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Thread: Abyssal Pit General thread

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Abyssal Pit General thread

    This is a fun thread that has been recommended to me, that I hope everyone will enjoy!

    This Fantasy Fights Thread is for discussion of match ups between any two characters, which haven't occured in the manga.

    The significant characters to choose from:

    Isley, Rigardo, Dauf, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Teresa, Irene, Sophia, Noel, Priscilla, Alicia, Beth, Galatea, Ophelia, Miria, Flora, Jean, Undine, Cynthia, Deneve, Helen, Tabatha, Yuma, Clare, Audrey, Miata, Rachel, Renee, Dietrich, Nina, Clarice, Agatha, Rubel, Rimuto, Orsay, Ermita, Rado, Dae, Raki, Cid, and Galk

    (If I missed any, let me know)

    The Format:

    Pick any two characters that you'd like to see battle each other. Explain why you chose them to battle each other, what you think the result would be, and why. Include anything else that you think is relevant or important in your discussion as well, such as pros/cons of both characters and typed sources (type out chapter and page #) from the manga (if you can).

    The Rules:

    Follow all the rules of this site obviously. Especially take care in your posts to be respectful and civil, especially if you get into a debate, as this is a passionate subject to everyone.

    In particular (but not limited to)...

    NO FLAMING/BASHING
    NO SPAM/NONSENSE
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 27, 2010 at 01:17 AM. Reason: finishing touches to this thread starter
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    here's a thought I had about an old battle from many (many many lol) chapters ago:

    In the Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia battle, Clare suppresses her yoki, in order to be able to sense Ophelia's yoki with her "PYS" (Pre-emptive Yoki Sensing) ability (only Teresa and Clare have this yoki ability), however, we (the readers/watchers) and she-Clare learns that while the PYS ability allows her to know how/where Claymore Ophelia attacks her with her "Rippling Sword", Clare is still unable with her own abilities to parry it.

    Thus, I'm going to say that Clare in this battle was stupid. Once Clare found out she's still unable to parry Claymore Ophelia's "Rippling Sword" (at her first cut from it), why did she not release her yoki, and try to out power Ophelia instead. Also, if she had released her own yoki, Clare might have then had the ability to parry Claymore Ophelia's "Rippling Sword", though then she wouldn't be able to sense Claymore Ophelia's yoki with her PYS ability. Still, suppressing her yoki, was doing nothing for Clare, so I say that she should have released her yoki, becoming more powerful, and try to go on the offensive and attack/kill Claymore Ophelia first, before she gets chopped up like she DID GET CHOPPED by Claymore Ophelia's "Rippling Sword" even while suppressing her yoki and thus using her PYS ability.

    agree or disagree? anyone have any thoughts about this?
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; September 03, 2010 at 08:58 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Sanitypact's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore Hang-out Thread

    I don't think she could have done anything yoki or no, she was out of her league that fight.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore Hang-out Thread

    ah, good to see another poster!

    why do you think she was out of her league? reasons?

    -----------------------------------------------------

    that's probably true, but Clare would have had more of a possible chance if she had released her yoki.

    And, I'm (personally-my opinion only) not certain if Clare was actually out of her league.

    So, I'd love to hear why you think Clare was out of her league! Why couldn't Clare's power level, and abilities be on par, or even exceed Ophelia's? I mean we don't know because Clare never released (well never used) her yoki against Claymore Ophelia...
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 27, 2010 at 06:48 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: Claymore Hang-out Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    ah, good to see another poster!

    why do you think she was out of her league? reasons?

    -----------------------------------------------------

    that's probably true, but Clare would have had more of a possible chance if she had released her yoki.

    And, I'm (personally-my opinion only) not certain if Clare was actually out of her league.

    So, I'd love to hear why you think Clare was out of her league! Why couldn't Clare's power level, and abilities be on par, or even exceed Ophelia's? I mean we don't know because Clare never released (well never used) her yoki against Claymore Ophelia...
    Back then her redeeming ability was her yoki sensing. It was what let her keep up with faster, stronger opponents. In base form Ophelia was clearly shown to be at least somewhat faster, and stronger.

    Ophelia's technique allowed her to cancel out Clares specialized yoki sense.

    Clare could release yoki, but so could Ophelia. It might be that, even before she could do a partial awakening in a controlled lasting way, Clare could use more yoki than Ophelia. However she would have had to use enough to cover the gap in their original power levels, which was clearly shown by Ophelia dealing with the AB.

    Finally when they both were using their full power, Clare would still be unable to use her only non-generic combat technique, but Ophelia could still use hers.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore Hang-out Thread

    great post, especially excellent point about how No yoki release Ophelia dominated (pun intended) poor No yoki release Clare. I forgot that.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanitypact View Post
    Back then her redeeming ability was her yoki sensing. It was what let her keep up with faster, stronger opponents. In base form Ophelia was clearly shown to be at least somewhat faster, and stronger.

    Ophelia's technique allowed her to cancel out Clares specialized yoki sense.

    Clare could release yoki, but so could Ophelia. It might be that, even before she could do a partial awakening in a controlled lasting way, Clare could use more yoki than Ophelia. However she would have had to use enough to cover the gap in their original power levels, which was clearly shown by Ophelia dealing with the AB.

    Finally when they both were using their full power, Clare would still be unable to use her only non-generic combat technique, but Ophelia could still use hers.
    I disagree that Clare couldn't be superior to Ophelia (Ophelia could still definately be superior), here's why or how Clare could be superior (or at least equal to Ophelia):

    (I'm also a huge Clare fan, lol, so there's probably some baseless bias from me in Clare's favor, lol)

    1. "In base form Ophelia was clearly shown to be at least somewhat faster, and stronger." -sanitypact

    Yes, but Ophelia was intentionally being hostile to Clare. Whereas Clare was still in shock (Miria did tell Clare to watch out for Ophelia.. but I can't remember if she actually told why though...grr.. but it was too late anyways if I remember right by the time Clare saw Ophelia's emblem/symbol, Ophelia was already wrapping her arms around Clare's supple body... so.. jealous of Ophelia.. lol.. sorry.. hehe).

    And, even if Clare wasn't in shock, she wasn't going to attack another Claymore, at least not until her life would soon be in danger, lol.

    [edited this in jsut recently (jsut remembered this): actually Claymore Clare NEVER truly attacks Claymore Ophelia, at least NOT with intent to kill anyways. What if Clare actually DID attack Ophelia, actualyl was trying to kill Ophelia... maybe she could have... yes? or no?]

    2. "Back then her redeeming ability was her yoki sensing. It was what let her keep up with faster, stronger opponents." -sanity pact

    I have to disagree that Clare didn't have other abilities and stuff... besides just her "PYS" (Pre-emptive Yoki Sensing. Teresa's and Clare's unique yoki sensing ability. it's what some others use to call it, so I use it as it's only 3 letters, lol)

    I won't get into it though, as it would be long... Clare's not as weak as she seems... and I don't even think/believe it's from "Teresa's flesh inside of her". I think Clare is incredible from HERSELF, not from Teresa's flesh or Irene's arm.

    3. "Ophelia's technique allowed her to cancel out Clares specialized yoki sense." -sanity pact

    just to quibble (over semantics) on this.

    Clare's PYS worked perfectly even on Ophelia's "Rippling Sword", Clare knew exactly how (what direction) Ophelia was going to swing her sword at Clare, BEFORE Ophelia had swung her sword (just like before against the "spiderman -credit to J.J." male AB).

    The problem wasn't Clare's PYS ability, but rather her own physical skills.

    This is why, Clare should have released her yoki, as in releasing her yoki, she activates her yoma half (well 1/4, not half, lol) of her body, which improves her physical performance beyond what she's capable of with her Claymore/"human" half (well 3/4, not half, lol) of her body.

    4. "Clare could release yoki, but so could Ophelia." -sanity pact

    Ophelia was alredy releasing X amount of yoki. (X/100 yoki released, or rather I should say X/79 yoki released, as neither wants to Awaken, lol)

    Clare was releasing NO yoki. (0/100 yoki released, or rather I should say 0/79 yoki released, as neither wants to Awaken, lol)

    -------------------------------------------

    I agree with you on this point:

    5. "However she would have had to use enough to cover the gap in their original power levels, which was clearly shown by Ophelia dealing with the AB." -sanity pact

    Ophelia did decapitate it in a single slice at no yoki release (I think, but not sure), whereas Clare released X amount of yoki to reattach her legs and slice through the female AB's tentacles to free Raki.

    In this example, Clare does seem weaker than Ophelia.

    -----------------------------------------

    actually, I do agree with you that Ophelia was at least strength wise, superior to Clare.

    actually, I feel that Ophelia is really powerful (in terms of strength), as that is really what makes her rank 4. Her sheer power in terms of strength. I wish I could see if Ophelia (and Irene too) could slice through Dauf easily or not... sighs....

    However, in Clare's defense, she hasn't developed any offensive skill yet (and in my theory, she still hasn't really started to tap into her own huge power level yet).

    Clare's power actually drastically shoots up, when she's now able to do the Quick Sword with her bad/weaker/non-dominant/non-sword arm left arm (this is before Irene gave Clare her own right arm). So, that power was all Clare's, she just couldn't bring it out, prior to learning the Quick Sword.

    ----------------------------------

    p.s.

    Feel free to disagree and "tear apart my post" showing how wrong I am, if you want to! I like discussions/debates! hehe
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; September 03, 2010 at 09:04 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Sanitypact's Avatar
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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    i'm just going to respond to your numbers, to make things easier.

    1. Yes, however even after realizing that Ophelia was attacking, on this page
    http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/...2/page007.html
    She loses her legs before she even notices that Ophelia has moved. It doesn't require a commitment to kill your enemy, to block. On the offensive Clare seems to be able to keep up with Ophelia. However when on the defensive she can't seem to block fast enough.

    2. Fair enough, but it's hard to debate that... I don't really know how much power she was supposed to have gained since her last fight, but I don't think she had any more specialized attacks at least. Except maybe knowing how to use a knife?

    3. You're right. She couldn't block, however it wasn't because her sensing failed, she just didn't have the necessary skill or power.

    4. Also true, but I don't think that makes much of a difference because of the final point

    5. I reread the fight, and actually realized there is a better example of the strength difference, in terms of muscle. http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/...3/page015.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/...3/page017.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/...3/page018.html
    In this scene Ophelia holds Clare down with one arm, and no yoki release. Clare has to go over her limit to break the grip (although the leverage is bad, I'll admit)

    So, even if Clare used all of her yoki I personally believe that unless she could stay on the offensive and keep up a superior speed to Ophelia that way, she would have lost.

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    In the fight Clare tries to run. So if she had the power to win, she at least thought the fight would be so close that taking the wounds needed to feign death would be a better choice.

    I think if they had a rematch now Clare would win of course :P
    Last edited by Sanitypact; September 03, 2010 at 09:22 PM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Alisia's Avatar
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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    I think that Claire knew from the beginning that did not have hopes with Ophelia, the difference in skills and Yoki was abysmal, so he decided to concentrate all its efforts on a tactic considered appropriate, that feel the flow of the opponent yoki . As demonstrated, however, this was not enough because his reading skills and response were clearly unbalanced.

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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    Wow dude, I think no matter the yoki Clare uses, Ophelia would have chopped her to pieces one way or another. What Clare did was the best option: to think about a good way to scape the battlefield.

    Bye!

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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    to tell ya the truth i really wanted ophelia in the northern campaign and oh wells...

    but at that time of their battle clare was no match...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    Welcome to Claymore, Lolzasas! I hope you love it as much as me, hehe, and make a lot of good posts for us to read!

    -----------------

    why was Clare no match? what reasons do you have for saying/believing this? sources (chapter and page number) if you can. give examples and explain why they support Claymore Clare not being a match for Claymore Ophelia.

    I'm interested in your explanations and reasons behind and why you think that Claymore Clare was no match for Claymore Ophelia.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    thx,

    well firstly is opehlia's raw strength

    next is her technique which is kinda cool and freaky at the same time..

    clare's ability at that time wasnt enough to bring ophelia down

    but i love em both

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    Re: Fantasy Fights

    Luciela vs. Riful. They're abilities cancel each other out (Riful uses her ribbons to stab and slice and Luciela's mouths can eat 'em). Plus we haven't seen much from Luciela (what is her attack ability anyway?). I think Riful would win though.

    Galatea vs. Agatha. We didn't get to see a one-on-one fight between them (Galatea was trying to defend against Miata w/o killing her, trying to protect the town, and wasn't even fighting at her full power). I think Galatea would kick her ass.

    Teresa vs. the Destroyer. Does it really need an explanation?

    And of course, Teresa vs. Priscilla..... duh (Teresa would kick ass).

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Fantasy Fights

    Luciela vs Riful:
    (Naruto-9 tails vs Orochimaru's "snake slipperiness" jutsus. good comparison/analogy or not? lol)

    This is hard to say, as we haven't really seen Luciela's actual fighting.

    Luciela:

    Her's and Isley's battle did devastate the land. Maybe we did see Luciela using her 2-4 tails, possibly crushing the land (too lazy to look back up the chapters at the moment). So, she is powerful. She also has her mouths all over on her body and tails. We don't know if she can move her mouths around or not. She held her own against Isley. I don't think we actually see her with any damage from Isley (but I could be wrong. can't remember and too lazy to look up the battle at the moment). Isley had some damage. Though he might have had more damage and regenerated it. We aren't shown whether Luciela can regenerate or not (though she should be able to as both Isley and Riful can). We don't know how fast and/or agile Luciela is. We also don't know if Luciela can shoot the projectiles like the Destroyer's (whom came from Luciela+Rafaela) Hellcats can (the Hellcats seem very similar to Luciela's Awakened cat body/form too). Maybe Luciela's mouths (as well as eat/chomp/bite) can shoot projectiles (like Dauf's mouth did with his rods).

    Riful:

    "What we see is what we get". There's no secrets/mysteries to Riful. There's really nothing to Riful except her amorphous body/form and her ability to move her real-true body within it too. Also, she can shoot out her Ribbons from anywhere from her body too. She's (her Ribbons are) powerful. she's smart and cautious.

    my take of Riful vs Luciela:

    it would seem that Riful's physical characteristics would give her an advantage over Isley, which would mean she would seem to do even better against Luciela than Isley did. We have no idea how Isley, whom is an easier target, didn't get eaten up by Luciela. So, it's hard to say how Riful vs Luciela's mouths would compare. Also, you'd think Luciela's tails would be slower than Riful's ribbons too. So, even though the mouths are are Luciela's tails, Riful's ribbons are faster (it would seem, from the size-mass difference).

    Though if Luciela can move her mouths... she could be more forminable against Riful, though the same should be true than of against Isley...

    We also don't know their power levels/yoki amounts, before they run out.

    so, I'm going to have to go with Riful as the victor, as I understand things currently.

    Galatea vs Agatha:

    Unfortunately, Galatea herself said that she could NOT defeat Agatha. Though, we could assume that she is lying.... (extremely unlikely... but meh...)

    Despite being blind, Galatea showed no signs of it, and I'm not talking about sensing yoki, I'm talking about moving around and not crashing (or falling off of the buildings, or in how she knows where the humans are and such) into the NON-yoki stuff, such as the buildings... I'm still trying to figure this out, lol...

    Galatea seems capable in taking on Agatha, except Agatha never used her full power on Galatea (or full attention), instead she used it gradually on Miata, as Miata was the threat, as a Rank 1, whereas Agatha was an Awakened rank 2, and Galatea a "mere" rank 3.

    So it is hard to say... However Galatea had the same trouble against (a "weaker" Awakened rank 3) Dauf (such as defending his attack, especially his rods), compared to (Awakened rank 2) Agatha. As she-Galatea doesn't seem that fast. If Galatea had trouble with Dauf's rods, she'd probably ahve trouble with Agatha's tentacles, and whatever/however exactly she was attacking Miata gradually with her full power (was the rain itself, actually Agatha's attack?).

    (p.s. Did Galatea only have a single battle shown in the entire manga, against Dauf, or am I forgetting other battles, and am going to be embarrased?)

    so, due to the fact that Galatea told us, she could not defeat Agatha, I have to go with that.

    Also, Galatea said she couldn't stop Miria either, which probably means Galatea was saying that she was weaker than Miria as well (yes, Miria's yoki was "naturally" suppressed, but Galatea was able to sense the pill suppressed yokis of Miata, Clarice, and Dietrich).

    But if we just look at actual combat performance, it is also too hard for me to say which would win.

    Teresa vs Destroyer:

    Awakened Priscilla at full power nearly destroyed the Destroyer in a single attack (well she destroyed its fake or shell/exoskeleton twin goddesses of love body anyways).

    Teresa is ~ x8 more powerful than Priscilla...

    so....

    Claymore Teresa releasing let's say 10-30% yoki, flicks the Destroyer with her pinky finger, doing the same damage/outcome to the Destroyer, as full power Awakened Priscilla did. If Claymore Teresa was releasing 30-50% yoki, she's kill the Destroyer outright in its entirity, with just a flick of her pinky finger. hehe. Though I am quite a "Teresa fanboy/supporter", so maybe somehow there's bias here, laughs.

    Teresa wins easily against the Destroyer, still not needing to get even close to Awakening (80% yoki release).

    Teresa vs Priscilla:

    I presume you mean either (as we've already seen Claymore Teresa vs Claymore Priscilla in the manga):

    Claymore Teresa vs Awakened Priscilla
    Awakened Teresa vs Awakeneds Priscilla

    As you can probably tell from my segment about the Teresa vs Destroyer:

    Claymore Teresa would easily pwn Awakened Priscilla, just as she easily pwned Claymore Priscilla.

    I'll discuss Awakened Teresa, when there's such an opponent to match her.... lol
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; September 15, 2010 at 05:58 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: the battle between Claymore Clare vs Claymore Ophelia

    Ophelia is stronger than Clare that time. Stronger that Miria warned them not to engage Ophelia into battle. In fact, She warned Clare to avoid her as much as possible. Miria is number 6 that time, right? But she admits that the power gap between her number and Ophelia's are far too great.

    Ophelia's Rippling Sword is great. i think its better than the Quick Sword though. But Quick Sword is far more cool than the Ripple.

    Ciao!

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