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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Hey guys and gals! This is my first post on here, but I've been reading threads for about a year.
Anyway, I've had this suspicion that if Madara/Tobi isn't the true Madara (which I lean toward it being the true Madara.....but...) then there must be someone overseeing the whole operation. I just had a thought about Hanzo of the Rain being the mastermind behind Akatsuki and Madara. I haven't fully thought this through yet so be easy on me if there is something blatantly obvious that I'm missing.
Here are a couple reasons showing that it could be Hanzo:
1. Hanzo disappeared from the Rain village after Yahiko died and Nagato pulled out Gedo Mazo and killed nearly everyone on his side.
2. Hanzo was known to be incredibly powerful, so what happened to him? Did Nagato find and kill him (does the manga explicitly say this, chapter/page?)
3. Hanzo was buddies with Danzo. Danzo had Sharingan so maybe they both teamed up to get Sharingans or something like that. Also, Danzo is super sketchy at best and we never learned his full story (I've had a problem with that since he was killed because it seems like there was more to uncover with Danzo).
These points kind of come from the anime, so I know it technically may not be fact, but nevertheless they may have put it in for a reason:
4. Hanzo used a teleportation jutsu to disappear during the Nagato fight. Unless this was just the body flicker and I mis-interpreted. Ninjas made it seem like time/space jutsu was rare and users were few and far between.
5. Yahiko and Nagato talked about how Hanzo is prolonging the war and appears to have some agenda.
That's all i can come up with so far. But I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this. Does anyone else think that there is some sort of mastermind that hasn't truly been introduced as the mastermind yet? I was thinking that if there is a "final" mastermind, then it must be someone that was introduced as powerful but kind of faded away in our memories.
Maybe Hanzo teleported to the Hidden Mist and became kage and uncovered some secrets of Madara or found Zetsu or something. I dunno.
Like I said, I'm not really leaning toward this theory as my main theory of everything. I just thought it could be considered.
Let's hear what you guys think!
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 13, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
Hanzo used Shunshin no jutsu and not a S/T technique And Nagato killed him and everyone even remotely related to him..
It sounds like it could be possible but i just dont see it being probable, to me it is far too late to introduce a new "final" mastermind. Maybe say tobi isn't madara but omeone else? Sure why not I think he is madara but it could be possible that he isn't and it wouldn't feel like it was pulled out of thin air but i think that if they randomly introduced someone else as the mastermind after naruto has gotten most of his main powerups(sage mode, full control over kyuubi chakra) it feels like its getting close to the end with maybe a few more powerups on the way (sage/kyuubi combination and possibly a second element and learning more elemental attacks) it seems far too late into the story to introduce another person as the final villain
The ninja Jiraiya tortured said Pain killed Hanzou and anyone even remotely associated with him.
He is dead long time ago...!
Yea, I remember something being said about Pain getting rid of Hanzo....
But, did Nagato/Pain himself say that Hanzo has been killed? I thought I remembered the tortured ninja saying that Pain defeated Hanzo (not necessarily killed him). I'll try to look back and find the wording, but the translation might not help my case either way.
Also, the "anyone remotely associated with him" could just mean all those people that Nagato pulled souls from via Gedo Mazo. Maybe that event (the "second source of pain" for Nagato with Yahiko dieing) is what the tortured ninja was talking about. I mean Nagato did take out nearly everyone associated with Hanzo during that event (even some Konoha ninja) and "defeated Hanzo".
I'm not challenging the response that it was a shunshin and not a s/t jutsu.....but I'm curious, how do you know that for sure? The translation i saw said "Teleportation!" not body flicker. Could be a weird translation....or is "teleportation" always used for the body flicker...I can't remember.
Thanks DanielKnot! you found it quicker than I could. Well, that may pretty much ruin my whole case. Unless this was just a myth that spread thru the Rain and ninjas to strike fear into their hearts. Nagato didn't seem so ruthless, so I could see it being just a myth.
Most likely I'm wrong!
After reviewing chapter 369 ~ specifically pages 6-7 (a few pages before the link DanielKnot sent) it says "the truth is no one really knows anything about pain" and things like "they say", "no one can say for sure", and "rumors that he doesn't exist".
Those statements lead me to believe that some of what he's saying is myth. And maybe exaggerations. And that ninja says the Pain killed all of Hanzo associates....which would include Danzo and Root at the very least. They aren't dead, so this could be a myth/exaggeration thing.
I think my theory, at best, is possible. My bet is that this whole theory isn't true...but I can't seem to find definitive facts that prove it's impossible. Improbable, yes! Impossible, no!
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 13, 2010 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Welcome to MH man.Enjoy the forum...it took you long enough to join though
Well...I think that Hanzou is dead, because Nagato killed him...those rain shinobi said this that's true not Nagato himself, but I think Nagato really killed him...I mean there was a revolution, Hanzou is to blame for Yahiko's death, so I think for Nagato it was personal...
Also Hanzou being Tobi would be great, because it would give us some info about a powerful shinobi that named the sannin, but Tobi's actions in this recollection, also point toward Hanzou not being Tobi
teleportation in narutoverse is high speed movement..
shunshin = teleportation =/= space/time jutsu
the only reason i can think of why nagato didn't kill danzou because he was in konoha. hidden rain is different from konoha, they're very closed to the outer world, that's why jiraiya didn't know about hanzo's death. invading konoha at that time means exposing their secret organization.
Yea, he most likely didn't invade Konoha at that point to keep the organization secret, but also to make sure Konoha didn't interrupt his plans because if he did mess with Danzo, Konoha could have stepped in and put an end to Pain early on.
but when he did invade konoha, he should have looked for Danzo in his gopher hole and flooded him out of hiding. Then killed him and been like "that's what you get when you side with a salamander" you SOB.
Glad you can see my point here. I hate to be a shmuck with my "yea, but did Nagato actually say that" crap .... I assumed up until I watched ep173 that Hanzo is dead...but there was just something bothering me with not really hearing much from Nagato himself about defeating Hanzou. Plus, if Hanzo took on all 3 Sannin and "won"....then for Pain to defeat him must have been a long, hard battle. I mean old Jiraiya fought Pain alone and could have won had he known more about his jutsu. He took out several bodies unlike anyone else but Naruto....so:
3 Sannin vs Hanzo = Draw
Pain vs 1 Sannin = Pain *but close fight
so, Hanzo + associates vs Pain = ?Pain?
That seems a little odd, but very possible
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 13, 2010 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Hanzo was killed along with his whole family, associates and anyone that has any relations with him except Danzo. Nagato couldn't touch Danzo.
Last edited by Pervy Sage; August 13, 2010 at 03:02 PM.
There are several times throughout the manga that other ninjas stated how Hanzo was a powerful ninja and a force to be reckoned with. For him to just get a sentence from some a ninja being interrogated about Pain killing everyone associated with him just seems a little weird to me. For Hanzo to be the "leader" of the Hidden Rain....a small village and small ninja force, he must have been powerful enough to deter any other Kage/Village from taking it over or at least challenging it. And for the explanation of what happened to him coming from a ninja based on hearsay....i dont know if it's a fact that how this ninja said it happened was the actual way it happened. Maybe Hanzo just disappeared into the shadows until he was powerful enough to try to rule all the villages.
And, if Hanzo did disappear and wasn't killed....It could benefit Nagato/Pain and Co. to tell everyone he is dead and spread some rumors about killing anyone that worked with him. This would make people think twice about questioning Pain's power as a leader. And, this would quell any fear that if they listen to Pain (accept him as leader) there could never be any backlash from Hanzo if they did and Hanzo re-emerged. And, any followers that were left would change sides for fear of death. Basically, there's a "fear mongering" side to this....fear is often used by governments or ruling bodies for the purpose of control. Hitler's rise to power is a good example of using this technique.....but it's also used by Iran, China, North Korea, and don't forget the US.
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 13, 2010 at 03:06 PM.
hanzo is dead and i think the ninja's convo about pein was to the effect that he used dead bodies.no one seen nagato in the village so the rumors flew about him not existing.jiraiya didn't even know what was going on when he saw yahiko with the rinnegan....
Wasn't it immediately after the events with Hanzo (as they were returning to Konoha) that Jiraiya met Nagato, Yahiko, and Konan? I thought they were in Amegakure (given that Hanzo was the leader), and the three kids were Amegakure orphans, so...
If so, that means that Jiraiya had already had the prophecy from the Great Toad Sage about the "Destined Child", etc. If so, I think it safe to assume that Jiraiya had the frog summoning contract during the fight with Hanzo, and most possibly was capable of Sage Mode.
As for why Ma and Pa were not present, I would guess it was because Tsunade was around. Given that Sage Mode warps his appearance and makes him...fairly hideous, he avoids using it unless absolutely necessary, because the girls wouldn't like it...and given that he was always chasing after Tsunade, I doubt he'd use Sage Mode in front of her.
My question is: if Nagato had truly killed Hanzo, why wouldn't he claim his body to use in battle like Sasori did with Sandaime Kazekage?
Regardless of the hatred he felt towards him, he was a powerful ninja. Unless any corpse was suitable for his jutsu, it'd make sense to use the body of a powerful ninja, wouldn't it? If not for the jutsu, he could have at least used him as a symbol/example, but then again, he didn't have a problem convincing people he was a god.
that's if there was any body left,to think what pein would have done to hanzo once he caught him.cringe......