find the time) just so I can be amazed at how details in chapters hundreds of chapters apart are linked together with some serious skill. The fact that Kishimoto doesn't explain every grain of action in the series doesn't mean there are plot holes. Why does he even have to explain why the Third didn't train Naruto? It can very well be said that he simply didn't have the time. Why should he explain in further detail the decision to eliminate the Uchiha clan? I found that he had already said enough on the subject. If he, as an author, didn't leave room for his readers to wonder or speculate, then he's not doing a good job. Some doors need to be locked in the present in order to be amazed when they're open in the future.

    What did Itachi give Naruto? Does Madara have the Rin'negan? What did Kabuto summon to freak out Madara? Those aren't going to become future plot holes. Those are questions that Kishimoto leaves behind so that he can explain later on with twists and turns that keep you guessing. That's his style and it's amazing. Linear plots are incredibly boring. But wondering what's going on until you finally realize what's really happening is what makes Naruto an amazing manga. It's how Oscar Wilde once said: "This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last."

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity elitefox's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Quote Originally Posted by DementedKirby View Post
    Well, Naruto is an amazing work. It is. For Kishimoto to be able to do as well as he has with a continued series is amazing. The fact that only hardcore fans nitpick about subtle (and excusable) flaws is testament to how adamant people are when reading something on the brink of adoration. Personally, I have found no plot holes whatsoever. Honestly. And I've read through the whole series dozens of times (when I find the time) just so I can be amazed at how details in chapters hundreds of chapters apart are linked together with some serious skill. The fact that Kishimoto doesn't explain every grain of action in the series doesn't mean there are plot holes. Why does he even have to explain why the Third didn't train Naruto? It can very well be said that he simply didn't have the time. Why should he explain in further detail the decision to eliminate the Uchiha clan? I found that he had already said enough on the subject. If he, as an author, didn't leave room for his readers to wonder or speculate, then he's not doing a good job. Some doors need to be locked in the present in order to be amazed when they're open in the future.

    What did Itachi give Naruto? Does Madara have the Rin'negan? What did Kabuto summon to freak out Madara? Those aren't going to become future plot holes. Those are questions that Kishimoto leaves behind so that he can explain later on with twists and turns that keep you guessing. That's his style and it's amazing. Linear plots are incredibly boring. But wondering what's going on until you finally realize what's really happening is what makes Naruto an amazing manga. It's how Oscar Wilde once said: "This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last."
    lol, those aren't example of plot holes

    i.e.
    Sasuke converting hatred to chakra is one.

    if Naruto can convert love to chakra then it will be even

    And no one can say that this is a plot hole.
    CLEANED

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    Artists of MH 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shinsengumi's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    i thank you for starting this discussion and i agree with you completely but still i shall say those nitpicking threads can be quite fun sometimes . i mean , what else there is for hardcore fans to discuss about ?
    the whole purpose here is --> " im a naruto fan and so are you .i think and fantasize on it so much and so are you ,lets just share them "
    you see , nitpickers nitpick till the end and its still good for the sake of discussion unless they are on the level of trolling

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Nice thread...but others have said it...fans discuss these things, and tend to go deeper sometimes...but I don't think one can tell if the deep meanings sometimes are actually there or not...

    One word which I don't agree with when discussing naruto is plot-hole, or bad writing...most of these discussion come from people just complaining about the developments anyway...

    Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky that true...I like Kishimoto more than Dostoevsky...but I'm not denying the latter's great contribution to literature...it's just that Kishimoto and manga have something in plus that other great titles in literature don't have...and that's the art...stories are repetitive, so are storytelling techniques, in certain works only characters give some originality...so in that regard I don't care if I'm reading Dostoevsky or Kishimoto...but the art is there and it's satisfying, so my choice is Kishimoto...and Naruto is shounen, but Kishimoto is not, so discussing this manga or any other is okay with me...

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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Nice Thread, also nice comparison, An Genius and known as one of the finest literature writers of all time against a Shonen Manga writer:P

    However on topic, I am to a degree in agreeable, with the amount of people nitpicking every little detail of in continuity over the series. This series has spanned over years so there are bound to be small errors which the vast majority aren't all that pertinent to the story of what Naruto is. Some people need to stop bashing the small things and enjoy (or not, but then stop reading) the series on a whole

    If Kishimoto was an Literature genius such as Fyodor, I would not see him writing a manga in the first place. he would work on pieces of literature that would earn him recognition around the world which inadvertently make him more Money

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    I agree with the vast majority what's been said...but I think there is one major flaw with the comparison between Kishimoto and Dostoevsky (or any author of any major literary classic):

    They release an entire novel in one go. Kishimoto and other mangaka release their work one chapter at a time, one week at a time.

    I'm not going to pretend I've read it, but imagine if Dostoevsky released Crime and Punishment a few pages at a time over the course of 10 years and listened to feedback from fans/character polls/critics every step of the way. How different would it have ended up?

    (Note: I'm not saying that mangaka's listen to everything that people say, but if certain characters that he may not really care for gain a lot of popularity, you know he's going to find a way to work them into the story at some point...I wouldn't doubt that this has happened on multiple occasions in the manga already.)

    In essence, that's what I believe is happening with Naruto. We read a few pages every week and each week we learn more about the characters and get more absorbed into the plot. As Kishimoto gets a feel for how certain things were received, he then alters the story a little bit and moves on. After 4 or 5 years of reading mangas religiously week in and out, these characters are no longer Kishimoto's...they're yours and how dare he do something you don't like!

    Take these last few chapters about Minato and Kushina. How many people absolutely loved Minato when we knew very little about him? A lot. How many fans did he suddenly lose because people went all, "OMG! WTF HE SHUD HAF RAIZED NARTO AND LET KUSHNIA DIE!"? A lot. How many people thought Naruto was annoying when he was "barely" getting by? A lot. How many people flocked to characters like Sasuke because he's "elite" and a "genius"? A lot. And now how many of those same people are now complaining because Naruto is now supposedly "overpowered"? A lot.

    And another thing: what bothers me more than anything else is all the talk of plot holes. I personally believe that as of right now there are 0 plot holes in this manga. You know why? Because the manga is still a work in progress. I believe you can only have a "plot hole" after the author has finished. These "plot holes" that people are finding/creating may very well be answered/addressed soon, but we just have to wait for the right time to find the answer. Obviously, I do believe there are going to be some plot holes, but I believe in fairness, we need to let him tell us the whole story before we go around and analyze every last detail of what happened.

    I do realize that a large portion of the fun of reading manga are the discussions and theories, and I do enjoy them, but they quickly become irate. It's to a point where it's difficult for a lot of people (I know I'm guilty too) to realize that this story does not belong to them...it belongs to Kishimoto, and ultimately this is the story that he wants to tell. Yes, readers and fans may influence the story some, but he's going to do exactly what he wants more often than not. Deal with it.



    ...or something like that. Hopefully you understood the main idea behind what I was trying to say. But what do I know? After all, every week, I read Naruto flailing my arms about, drooling, and giggling while I look at the pretty pictures and clap my hands.
    Last edited by jsing992; August 03, 2010 at 06:05 AM. Reason: typos

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member hibar90's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    For me the discussion is OK. It keeps community alive. But there can be some negative whining and complaints (bashing). And guess what? It's not going to change anything. Perhaps Kishi is throwing holes left and right on purpose, to trigger more discussion and keep fanbase/popularity up. So here's a lesson learnt: to make a successful manga art, character and plot is not always the key, but keeping readers active and interested is just as important.

    Yes there are many series that were released regularly with much more fluid plot, memorable characters, better actions and photographic art. If you want a master piece perhaps instead of nitpicking, people can leave naruto to be itself, and explore other options. If you are too good for this manga now, maybe you can find something better in myanimelist or otaku cafe than bashing the series knowing it won't do any good.

    So, who cares if it's far from the greatest thing ever since sliced bread. But it's still successful. And isn't everyone's goal is to be success?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Gingitsune's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Quote Quote:
    They release an entire novel in one go. Kishimoto and other mangaka release their work one chapter at a time, one week at a time.
    This statement is not exactly true, some novels were serialised in magazines and newspapers. Sherlock Holmes was, the Jules Vernes novels were, the Three Musketeers series were, to name a few. Even Agatha Christie was serialised, can you imagine how mad an Agatha Christie internet forum would have get? "It's the judge, I'm sure it's the judge!", "that woman looks devious, I tell you, remember what she said last week?"

    As for Naruto's plot holes, this story works like The Heart of Darkness, first we have the facts, then we have the explanations. For reader in the future who will have the whole series avalable, the second reading will be more interesting than the first because they'll see many scene with a new light. For us who follow the story at the slow pace of a chapter per week, there's only unconnected dots instead of a second layer of story to read.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    I don't think that consistency requires Dostoyevsky level intelligence. I admit it is a manga and it is just for fun, people can walk on water (the least) but even in this fictive story I want to see some coherence. We don't have to learn everything in a chapter but when a character dies and we are almost certain that we'll never see him again in the manga, we shouldn't have any more question about huge plot holes. (Nagato and Yahiko)
    We shouldn't have an emo orphan main character who never asks about his parents, for god sake there were so many times that he could ask some info on them and he never did. That's just very bad writing if you don't want to consider it as a plot hole.
    The first part of Naruto was great, because there wasn't any (important) character development, it was just for fun, each arc a different story, a new villain. With the second part, Kishi transformed the manga into something much more different. And the new style requires writing talent, that Kishi clearly doesn't have. (As much as Lee's talent for ninjutsu).
    His art and his creativity are the reasons why I keep reading this manga.

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    Intl Translator MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted juUnior's Avatar
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    Re: Attention everyone: Masashi Kishimoto is not Dostoevsky.

    Nice topic, I agree with ppl who whom I "thanked" Its a pleasure to read Naruto, I also find flaws and all, but I'm not used to bash manga for that - If I don't like sth, I don't do it; in this case: I don't read the particular manga. BUT<!> I enjoy reading Naruto and thats all it matters <there's different topic when I wrote why I like Naruto manga, so I won't do the repetition here>

    Quote Originally Posted by Gingitsune
    For reader in the future who will have the whole series avalable, the second reading will be more interesting than the first because they'll see many scene with a new light.
    Agreed 110%. With Naruto its even more complicated when new stuff of info is revelaed <I remember the Uchiha massacre incident and Itachi stuff - whoa, I just looked at every chapter with Itachi before and it felt it has so much more depth, meaning to it; the gestures, texts of Itachi, everything made sense <I don't know why ppl seem to believe that Kishi did it on the spot; Its one of the main plot things which I consider where thought well from the beginning by Kishi>, or now recently the incident from 16 years ago with the birth of Naruto - how different I/we will read Naruto from the beginning. And manga is still going on - can't wait for info on Tobi and his deal of information. Yeah, Naruto is that of the series which with every reading someone can find new stuff ^^

    btw. I know, I know, Kishi didn't plan all the stuff, but plz, the main plot points he surely had made <like in interview where he stated he has the plan for the whole story> Of course there were made changes <editors, fans probably>, but it doesn't change the fact that "main plot" MUST be affected by thiose changes. No, thet are just "add-ons" xP
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