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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Moderator message by: HegemonKhanI messed up making this thread, so my apologies to everyone.
(This is not a part of Sorostaran's post)
This thread is a discussion about anything beyond a Claymore, but not an Awakened.
(Requested/Suggested by Goral)
Half Awakens (HAs), Ghosts, Clare's ability to Awaken selected parts of her body (Partially/Selectively Awakening), Teresa's source of her ultimate or #1 power level, whether a Claymore (having/keeping their human mind) can fully Awaken and de-Awaken at will without the Soul Link, or anything else related to this topic.
Moderator message by: HegemonKhan(this is a copy of part of Sorostaran's post from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...0&postcount=21)
(This is a part of/from Sorostaran's post)
This is the relevant part of Sorostaran 's post for this thread's topic:
Ruvuru comments on Miria's rapid increase in strength and says the Organization's ace is not the trainee twins.
I found Ruvuru commenting on how rapidly Miria's strength has increased interesting. One theory people have considered is that claymores who have gone past the limit without fully awakening can continue to increase in power rapidly (I'll call them Reverted Awakened Beings, or RAB in this post), whereas fully awakened beings are stuck at their power levels (judging from the AOs' apparent lack of significant power increase despite being awakened years apart).
It is, of course, possible, that there is a limit to how powerful a RAB can become (and her AB form may represent that limit). However, I think it is more likely that there is no limit to how powerful a RAB can become once the process has begun (hence the Organization considered them a potential threat and sent the known RABs to their deaths).
If you consider the single being in the Claymore universe whose yoki is truly off the scale, Teresa, it may be that she had become a RAB as a child, much earlier than any of the other RABs, and kept her unchecked power increase a secret from the Organization for obvious reasons. This may explain why she is so far off the scale in terms of raw yoki power.
Moderator message by: HegemonKhanSorry (especially to) Goral, and Sorostaran, I messed this up when making this thread.
Last edited by igotthegoods; August 29, 2010 at 12:16 AM. Reason: removed Goral's post due to duplicate content
In fact she said herself that she almost never uses her youma powers (-> ES1, fight with Rosemary). How could someone like that awaken is beyond me.
As for partially awakening as a child, Teresa from the start was considered a prodigy and #1 material. If she partially awakened, even knowing her tendency to venture into the wilderness far off from the org it would be sensed by everyone on the island. I think that everyone will agree that Teresa was a #1 material and of Abyssal level at least so sth like that wouldn't become unnoticed. Not to mention that after Riful incident I would doubt MiB would allow their trainees (especially strong ones) to use their youki without their supervision. She was a rookie then for crying out loud, unless she was a retard she wouldn't risk becoming a monster just for fun (if you can call releasing youki fun). From the start she was known as someone that doesn't release her youki because she doesn't need to. And how do you expect from a child that knew s*it about controlling youriki to go back after awakening if even experienced Claymores would have really big problems with that?
In addition, it would be very strange that Clare's generation would have at least 5 RABs and Teresa's only one (and super-powerful at that). Seriously, I could understand that someone partially awakened because he didn't have much choice but awakening even though it wasn't needed? Someone would have to be a retard or crazy for that (*cough* Riful-sociopath *cough*).
I also wouldn't be surprised if there was someone like Ophelia in Teresa's generation that could sense partially-awakened Claymores.
What's more, partial-awakening doesn't boost youki quantity but quality. And once Teresa released her youki Irene was shocked at the fact how much of it she has released even though it only made her eyes' colour to change. Rosemary's statement makes it even more clear. Rosemary, awakened ex-warrior #1, most probably an AO (seeing how easily AO were defeated in recent 15 chapters I don't think it's that hard to believe, it seems that even Miria would be a match for one) and most definitely the strongest #2 in the Organization's history pissed her pants once she sensed her youki. "What is this crazy youma energy" says everything about Teresa's insane pure power. No one so far made such a comment about "RABs".
Besides, if Teresa knew that partial awakening was possible I would think she wouldn't tell Priscilla it's impossible to return being human after releasing 80% of youki. Why would she lie to her about that?
Last but not least, Priscilla was similar to Teresa and could also defeat anyone without using her youki. Do you want to imply that she was the only exception? She could do it but Teresa needed to awaken first?
Last edited by igotthegoods; August 28, 2010 at 11:59 PM. Reason: removed duplicate content from opening post
you probably forgot, but Miria said so about Clare.... hehe
Miria to herself about Clare: ~"It felt as though I was standing next to the most powerful warrior I had ever known!"
Also the that "spiderman" (credit goes to J.J. for this "nickname" for it) male AB also concured as well about Clare:
~"What is up with you, one moment you have massive yoki and the next moment you have puny yoki"
it seems that using the PYS ability... makes the power level of the yoki go up.... (interesting... never realized this possibility...)
your post is mostly rational opinion (it makes a lot of sense), but not absolute fact.
it could be very well that you are right, just as it is just as possible for Teresa's supreme power to be because she's a HA (or as storostaran called it, RABs, which I kinda like, hehe).
we simply don't know... what caused Teresa AND Priscilla to be so powerful, compared to everyone else. if it is mere "natural ability" that determines a rank 47 compared to a rank 1 compared to Teresa/Priscilla, that's hard for me to accept.. but it's certainly possible!
though it could also be that Teresa (and Priscilla! here's an idea... Priscilla's amnesia and child-regression... could have caused her to "partially de-awaken", thus allowing her to become more powerful, before she re-Awakened in Ticheri town abandoning Raki to go feast on poor Beth, after she sensed Clare's yoki release) is so supremely powerful because of being a "RAB", as we *DO* see a huge power increase from being HAs with Clare, Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Jean too.
about Teresa releasing yoki:
she certainly didn't ever face an opponent where she needed to (except 70%+ Priscilla) release any yoki.
however, who's to say that Teresa wasn't "power hungry" and for "fun" released yoki all on her own, by herself, and found herself able to easily control it too... becoming the "end game" HA, and thus becoming the most powerful being of all time.
(in the REAL WORLD, it is filled with people whom crave and quest for more and more power, all around us! Why would it be different in the Claymore world? Power is seductive, whether in real life or fantasy. And Teresa could even be susceptible to it. as the famous quote from a mt everest climber said in response to why he climbed it: ~"Because, it is there, to be climbed." Well, 100% yoki release "IS THERE" for Teresa to release, just as mt everest "IS THERE" to be climbed...)
and I'm sure there could be a way or a place where Teresa could do this, without anyone noticing/sensing her yoki release.
Also, Teresa was already a good yoki suppressor/hide'er, as she had to do so, while even not releasing any yoki, because her yoki was already that powerful.... It's kinda like how Riful was able to hide her full power of yoki, only allowing a little bit to be sensed...
well, Teresa was doing the same as well. Her yoki, even at no yoki release, was so powerful that she had to hide it! This is based on Teresa suddenly starting to pwn Claymore Priscilla in their 1v1 battle in town. Irene's assessment was wrong about Teresa, whereas Priscilla, whom was actually engaged against Teresa, correctly assessed Teresa, she=Priscilla wasn't getting slower... TERESA WAS GETTING FASTER, yet Teresa wasn't still releasing any yoki..... how could this be? Teresa wasn't using the full power of her "non-yoki released" yoki! But now Teresa was, and now she was faster and pwning Priscilla. hehe.
lastly, you forgot... Teresa was able to release 10% of her yoki, without anyone noticing... against Rosemary. so despite releasing her uber powerful 10% yoki, the entire island didn't sense it... nor did anyone sense it again against Priscilla, except those immediately nearby watching the battle (Irene, Sophia, Noel, AND HUMAN CLARE).
actually, I'm positive Teresa says ~"a ROOKIE like you, Priscilla, can't control 80%+ yoki release and/or revert back from Awakening), which I find very suggestive of Teresa being able to do just this very thing... hehe.
Teresa "lied" (kept secret) her power, so why would she not keep secret the secret of her power, lol.
Teresa was powerful enough to defeat anyone as well as priscilla, but teresa could have become a HA, and thus becoming EVEN MORE powerful then she already is.
let's say that Teresa was actually originally equal in power to Priscilla. But, then Teresa at some point (before Priscilla or even killing Rosemary) became a HA, which skyrocketed her to being 8 times more powerful then Priscilla, as we know her to be (using just 10% yoki to beat 79% yoki Priscilla).
I'm curious about something, which I'd really be interested in your thoughts gorel (or anyone elses) on this:
do you think that Claymore Priscilla (at most no more than 50% yoki. I'm not even asking if you think Priscilla could do so at no yoki release that Teresa had, but as long as you base your repsonse/answer on Priscilla not going over 50% yoki release) could have killed an Abyssal One, as Teresa had done to Rosemary (but with NO yoki release) ??
or maybe more simply, let me try phrasing it this way:
do you think that 0-50% yoki Claymore Priscilla could have killed an AB, (if yes) then how about a strong AB such as Rigardo, (if yes) and then an AO like Rosemary?
How powerful do you think that Claymore Priscilla between 0-50% yoki was? Could she kill an AB, a strong AB, an AO?
i have the same quetion about Irene, Sophia, and Noel.
how powerful (or non-powerful) were they really?
for example, could Irene have easily sliced Rigardo/Dauf to pieces with her Quick Sword with her power level, or not?
or, how fast was Noel (and thus indirectly how fast, was Irene, Priscilla, and Teresa as they seemed to be even faster then Noel, despite Noel being Whirlwind Noel, lol) ? Who's faster, Noel or Miria?
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM.
The thing is she was only using less than 30% of her youki (probably only 10%), to go past her limits she would have to use at least 80%. That's a huge difference especially if you take into account that the power increases exponentially. Besides, we don't know what MiB really knew, if they sensed Teresa during her fight with Rosemary they could still think she released over 50% of her youki in order to defeat her, they wouldn't know only her eyes' color changed and Teresa was a goddess.
just a quick comment on this point:
well, for her battle against Priscilla:
irene said this:
~"I can't believe it! Teresa released JUST ENOUGH YOKI TO CHANGE HER EYE COLOR"
AKA, Teresa released exactly 10% yoki.
so, I'm going to assume she released exactly 10% yoki against Rosemary too.
and I should have not used that phrasing of you forgetting, as I know you're very knowledgible on Claymore. my apologizes. I was being lazy and not using much thought about what individual phrases I used, sorry.
if the Black coats (MiBs) knew Teresa's power... they would never have used Priscilla, as they would have known even she paled in comparison to Teresa's power.
but they used Priscilla, actually thinking that Priscilla was more powerful then Teresa, which clearly shows that they did NOT ever learn Teresa's real power, not even from her battle with Rosemary.
though I do find it hard to accept Orsay being so easily fooled and so gullible or trusting of Teresa and what the lame excuse that she said to him about her cloak/cape being torn... and he accepting it... surely orsay isn't that stupid.... lol...
but meh.... who knows... I'm still maintaining that they didn't know Teresa's power, as I explained about Priscilla. So, maybe Orsay is stupid... and "bought" Teresa's pathetic excuss/explaination. lol
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 07, 2010 at 04:06 AM.
Remember that the theory is that, once a claymore has gone past her limit and come back without fully awakening, she "breaks the dam" so to speak, and her raw power start to increase rapidly over time. Teresa was described as a problem child who ran away on her own to yoma-infested wilderness (from Rafaela's recollection of child Teresa). It is possible that she has gone past her limit and come back as a child for any number of reasons on one of these trips into the infested wilderness (curiosity, defending herself against strong ABs as a runaway child, etc.).
Still, judging from the power increase of the Ghosts, Teresa would have had to have off-the-chart potential to increase in power as a RAB to begin with, even having begun the RAB power increase as a child. Teresa going past her limit as a child would not have been an earthshattering event, because when she went past her limit as a child, she wouldn't have been nearly as gamebreakingly powerful as she would eventually become, having "broken the dam" and gone through her unchecked raw power increase over time (note that Clare, despite being a quarter-hybrid and a very weak starter, exhibited substantially higher post-HA power increase than the other RABs).
The Organization switched from male claymores to female claymores because of the threat of ABs. Had they always known that fully awakened claymores (soul-link twins) were safer (no potential for unchecked power increase)? Why were there suddenly so many RABs after Teresa? Was the Organization (or maybe just Ruvuru) trying to create RABs in Teresa's time, but could not on a mass scale until they learned something about RABs from Teresa and improved their odds of creating RABs post-Teresa, then eventually deemed the RABs too high-risk to keep around and sent them to their deaths?
In the fight against Priscilla, it might be that Teresa sensed a high RAB potential in Priscilla, and decided to kill her instead of risking Priscilla becoming a threat (but the killing blow was blocked by Irene). Shortly after, Priscilla released yoki and Teresa was able to gauge Priscilla's true power more accurately, at which point, Teresa became confident that Priscilla will never surpass her in power (Teresa said as much as she left town). Her revised judgement proved accurate later when 10% Teresa completely outmatched the ~80% Priscilla; the ~80% Priscilla could not even land a scratch on 10% Teresa, even with a surprise attack, and the 10% Teresa could land blows on ~80% Priscilla at will. It was only when Teresa powered down to 0% that Priscilla was able to land a blow on Teresa, and even then the ~80% Priscilla could only land a solid blow on 0% Teresa by surprise.
Of course, at the end of the day, the RAB hypothesis is only a hypothesis.
- - -
As far as Miria's display of power goes. I don't think this whole idea of speed isn't power but raw physical strength is holds water. Ruvuru certainly thinks that Miria has become much more powerful without seeing any display of raw physical strength. For Rigardo, his super speed was his main power. And when Clare was doing her "More Power!" against Rigardo, what was the primary gain from her "More Power!"ing? It was more speed.
Last edited by sorostaran; August 07, 2010 at 06:19 AM. Reason: Spelling
Contrary to Clare, Teresa was always considered the strongest. Even one look at her sufficed for most sane (and skillfull in youki detection) Claymores to not attack her, how would you explain it?
Also, going by your line of thought Teresa had limitless potential then. She was so weak at the beginning that her awakening couldn't be sensed by the organization (MiBs or Claymores) even though she was very close to them (you don't seriously think that Teresa would wonder so far off, do you? If she was so weak it would take her a lot of time and someone would start looking for her). But suddenly her youki increased so much that Rosemary pissed her pants? That's ridiculous if you ask me. As I've written at the start, youki of partially-awakened Claymores doesn't increase. We know thanks to Deneve that after many partial awakenings Claymore has youki always at maximum limit (but that doesn't make his youki feel stronger and it won't make you a stronger AB, only a stronger Claymore). Teresa however had insane youki signature and once she released it, it was clear that she was from a completely different league.
As for Clare, the thing is she's special and comparing her to others can be a stretch since she's one-fourth youma (as you emphasized yourself) while most (all?) other Claymores are half-youma. Plus she has the most powerful warrior inside her. And yes, Clare has improved the most but Irene played a big role in that. IMO the main reason for that however was Teresa. With every awakening she would gain access to more of her hidden, Teresa's potential. Teresa on the other hand had already that power at her disposal and didn't have to awaken for that.
BTW, I find it rather funny that you're trying to prove Teresa was so strong by comparing her to Clare whose powers came from Teresa. That's just another thing that suggests Teresa was insanely powerful. Do you honestly think that Clare could dominate Rigaldo if she didn't have insane youki? And I really doubt that only a small part of Teresa's power could make Clare so strong if Teresa herself wasn't insanely strong from the start.
Last edited by Goral; August 07, 2010 at 01:43 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar check
just a quick comment by me (before I finish reading the rest of your post):
my understanding is that:
ALL yoma and their yoki abilities, takes/uses yoki to do them. from simple healing or arm extending to even complex Awakeneds' maintaining their Awakened forms or Soul Link.
What makes HAs so "holy grail 'ish", is that:
1. their yoma and yoki abilities require less and less yoki, until ultimately they can have their fully abliities and powers of their full-Awakening WITHOUT actually having unleashed their yoki, and if they were to do so, they'd become even MORE powerful.
2. they can also, resist the yoki and AWakening better, allowing them to control it, instead of having it control them, allowing them to eventually being able to release 100% yoki and Awaken and de-Awaken at will, without losing their (human) minds to becoming yoma minds.
or to put it more simply:
Claymore -> Awakens -> weaker Awakened being
Claymore -> "half-Awakens" becoming a HA -> Awakens -> stronger Awakened being
my own theory of Clare, and an alternative to your idea of Clare and thus how you think yoki and HAs work:
Clare has the "potential", not Priscilla.
1. first, Clare already was an Eye (good yoki sensor) AS A LITTLE HUMAN GIRL CHILD, as she could sense and "recognize, record, and recall" Priscilla's yoki's "signature" ~ 80 chapters later.
her Eye abilities only got better as a Claymore, already rivalling God Eye Galatea's Eye abilities in terms of distance sensing by that "spiderman" (credit goes to J.J. for this "nickname" for it) male AB battle, though Clare couldn't sense emotions like Galatea could. But Clare learned Teresa's PYS ability, which no one has been able to do, except Teresa and Clare.
2. second, Clare HERSELF has MASSIVE power. It is not from Teresa's flesh or Irene's arm. It is Clare HERSELF whom is powerful. However, she is unable to "tap" into this abyssal pool of power within her, which is why she's so weak, with a "puny/tiny" yoki, as we see her being, until she becomes a HA. In becoming a HA, she's now able to start tapping into that MASSIVE power of hers.
Also, Clare can suppress/hide/mask her yoki too, which is also why her yoki is so "tiny/puny".
3. third, Clare herself is extremely stubborn-determined-resolved. So, doesn't quit.
4. fourth, Clare is extremely intelligent and perceptive, allowing her to quickly adapt, learn, and innovate (and immediately see right through Teresa's defenses/masks at how miserable she really was). Irene is shocked at how quickly Clare learned and improved in the Quick Sword. We see countless other examples of this. Clare easily rivals Miria's own intelligence, but Clare can do this while "on her feet, aka engaged in battle", whereas Miria can't, she can only plan ahead of time, and not think as quickly or as smartly as Clare can, while in the "field or engaged in battle".
5. fifth, Clare has an indestructable head.... if her neck is the same... then it's going to be near impossible to kill her (since she can use her PYS to avoid getting hit in her vital organs in her stomach-torso-chest area) if she could also start being able to regenerate herself....
So, Clare's "potential" was her OWN ability/potential to rapidly adapt, learn, innovate, and rise in power. I mean FAST too, exponentially fast, does Clare adapt, learn, innovate, and rise in power.
actually ALL the HAs are becoming more and very powerful...
(also the 3 non-HA Ghosts are also. Cynthia, Yuma, and Tabatha. Especially Yuma, wow! Yuma almost rivals Clare is rapid power development, lol)
Deneve is getting much more offensively powerful (in Undine's memory), as well as being able to regenerate her arm at near no yoki! WOW!
Helen seems able to regenerate now, aka Helen has gotten powerful enough to regenerate. And of course she has Jean's Drill Sword (in Jean's memory), with her extendable arm, making her offensively DEADLY, having both a close and far range utter-destruction Drill Sword attack.
Miria, (finally we're seeing her in action and her power thanks to chapter 106) is clearly much more powerful too taking on these new young-trainee Awakening Twins (unfortunately, we don't know how powerful they are. for all we know they could even have the power of a rank 47 and 46 if they weren't still as trainees). Along with her (slower) "Mirage Step" which doesn't require yoki. And we've yet to see how fast Miria is with her (faster) Phantom Step, and how many times or how long she can use it as well.
Clare, I don't even need to describe her, as we got ~106 chapters that do that for us.
Jean, while brief, was able to do her Drill Sword much more often, then she realized this change in her due to being a HA, lol. Also, she (along with the other HAs) were the only ones, whom Rigardo couldn't kill instantly/easily....
which brings me to Rigardo, which you mentioned about...
my own opinion is this:
Rigardo, being the "military guy" that he is, recognized that Jean, Deneve, Helen, Miria, and Clare weren't dying to him and even doing quite well against him, able to react enough to get out of his way barely and/or even parry his attacks.
However, Rigardo, still had his plan, and it WAS a good one, to wipe out the captains first. This is why he went for them first, even though he realized that some of these "low ranks" were actually better then the captains... After the captains are dead, the Claymores would be in confusion having no leaders, at which time, Rigardo could go take out these "strangely powerful low ranks", and then mop up the rest of the weakling Claymores.
i guess you missed this in my otehr post:
trainee or early Claymore Teresa was probably originally as powerful as Claymore Priscilla was.
(i certainly never said that Teresa was weak. and I'm sure Yagi can come up with a way for Teresa's power and her "Half-Awakening" release of yoki, to go unnoticed... I mean Awakened Priscilla has MASSIVE yoki, and no one noticed her when she released it when she first became an Awakened after killing Teresa, nor afterward, as she could easily suppress it, and when she released her yoki again in the latest chapters, Yagi didn't have the entire island's inhabitants turning their head from feeling Priscilla relase her yoki. In fact, I don't think that any of the Black Coats nor the Ghosts/Claymores know about Priscilla's "emergence/action" onto the scene, yet at all!)
but at some point, Teresa became a HA, which then surged her into having the power that we know her to have, ~ 8 times the power of Priscilla.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 07, 2010 at 11:04 AM.
For this theory, I did not say that Teresa was weak as a pre-RAB child, I said she was not as strong as what she would grow up to be post-RAB. Since nothing in the manga so far came even close to the adult Teresa in power level, even if she were weaker than that as a child, she could still have been near or over the power of an AO as a child. By the time Teresa faced Rosemary, she has already grown into her post-RAB adult power level.
As far as your evidence against the RAB theory goes, I feel none of them stands because yoki-sensing has been consistently portraited as unreliable in the manga. If we were to look at all of the claymores and ABs' expressed opinions about the power levels of other claymores and ABs, those opinions would more often than not prove dead wrong. The ability to sense yoki release also apparently gets fooled frequently; the yoki-sensors are themselves unreliable and do not necessarily report what they sense to the Organization. Note that the Organization didn't sense Teresa's 10% release against Rosemary either (which was presumably far beyond AO level).
Under this theory, when Clare pulled back from going past her limit the first time, she activated her steep RAB power increase she inherited from Teresa. Her first mission after going RAB was to hunt the AB with Miria and friends, at which point Clare got her Teresa-flash and her first dose of significant increase in fighting power (with her "original" power level being judged by her poor actual combat performance in the chapters and the extra scene rather than the opinions of other characters and the Organization).
I mean, Clare defeated Rigardo, a former #2 in AB form, with only her limbs awakened. I think your argument against the RAB theory there was that Clare's raw power did not increase because it was Flora's and Rigardo's opinions that Clare's raw power was weak at that point. To me, that makes absolutely no sense. You can propose alternative theories as to where Clare's raw power comes from, but I feel you cannot say that the RAB theory is refuted simply because Flora and Rigardo thinks Clare has very little raw power (they were, of course, wrong, and, in Rigardo's case, dead wrong).
- - -
Clues that fueled the RAB conjecture:
1) The hints dropped on Teresa's childhood suggested that something significant might have happened with Teresa as a child that might be revealed later which would be relevant to current events.
2) Clare going RAB early in the story followed immediately by the Teresa sidetrack/explanation followed immediately by the Miria AB hunt with Clare going through her first substantial increase in efficacy with Teresa-flash and Miria explaining that they may have all been sent to their deaths for going RAB. This may suggest that the RABing process was central to the main plotline.
3) What did Teresa mean when she said that Priscilla had the potential to surpass her? Later combat proved that the raw yoki power difference between the two at that point was so great that there was no way Priscilla was ever going to be anywhere near Teresa's power. A 10% Teresa was able to toy with an 80% Priscilla to the point that the only time the 10% Teresa exerted any noticeable effort was when Priscilla attacked by surprise (which 10% Teresa was still able to block). Teresa could simply be way off (as many claymores have been) in her estimation of Priscilla's power, but Teresa could also know something we didn't (like the post-RAB increase she might have experienced as a child).
4) In the latest Clare arc, Yagi did not allowed Clare to fully awaken. Did Rafaela learn during the mind merge that Clare intended to fully awaken against Priscilla in order to win? If Rafaela knows about the RAB process (and she very well may), then that may be the mistake to which she refers. Indeed, Clare's chance to defeat Priscilla might not lie in fully awakening, but in not fully awakening and allowing her inherited Teresa RAB-curve to continue its boost to her raw power. This may be something Clare will learn once she manages to access Rafaela's memories (which may include a whole lot of information about what's happened to Teresa as a child).
There are certainly alternative theories to the RAB conjecture, but so far it fits all the major plot points.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 18, 2010 at 10:45 PM. Reason: minor bashing
excellent posts by both of you! well argued stances from both of you!
I hope Yagi will clear up this debate and mystery about Teresa and Clare up at some point, but that might not ever happen.. (cries), so we might jsut be stuck to analyze this on our own.. without an answer from the manga.
anyways, great posts, stances, and support of those stances. keep up the discussions! we need discussions, lots of discussions!
if anyone else has contributions to whichever stance, or have an entirely new stance, please post away!
the more discussions on this the better! Join in everyone!
does anyone want to challenge/pick apart or further support/add to either of these two stances or present their own stance/understanding of this Teresa and Clare mystery ??
please join in if you do! I strongly ENCOURAGE IT! hehe! The more discussion/participation, the better!
as we wait for the next chapter release! hehe.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 18, 2010 at 12:48 AM.
I will be using HA abbreviation (half-awakened) instead of RAB since it better describes the state warriors are in (only Jean could be named RAB) and this term was used in a manga and is not just a term made up by a random user.
And what I've written in the first paragraph of my previous post is not just a theory, since it is supported by facts which can be found in the manga. Your theory however (and not THE theory as if it was absolute truth) has so many holes in it that I would call it speculation at best. Let me extrapolate.
AFAWK Teresa never went far, only to the closest town from the organization which was in a moderate distance that even a handler could easily go to while being bare footed and without any water, food or weapons (and we know that most or all of MiB are humans, it was stated in 106th chapter, also we've seen they were easily defeated by Yuma so at best they're as strong as average Claymores that can't beat youma or AB without any weapons).
In addition, as I've proven earlier Teresa's power was immeasurable. Potential AO stated that her youma energy was crazy (and we know that Teresa at 10-30% of her overall power was much stronger than awakened former #1), Irene stated that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's (~70%) power while having only ~10% of her power (but we don't have to believe her words, we can see it clear as day where she could stop Priscilla's double-handed attack and with a jump too while using only one hand among other things that I won't mention yet). And as I've said earlier we don't have ANY proof that youki pool increases thanks to partial awakening. So if Teresa awakened as a child it would be impossible to not notice. Saying that she wasn't strong enough to be sensed because she was much more powerful later is baseless.
As for your third paragraph in your previous post and all the questions - I feel that they're irrelevant to our discussion but I may as well comment it. We know that MiB do not know about partially awakened Claymores (Rubel made sure of that and I don't see a reason why he would lie about it). If they knew it I doubt they would spend so many years on creating perfect twins (which posed a much greater risk than obedient Claymores whose performance didn't rely on a second party - twin - plus it wasn't that easy to find twins) since all they needed was an army of HAs. They could also produce HA as well as soul-linked twins, although I agree with Rubel - HAs are the key to creating obedient ABs (since at some point Claymores could become like Deneve who has youki at maximum level at all times, i.e. she's over her limit at all times without starting to awaken).
What's more if MiB knew Teresa was HA they would not sent a squad to kill her because she would be too valuable for them - you don't get rid of a standard/prototype unless you have better one. Not to mention they would not send rookie Priscilla to kill her, instead they would make her HA and be assured she was stronger than Teresa. The fact they sent four most powerful Claymores after Teresa and they still lost miserably proves they knew nothing about her, i.e. they couldn't have known she was HA even if she was HA. They would surely perform experiments on her and we know they didn't do it (because Teresa was just too powerful, who could make her do it besides awakened Priscilla?). They would also have no need for black cards (and we know that even in Teresa's time they used them). And mind you, they could prevent awakening of a Claymore if they needed (suppressing pills) but they didn't, i.e. they didn't know about HAs.
As for Priscilla vs. Teresa discussion, I'll ignore it for the time being since it will start next massive discussion (and it's not a place for that) and we should do it here.
Teresa releasing 10% of her youki and Teresa releasing 100% of her youki are two completely different things as I've written in my previous post. Between 10% and 80% there is an abyss, between 80% and 100% also (and from what we've seen the factor by which Teresa's power increased was the biggest of all Claymores ever, since her 10%>Priscilla's 70%), so imagine the difference in power between Teresa's 10% and 100%. In addition during awakening there is no youki control, it's emanating to the fullest, at maximum. So even if Teresa could control the radius of her power output to some degree (and that would explain why no one noticed her fight with Rosemary), she wouldn't be able to do it during awakening.
But let's assume for the sake of argument they couldn't sense Teresa's awakening. It still wouldn't explain why Teresa didn't mention to Priscilla she can go back or that Teresa had such immense energy (again, nothing indicates that youki quantity/youki pool increases so if Teresa had so much youki when she fought Rosemary and Priscilla she must have had as much youki earlier) or that she could control her youki that well or that she would try to awaken even though she was already super powerful or that Priscilla was so powerful without HA.
I disagree with you that Clare had power increase after her Teresa-flash. And so I feel that you didn't understand the scene where Miria and Clare first fought. Clare had power increase the moment she awakened not after the flash (we know this thanks to Miria that realized Clare was watching Mira's flow of youki during the fight). The way I see it Clare was remembering Teresa's flawless swordsmanship and analysed what mistakes she made. Maybe she just dreamed about her but definitely it wasn't the point at which her power increased or where she acquired PYS (pre-emptive youki sensing).
I'm repeating again and again - Clare is special and she can't be used as an example in power increase thanks to partial-awakening. We are yet to see such humongous increase in power as we've seen in Clare. There are no other examples of that. What's more Clare needed to awaken 3 or even 4 times to reach a point at which she could awaken 4 limbs (and she couldn't go back by herself at that time, the same goes for her first HA and third). After that she couldn't do it again for some reason. She's one big mystery for us (at least for now). AFAWK Teresa would need to HA more than once to go from "nearly AO" to much more than AO and I can't see that happening.
Oh, one other thing that supports my opinion Teresa wasn't HA - somehow Rubel knew who half-awakeneds were (he knew about Miria thanks to Ophelia's report but what about Clare, Deneve and Helen?) but we know he didn't know about Teresa (since he admitted Miria was the first partially awakened Claymore he knew about). Don't you find it strange?
As for your clues that fueled the RAB conjecture:
1) Yes and that is MEETING RAFAELLA. If Teresa could kill youma and ABs barehanded (or at least run from them) and she could sense Rafaella that suppressed her youki it only showed how awesome she was. It's also relevant since Clare got all of Rafaella's memories including the ones with Teresa. It's possible that it wasn't their only encounter, maybe they were even friends and Rubel knew about it. Otherwise I wouldn't see a reason why Rubel would start their conversation with "Teresa is dead" part instead of "we need you since we've lost our 5 best warriors". Rafaella's reaction (exclamation mark) also suggests that. Anyways, I feel it's not a clue/hint or whatever you want to call it that Teresa half-awakened. Not even close. Alas, I feel that scene doesn't suggest it at all.
2) Of course it was central. So? What does it have to do with Teresa being HA? HA is a measure for Clare to defeat Priscilla. Without it main hero couldn't power up which is essential for every shounen story. The reason Teresa was introduced after Clare half-awakened was to show how far Clare can go thanks to Teresa. Do you think it would make sense for Clare to inherit a portion of power of someone that wasn't even close to Priscilla's power and had to "cheat" by going over limit? That would suggest that Clare wouldn't be able to beat Priscilla in million years since she received already "tuned up" power.
3) I'll refrain from commenting on that for now since it would require to write even longer post than this one.
4) Again, I feel it's irrelevant to Teresa being HA to which I was referring to and had problems with. As for Clare not becoming AB, if what Deneve said is true Claymores won't even have to awaken to access full power. For partially awakened claymores full awakening is unnecessary and that's why Clare was stopped (or subconsciously stopped herself). Clare has reached the point where she doesn't have to abandon her humanity in order to have access to all her powers, she can somehow utilize the power that's hidden deep in her without resorting to awakening. After all, we know thanks to Deneve that after many partial awakenings claymore's youki is increasing almost to the limit even at normal times but that doesn't make his youki feel stronger and it won't make you a stronger AB, only a stronger Claymore.
Almost forgot , Deneve has super regeneration skills, Helen can do a plastic-man thingy, Miria can do a better phantom, Jean could make drill sword more times, Clare could withstand Irene's arm and last one minute and what does Teresa have?
One more thing (and I'll probably mention it later also) - how would you explain this "thing" that Teresa had on her body and that bandits found appalling and Jean didn't have anything like that (and it's safe to assume other HA didn't have such flaw either)?
Last edited by Goral; August 21, 2010 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Added another argument
I'll use OLR (over-limit reversion) to describe claymores who have gone over their theoretical point-of-no-return on yoki release without losing their humanity instead of HA to avoid confusion with the conventional HA power access theory in this post. Generally, I don't like to split-quote, but I think in this case it will make things more clear.
First of all, it doesn't have to not work all the time to be unreliable, it just needs not to work sometimes. You can list fifty instances of yoki-sensing being right, and it will still be unreliable as long as it has also been known to be wrong. For the last time, if there are many ways for yoki-sensing not to work, then yoki-sensing is unreliable. What exactly did you think "unreliable" meant?
Maybe she fell down a hole as a child and the earth shielded her OLR release? Maybe the Organization's eye at the time sensed it and chose not to report it? Also remember that, under this theory, an OLR release from child Teresa may be substantially weaker than a 10% release from adult Teresa. All the things that can potentially mitigate yoki-sensing do not only come into play when it's convenient for you.
Your logic of "If Teresa had gone through OLR as a child, somebody necessarily would have sensed it and also would have necessarily reported it to the Organization" is invalid. The Organization is fully capable of missing AO level and beyond-AO level yoki release for a number of reasons; they have missed such events for a number of reasons.
We may very well end up with some kind of Rafaela memory of sensing child Teresa's OLR release and not reporting it to the Organization later on in the story.
Remember, at this point in the story Miria conjectured that they have all been sent to their deaths because they were PAs. Just because we don't know who ratted Denever, Helen, and Clare out here doesn't mean nobody has.
The supposition here was that the Organization somehow knew that Deneve, Helen, and Clare have also gone over their limits, which motivated the Organization to send them and Miria on that suicide AB hunt. The Organization may not know as much as Rubel does about the true nature of PAs/OLRs, but they apparently knew enough to send the PAs to their deaths.
A weak claymore who had only partially awakened would stand no chance against Rigardo, who is a fully awakened AB with a #2 claymore pre-awakening raw power. Logically, it would have taken a fully awakened claymore of Irene's power level to fight Rigardo. Just one of her arms on a weak claymore who was only partially awakened wouldn't have had the slightest chance against Rigardo.
Clare was clearly not weak by the time of the Northern Campaign. Aside from characters' opinions, there was no convincing evidence of her being weak. In fact, all evidence besides characters' opinions pointed to her being very strong by the time of the Northern Campaign. Her raw power was simply underestimated by almost everybody, including Rigardo (until it was too late).
You can say that Clare is special and we don't know where her power comes from (ironically, OLR would be one theory that explained where her power came from), but you would obviously be wrong if you say that she was weak by the time of the Northern Campaign simply because it was most claymores' opinion that she was weak (since she was obviously not weak by then).
If they lost control of the twins, they'll just be dealing with another pair of AO-level ABs. Imagine the threat to the Organization if a few long-time OLRs go rogue or awaken after achieving power far beyond that of Priscilla. If that didn't motivate the Organization to send all the OLRs to their deaths and develop twins with finite/locked-in power instead, then not much will.
As for a claymore's power remaining fixed, we have mostly counter-evidence against it (specifically, those of OLR claymores). The ghosts certainly increased in power dramatically. You can offer alternative theories to account for their power increase, but you can't say that their power didn't increase at an extraordinary rate (Rubel was certainly impressed by how much Miria's power had increased in seven years).
Simply asserting that none of their power increase is from an increase in yoki power from OLR does not make it true. Like the OLR theory, the assertion that raw yoki power cannot be increased by OLR is merely a conjecture. If we were to take your fixed yoki conjecture as fact, then there would be no argument. I for one will not take your fixed yoki conjecture as fact. You will have to convince me of it, and you have not come even remotely close to doing that with all your refuted arguments.
However, if PAs are merely claymores who can access more of their fixed potential (which full awakening will release in full), then the highest threat they pose is only as high as that of a non-PA claymore of the same fixed potential pose (i.e. full awakening). If that's the case, then the threat posed by the PAs wouldn't really be that much higher than that of a regular claymore, and executing them would be a very extreme response for considering the level of threat they pose (or, rather, don't pose).
It makes more sense if the PAs pose a much higher threat because their power grows stronger and will make stronger ABs if they have awakened after being a PA for an extended period of time. In this case they pose a significantly higher threat than non-PA claymores precisely because if they awakened much later they would make far more powerful ABs.
excellent post, Sorostaran!
I don't even feel it is about being a HA/ORL.
Yuma vastly improved defeating a rank 14 with ease and doing some miraculous regeneration work on Cynthia and Deneve, and as far as we know she's a regular Claymore (not HA/ORL).
Early (pre-manga) Miria vastly improved and she wasn't a HA/ORL either, going from rank 17 to rank 6.
(normal) Claymores, Ghosts, and HAs/ORLs can all improve. what do they all have in common? they still have their human minds.
we've NEVER seen an Awakened (AB or AO) improve. what do they all have in common? A yoma mind.
the ability to improve and become more powerful comes from having a human mind.
that's my old and still maintained proposition. And so far it is holding up quite well!
How would you explain all the Claymores (such as especially, Miria and Yuma, but they aren't the only ones either), whom have improved/gotten more powerful whom aren't HAs/ORLs ???
I'd be interested in your thoughts on how Miria improved/gotten so powerful (pre-manga) and how Yuma got improved/gotten so powerful!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 20, 2010 at 05:01 PM.
I believe that staying human enables the Claymores to improve their powers slowly with training. While awakening is a shortcut with a seriously bad side effect towards the maximum level of power a Claymore can reach.
Hmmm, To make my point more clear, it's like body builders. Some of them choose the harder and longer way (harsh training and diets) and some others choose the fast way which is injections and pills... (the side effects of injections are known to everyone). As for Claymores, the side effect is losing their humanity by awakening.
This is only an opinion Feel free to discuss if you disagree with me.
I guess I could go further into this theory of mine, and you can see what you think, as you seem interested, hehe
Sorostaran's and Goral's theories are good as well!!
I like to think of yoki as like the Force from Star Wars.
Yoki can do anything:
1. move/activate their own yoma flesh part of the body into doing its inhuman abilities (yoma body abilities). such as: shape shifting (Clare's Partially Awakened legs and arms, normal yomas, the Destroyer, Hellcats, Infected Hosts, AFs/AEs, and Awakeneds), neck twisting (Ophelia), arm twisting (Jean and Helen), arm extension (Helen and Priscilla), muscle bulking (Undine and Priscilla), healing, reattachment, regeneration, projectiles (the Destroyer, Hellcats, and Infected Hosts), rods (Dauf), inhuman strength, and inhuman speed+agility.
2. its very own "magical powers" (yoma yoki abilities). such as PYS (Teresa and Clare), Yoki Manipulation (Galatea), Yoki Control (some of the Pieta ABs), Soul Link (Luciela+Rafaela, Alciia+Beth, trainee Awakening Twins, and AFs/AEs) Quick Sword (Irene and Clare), Shadow Chaser (Nina), Gentle Sword (Audrey), Yoki Sensing, Yoki Suppression, Mind Transfer (Rafaela), Life Transfer (rafaela), and increase/raise strength/power (Galatea).
3. determines their power level
Yoma power (the power level, yoma body's abilities, and yoma yoki's abilities) is entirely determined by their yoki.
So the more that yoki can be "used" (harnessed/utilized/controlled/enabled), the more powerful the being.
It is my theory that the human mind has the potential/ability to fully "use" the yoki, whereas the Yoma mind, doesn't.
So, it is the human mind that allows them to improve their "use" of their yoki. By improving their "use" of yoki they can raise their power level, use more of their yoma body's abilities, and use more of their yoma yoki's abilities.
This explains how Claymores are more powerful then normal yomas, despite that Claymores are only 2/4 yoma, whereas normal yomas are 4/4 yoma.
This also explains why we have NEVER seen a Yoma (normal yomas and Awakeneds, ABs and AOs, including Priscilla) improve (well, except for the cathedral normal yoma, but whatever).
This also explains how Claymores can be more powerful than normal yomas, and even Awakeneds too
This explains why Claymores/Ghosts and HAs can keep improving as well, and why they are so powerful.
Also, let me now talk about my theory about HAs:
Claymore -> Awakening -> weaker Awakened
Claymore -> Awakening -> prevented/stopped/incomplete -> HA Claymore -> Awakening (again) -> stronger Awakened
Being a HA allows a Claymore to have some of the power level and abilities of an Awakened. Also, less yoki is used for abilities than before, meaning they can do those abilities more times or for a longer duration. Lastly, HAs are able to resist Awakening. They can release 80% yoki and not undergo Awakening. It's possible that it is as if the Awakening is raised to 90% for them.
This explains the HAs' power
This also explains Teresa's ultimate power. (this is both Sorostaran's and HK's opinions)
I like to think of it this way: (using DBZ)
SSJ 1 (Claymore) -> SSJ 2 (Awakened)
SSJ 1.5 (HA Claymore) -> SSJ 2.5 (Awakened)
body: limited (duh!, though Raki might be the exception, lol)
Yoma (normal yoma and Awakened, ABs and AOs):
body: limited (due to yoki restriction, aka Awakening)
mind: limited (due to yoki restriction, aka Awakening)
(these characters seem to be between Claymores and HAs)
Half Awaken (HA):
Miria, Deneve, Helen, Clare, and Jean (Deceased)
the "end game" HA: Teresa (Deceased) = both Sorostaran's and HK's opinions
body: unlimited (Teresa = both Sorostaran's and HK's opinions)
mind: unlimited (Teresa = both Sorostaran's and HK's opinions)
The Ultimate Living Warrior Weapon! ("end game" HA Teresa = both Sorostaran's and HK's opinions)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 21, 2010 at 02:40 PM.