Claymore Tournament Discussion Thread

[HegemonKhan]

Goral:

just a small, quick point.

I'd argue that Flora herself doesn't have much reaction time, speed, and agility (at least compared to Rigardo), than HA Jean (and almost-became-HA Undine) had. (And, I think Flora and Clare were ONLY sparring their swordsmanship with their respective sword techniques, Clare-Quick Sword and Flora-Windcutter, and not actually sparring with their bodies/moving around in actual combat sparring. I think they were ONLY clashing their sword techniques against each other).

Flora's Windcutter is obviously fast, once Flora is using it. What I feel happened against Rigardo, is that Flora herself was to slow to start her Windcutter (or do anything, except stand there and die, almost before she even knew it, as she just couldn't react nor move in time, whereas HA Jean and almost-became-HA Undine).

I strongly feel that about Undine, either:

she was much more powerful than her rank 11 (and the Org never updated her yet)

or

Undine's "almost-bame-HA" scene in the Pieta Battle, immediately made her more powerful than her rank 11 status, in time for Rigardo.

[Goral]

@Ryus

I was talking about old Miria too, obviously you haven't read my reply with enough attention. It's been explicitly stated that Miria's new phantom is SLOWER than her old one where she relied on youki bursts. So it doesn't matter she has become stronger and faster overall because with Riful she was only running away and disappearing, i.e. she would do at least as good 7 years ago if it only meant running away, at least for a short distance. Still it would be much better than what Renee did, where she couldn't even escape Riful in her human form and couldn't dodge her attack even though she was supposed to be an eye (thus she should have more of a time advantage than Miria). Miria on the other hand managed to climb up on Riful's head/

Moderator message by: HegemonKhan

chest

/whatever instantly and she didn't react. I doubt that Miria could do her mirage in the air so she had to climb up and she appeared before Riful's eyes so Riful should have seen and/or feel/sense her. And even though she had much longer reach than in her human form she didn't manage to stop Miria.
As for Miria only keeping up with Riguald who was slower than Isley - it's irrelevant. Riful had problems with dodging AFs in her human form and even though she had quite of a time advantage (she saw Alicia going at her) she wasn't fast enough to dodge her attack. She also couldn't hit her, even though she was using simultaneous attacks which just shows how difficult it is for her to deal with small opponents. Her ribbon attacks aren't that fast and the main advantage - spread attack is nullified if her opponent is very fast and small. Also notice that we've never seen awakened Riful moving from her spot during the fight. The one time we've seen her escape wouldn't help her go after Miria since all she could do was to bounce off (and I doubt she could be very accurate, whereas Miria could change directions easily). Well, before she met Audrey we've seen her moving but for some reason she didn't move when she fought Alicia... For her to catch Miria she would have to be in her human form and still it would take her more time than it took her to catch Renee who couldn't even dodge her ribbon attack and even though she was so confident with her legs her first reaction was to draw her sword (i.e. she was overconfident and would be pwned by Riguald like Flora was).

As for Dee, as I've written earlier: After this fight [Nina's team fight] "overall power" of teams hunting down ABs was supposed to increase and yet Dee couldn't defeat her AB. So unless it was much stronger AB than the one Nina fought Dee would lose to Nina. So calling her teammates noobs is completely unsubstantiated, instead we have indirect proof that they should have been better than Nina's backup.

Edit:
It looks like you're right about them being noobs. I've re-read gernot's translation (I should thank heavens for his work) and in his version Deneve clearly says that they were noobs. Although one could wonder how she could make such assessment (she even guessed which numbers they have) if they all increased their power so much that #10 would be an easy prey for them, if #10-20 were there they might think of them as #30-40 (they're not best youki sensors after all).

As for Jean, she did much better than Flora, regardless of reasons. She managed to parry/deflect Rigaldo's attacks until she spoke and warned the others (probably loosing her concentration in the process). Flora knew at the time she might be next and yet she was pwned. To me it's clear who was better here.

if you ignored Teresa and Priscilla of Teresa's generation and Alicia and Beth of Clare's gen... Clare's gen would likely stomp Teresa's gen too and therefore it is Clare's generation being exceptionally strong and not likely Clarice's generation being exceptionally weak.

You're right here but it doesn't change the fact my argument still stays valid. Although Irene would own everyone besides Raphaela, Noel and Sophia would be defeated by Galatea and Ophelia (judging by their stats since there's not much else to rely on). But the thing is, it only proves that what Rubel said, i.e. that Miria has become so much stronger means only that, it doesn't automatically mean this generation is as strong as Teresa's. Since she already was from the most powerful generation we know we can't tell how current warriors compare to the average. And we know too little about Teresa's generation to make that assessment. But relying on what we know, and comparing #3, #5, #6, #8, #9, #47 and how pathetic (especially #3 and #5 which should be exceptional like Galatea, Irene, Riguald, Duff, Agatha, Ophelia) it looks to me this generation lacks in "regular" manpower just like Deneve said.
In your defense speaks however Cynthia's assessment where she believed that among 12 Claymores 2 of them should be single digits, and 2 high single digits.

Anyway, I can't see how Undine would lose to Yuma, there was too much of a gap IMO.

[HegemonKhan]

I personally feel that HA Jean should/would have survived along with the other HAs and be with us in chapter 109 along with them (minus possibly Miria, lol), if she hadn't done that stupid attack with her Drill Sword from so far away against Rigardo.

I don't have a very high impression of Jean being intelligent at all (no offense). Jean is like the opposite of Miria, she's just an idiot/bakai when it comes to battle tactics/intelligence, lol. (IN MY OPINION ONLY) She's an AWFUL/STUPID leader and warrior in terms of combat tactics/intelligence!

[Goral]

I'll quote my animesuki post:

I strongly disagree. Actually Jean is one of my favourite characters. Why do I like her? She's beautiful (if you don't believe I can provide some fanarts or specific pages of the manga), has impregnable spirit, penetrating glance which even Chuck N. would not be able to stand (v8 ch41 p51) but at the same time she's very womanly (just look at her with only a cloak on). In addition she's intelligent, has her own opinion unlike Yuma/Helen/Deneve/Tabitha (v. 9 p. 180), has a way with words (even though she rarely speaks) and doesn't let anyone to manipulate her (v. 8 p.125). What's interesting she went against organization even though she knew that she would be blacklisted all because of her sense of justice, morality and honour. Even Galatea wasn't like that at first. I would even say that it was thanks to Jean's attitude that something triggered in Galatea and she didn't execute MiB's orders. So Jean was also charismatic and influenced people surrounding her. The first thing Jean did after seeing Louvre was asking about Galatea !!! Do I need to comment that? That is not all however, you could say that she's more intelligent than Miria or that at least that she could analyse situation much quicker than her. Guess who noticed first that Riguald attacks only team leaders and warned others? Because of that Riguald went after her and lethally wounded her. She didn't cry like Deneve however. Even though she was greatly injured she still thought about others and not about what will happen to her. In a sense everyone survived thanks to her. The way Yagi got rid of her was the best in the whole manga IMO. Fitting end for one of the best characters there are in Claymore.

Don't know why you think she's a bad leader. In the same situation Miria wouldn't do any better, they were against AO for crying out loud. In fact Miria would awaken or die.

[HegemonKhan]

I'm just addressing her choice to attack (and about her leadership, which I'll get to after this point first):

what was she thinking? That Rigardo would just stand there and wait and let her Drill Sword through his body? Sorry, but Jean is just stupid/bakai in this combat-tactic decision of hers. She's too far away, telegraphs the attack, and hopes that Rigardo will allow it to work? UGHN! Idiotic! Bakainai!

Don't get me wrong, she doesn't want to use her Drill Sword when Rigardo is battling the other Claymores, and damage/kill them instead or along with Rigardo. Also, she of course had to jump/move back in order to twist her arm to ready her Drill Sword, safely, as she didn't have the speed+agility to stay near him and dodge his attacks as she twists her arm up.

But, at the very least, she could have tried to get close to him if/looking for such a opportunity to do so without the others near them, and THEN unleash her Drill Sword at point blank range, right in his furry face (hehe), instead of dive-jump-flying from like 30 ft/m away, and hoping Rigardo will allow her to hit and kill him with her Drill Sword dive-jump-flying attack towards him.

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About Jean's leadership:

Unfortunately we never get to see her as a leader battling it out for both her battle in the Witches Maw against Dauf (BEFORE Clare+Audrey showed up), and in the Pieta Battle.

However, we do know that in both battles, her team was wiped out. Now, it's not Jean's fault being against Dauf, but you'd think she could have tried to retreat possibly succesfully saving maybe 1 of her team mates.

Witches Maw Battle:

Jean, Katea, Raquel, and unknown Claymore.

*Jean survives thanks to Clare's+Galatea's arrival
*Katea is killed by Dauf
*Unknown Claymore is killed by Dauf
*Raquel is allowed to leave, but she'll die in town in Clare's arms, from wounds from Dauf's rod-impalement torture attempt to Awaken the Claymores for Riful acquiring more ABs to compete (jealously) against Isley's build up of ABs (as she herself, and Dauf too, could kill them easily as was indeed seen, so it must have been just because of jealousy that she tried to gather/create her own ABs).

Pieta Battle:

*Jean is killed by Rigardo
*Eliza gets killed
*Amelia gets killed
*Natalie gets killed
*Diana gets killed

Jean herself died as well as not any of her team mates surviving either. Jean failed as a leader compared to the other 4 Claymore teams.

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I do agree with you that otherwise, Jean *IS* intelligent as well as having all of her other admirable characteristics too.

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"(BTW we could make a AFs vs hellcats), one hellcat gave Clare trouble." -leroid


(and an AF/AE nearly killed Helen if it weren't for Deneve using her body and regeneration as a shield for Helen, but Helen still got her sword arm sliced off and her eye damaged or destroyed beyond her ability to heal or regenerate it)

(and the AFs/AEs eventually killed Isley, hehe)

(and the AFs/AEs caused Riful+Dauf some trouble too)

Feel free to post/discuss about them (the AFs/AEs and the hellcats) not being included in the tournament. (through the Destroyer, the hellcats are "in" the tournament however)

as we're interested in your feedback, for improving future tournaments that will come up !!!

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Also, we have winners for the first 2 fights:

Raftela and Yuma

so feel free to further discuss these resulted characters as being the winners of their finished matches.

[Koen]

These polls go too fast if you ask me. I won't have time to elaborate why I voted how I voted if such pace keeps up.

Hey Goral,

Lemme answer to your statement. Claymore tournament is the fourth tournament which is organized after the psyren, reborn and HxH tournament. Going by our experience from the former two, it came to our attention that long term polls lead to a lost of interest by members. We therefore decided to do a lot of polls in a week, this will keep the interest higher since the you can discuss different fights on different days. The interest will be at its maximum (that's what we hope at least).

[HegemonKhan]

We now have winners for the first 4 fights:

Raftela, Yuma, Dietrich, and Deneve

so feel free to further discuss these resulted characters as being the winners of their finished matches.

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We now have winners for the first 6 fights:

Raftela, Yuma, Dietrich, Deneve, Miria, and Audrey

so feel free to further discuss these resulted characters as being the winners of their finished matches.

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We now have winners for the first 8 fights ("round 1", the "weaker" right side of bracket):

Raftela, Yuma, Dietrich, Deneve, Miria, Audrey, Noel, and Galatea

so feel free to further discuss these resulted characters as being the winners of their finished matches.

[su5so]

@Ryus

I was talking about old Miria too, obviously you haven't read my reply with enough attention. It's been explicitly stated that Miria's new phantom is SLOWER than her old one where she relied on youki bursts. So it doesn't matter she has become stronger and faster overall because with Riful she was only running away and disappearing, i.e. she would do at least as good 7 years ago if it only meant running away, at least for a short distance. Still it would be much better than what Renee did, where she couldn't even escape Riful in her human form and couldn't dodge her attack even though she was supposed to be an eye (thus she should have more of a time advantage than Miria). Miria on the other hand managed to climb up on Riful's head/

Moderator message by: HegemonKhan

chest

/whatever instantly and she didn't react. I doubt that Miria could do her mirage in the air so she had to climb up and she appeared before Riful's eyes so Riful should have seen and/or feel/sense her. And even though she had much longer reach than in her human form she didn't manage to stop Miria.
As for Miria only keeping up with Riguald who was slower than Isley - it's irrelevant. Riful had problems with dodging AFs in her human form and even though she had quite of a time advantage (she saw Alicia going at her) she wasn't fast enough to dodge her attack. She also couldn't hit her, even though she was using simultaneous attacks which just shows how difficult it is for her to deal with small opponents. Her ribbon attacks aren't that fast and the main advantage - spread attack is nullified if her opponent is very fast and small. Also notice that we've never seen awakened Riful moving from her spot during the fight. The one time we've seen her escape wouldn't help her go after Miria since all she could do was to bounce off (and I doubt she could be very accurate, whereas Miria could change directions easily). Well, before she met Audrey we've seen her moving but for some reason she didn't move when she fought Alicia... For her to catch Miria she would have to be in her human form and still it would take her more time than it took her to catch Renee who couldn't even dodge her ribbon attack and even though she was so confident with her legs her first reaction was to draw her sword (i.e. she was overconfident and would be pwned by Riguald like Flora was).

Hi, I'm new to the forum, not much English, but I hope I hope everyone understand me.
Friend, I disagree with you;
You said; "Miria could escape Riful's attack from point blank range (not to mention she could sit on her head instantly without her doing anything) using her slower version of her phantom"
This is not true. When Miria Riful body escaped with the number 5, the ribbons we saw, were those who were nailed to the number 5 previously by Riful, were not an attack Riful. ¡Miria not escape Riful's attack from point blank range!

As for Miria only keeping up with Riguald who was slower than Isley, but it's irrelevant? You think Riful it is only Rigardo speed? I think not.
Riful had problems with dodging AFs in her human form, but easy to kill individually, while a centaur Easley could not.
Then Alicia, Riful wasn't fast enough to dodge her attack, but I think Alicia exceeded the level of an abysmal.
Therefore, you said of Riful; (Her ribbon attacks aren't that fast), but I think so were fast. And she showed not difficulty with smaller opponents, After seeing how easily kill the AFs in her human form.

[killy-.-]

u must understand one thing dude, at first AFs are not so good they gain experience learn how to kill someone, as Isley said he defended a couple times against them, at the beginning they werent a problem for him, its not a good example, also today I reread Ophelia vs Clare and Clare + Galatea vs Dauf, all i can say is that ppl love Galatea and thats why she won, Galatea didnt die in the first few chapters, she is a good guy and saved a city, but if u compare Galatea with Ophelia the second one would win, Ophelia lost only two times and every single time against quick sword users, lets be honest folks if Galatea fought a quick sword user she would be choped into pieces as well, look at Dauf vs Galatea, without her special ability after Rifful advices she is worse than Clare ...

[Vengeance]

Not to nit pick or anything but why is it that Clarice who is arguably the weakest Claymore to date even mentioned in this tourni yet Cynthia who is arguably better than at least Deneve was completely left out?

[HegemonKhan]

We can't really talk about this, but you members (non-Staff) are free to discuss it amongst each other, and we'll certainly "listen"/read your posts, using them as feedback to help us improve future tournaments.

[Godeye_Galatea]

Oh no! Two of my faves in the same bracket?! What should I do... I wanted both of them to win! Now it would be really hard for me to vote. I think I have something in mind now. Hmm... This is exciting!

[HegemonKhan]

Anyone want to keep discussing/talking about the first round (first 16 fights)? What you think of the winners or whatever else?

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I'm personally not happy about Irene being eliminated, though Clare still carries on the Quick Sword within the tournament, but still I was fan-favorably rooting for Irene, and now she's eliminated.

I of course think that Irene should have won, lol, as I feel she's uber powerful and would chop poor Dauf into little-mini ginger bread cookie Dauf's, hehe

[Fê - forever alone]

I don't want to keep discussing, but since I couldn't give my thought about this match earlier, I do now.

I also can't see Irene losing, she would come up with a good strategy to find a way to cut Dauf in his soft spots.

She's smart, fast, mentally and physically strong, has good stamina and good youki control.

Besides, Dauf would be all alone in this fight, he woudn't find a way to beat irene without Riful.

[HegemonKhan]

well, cutting Dauf in his soft spots, doesn't win the fight, she has to be able to kill him, and cutting his soft spots doesn't kill him (as Galatea had the same issue, only being able to cut non-vital soft parts of his body).

*Clare couldn't either, both priorly (Witches Maw) and later with her no yoki Windcutter. Only the Drill Sword (Jean's), Awakened Alicia's buzz-saw bladed Awakened body, the AFs/AEs (I think), and Awakened Priscilla were powerful enough to fatally damage (kill) him.

it ultimately (i believe anyways) comes down to whether you think Irene can fatally cut/damage Dauf or not. Is Irene powerful enough to kill Dauf? Is Irene and her Quick Sword more powerful then Dauf's hard skin or not? If not, then it's an attrition battle, and which Dauf would probably win (especially-obviously if he's the more powerful one, whose yoki would last longer than Irene's if this were the case), unless he runs out of yoki first and changes back into his real-true human-appearing body/form.