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Thread: Whitebeard's swastika

  1. #1
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member MrCristian's Avatar
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    Whitebeard's swastika

    I'm sure it was discussed before, but I couldn't find anything related so I'm just curious what's this about.
    Recently I've came across 2 old pages where Whitebeard was mentioned for the first time and I couldn't believe my eyes, how come I didn't notice this before?
    3rd (middle) panel: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-...3-page-13.html
    Whitebeard's back, you can clearly see the swastika.
    First panel: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-...4-page-11.html
    Again, you can clearly see it in the flag. I mean... what the hell was Oda about back then? It's clear that he felt bad or something and he changed it later on, but I still can't understand why he would draw it like that.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shader's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
    Swastika itself is a symbol of various good things, Oda clearly was about this stuff (read wiki i linked) but later prolly lots of peoples was complaining and redactor or smthn make him remove it.
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member MrCristian's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    I know about swastika's , I just didn't know about it being in the manga. I started with the anime, then I read the manga but really quick and didn't put much attention to details. I just wanted to point it out to others and see if there was another meaning to it shown in the manga.
    So far I found this: http://img.mangastream.to/manga/one-piece/159/09.jpg original tattoo

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DEATHBOTT's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    i dont think oda ever revealed why he used a swastika but many mangeka do its as its a symbol in many reliogions and cultures. kishi and kubo have both used them in naruto and bleach. for some reason oda is the only one of the big three who stopped using it in the manga probably because it is pretty noticeable. i personally liked the old version more probably because the new jolly roger is kind of boring and looks like he didnt really try making it look cool. i think kishi kept using it in the manga but the anime adaptions of naruto censored it.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    I came upon that same page a few years ago and did some research after pondering that very same question

    Truth is, the svatiska as a symbol is nearly as old as human civilization - going as far back as the Paleolithic. Before the nazi regime gave it its widespread negative connotation, it was (and still is in indian religions, if Wikipedia can be trusted) used as a symbol for good luck, wealth, and prosperity. In modern japan, the symbol is associated with Buddhism and even used on maps to locate temples.

    So in Whitebeard's case, I would say Oda (as do other mangakas) picked the symbol for its historical meaning, possibly without giving thought to its darker aspects, which after all are essentially perceived in western culture.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Razh's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    I wouldn't give it too much thought. Japanese aren't really burdened by racism problems of the western cultures. So when Kubo draws Ichigo's hilt in the shape of a swastika or when Oda draws a swastika on a pirate flag, it doesn't mean much. Certainly not that he's a nazi. He changed the flag design due to western market, which should be a proof in itself of how important that symbol was to him.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%8D

    Just to clear up any misunderstandings about this "swastika". Oda took it out kindly too avoid any butt hurt feelings that it may inadvertently cause for the international fans. There is a slight difference between the swastika and the manji. The manji is based off of the heavy influence of Buddhism in Japan. It's by no means intended to be racist. Although, I have this really subtle suspicion that the Japanese are obsessed with German culture based off of a couple of works. To name a few (...Bleach, Valvrave, FMA)

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Th232's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    for all that's worth Oda didn't use a Swastika (crossed "SS" 卐) but a Reverse Swastika (crossed "ZZ" 卍).

    The reverse swastika "卍" or "Manji", being a kanji and all, is part of the japanese language. It doesn't mean "Nazi" just because they used it a thousand years after it was commonly used in asia and i think it means good things or balance or something in its original meaning... it's easy to misunderstand without being born in East Asia or being a fan of History Channel and that's probably why they made Oda change it to the Anime Jolly Roger.

    It's not uncommon for other mangakas to use that symbol. The main character of Blade of the Immortal (Mugen no Juunin) takes the name Manji (written "卍") and has a big 卍 on his back.

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    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Beatrice's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    Quite sure this has absolutely nothing to do with Racism or National Socialism it's a reversed one.
    It's not a Swastika but "Sauwastika".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member RedBerserk's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    Like Th232 said, that's a Manji and iirc symbolize something of unknown/unlimited power or potential.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Razh's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by JetPistol View Post
    Although, I have this really subtle suspicion that the Japanese are obsessed with German culture based off of a couple of works. To name a few (...Bleach, Valvrave, FMA)
    Well basing fictional villains on the most notorious villainous organization in history is not something I would call obsession.

    It's not like nazi themed villains or characters are predominant in japan's fiction work. They base their stories on everyone and everything.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member RichardMNixon's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    The Nazis also rotated the symbol 45 degrees (such that if you filled it in, it would be a diamond rather than a square). Whitebeard's is squared on the bottom like the Asian source.
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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    Jesus Christ, talk about ignorant.

    Is it ignorant on Oda's part for using a symbol that similar to the Nazi's symbol? Well not really a coincident since the Nazi was intentionally used this Indian symbol because they thought the White Aryan came from there. Or is it ignorant for people not to know this religious symbol that common to Buddhism and Hinduism (I would argue Taoism too since in China they mix everything up) and then cry wolf about it? Yes yes yes yes yes yes, freaking yes.

    You can go watch old chinese television series with Buddhism and you can see that sign everywhere as a seal to demons.

    I almost get detention for drawing it when I just got here on the USA. And when I told my teacher that was a religious symbol. Am I ignorant of WW2 history back then? Sure I was, because I came from vietnam where we didn't spent on that much time studying about it just like usa spent a day in school studying about vietnam war. Is she ignorant about the fact and still insist that she was right after my explanation? YES YES YES YES freaking yes.

    Why would billions of people who used this for thousand of year as a symbol of peace should be responsible for the monstrosity of that of the Nazi?

    There are plenty in manga/comic too especially old ones. One example is Yu Yu Hakusho.

    ---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCristian View Post
    Again, you can clearly see it in the flag. I mean... what the hell was Oda about back then? It's clear that he felt bad or something and he changed it later on, but I still can't understand why he would draw it like that.
    I hope now you understand. And use logic when you see one, especially if you see it in Yu Yu Hakusho. I can understand why western audience mistake that in One Piece since Whitebeard is well "White"beard. But I would call is ignorant and racism for not knowing Asian culture if that was your charge on Oda. I really wish Oda didn't change it because then he looks guilty. I really Jinx didn't change its face to purple. I am a progressive liberal. I fight for equality. I don't fight for stupid ignorant sensitivity. Not you really, but some educated people with authority who don't do their damn research but open their goddam mouth and cry wolf about everything.

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    Last edited by weixiaobao; January 13, 2014 at 10:16 AM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member MrCristian's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    I was having doubts about it's meaning and I popped (not pooped, OK?! ) the question in order to clarify my doubts. I had knowledge about some of the symbols, but I didn't know in which way they were used in the manga. Now I know, so stop hating. You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Re: Whitebeard's swastika

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCristian View Post
    I was having doubts about it's meaning and I popped (not pooped, OK?! ) the question in order to clarify my doubts. I had knowledge about some of the symbols, but I didn't know in which way they were used in the manga. Now I know, so stop hating. You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!
    Use your term right, when you say "ignorant." I am ignorant of what? I am not criticizing you per say. I am criticizing the ignorant sensitivity culture.

    And even you, you were "ignorant" of the history of this symbol. Hence, I and many had "inform" you of the matter. Beside, from your tone, you said something along the like "what the hell is Oda thinking?" And you used, "he felt bad about something." You already charge him with the crime. Your post was trying to get people to verify this and or assure your judgement in the first place. The educated African American lady have an article ranted on how racist is pokemon. Her tone was even worst than yours.

    Yes, accusing someone of racism or ignorant is not a good thing when you were indeed "ignorant" of the issue.

    I don't fault you, because you are the norm. Not too many westerners know this. But you are open to criticism, once you open your mouth and think Oda had done something wrong or being ignorant while you, yourself, is ignorant of the matter (like my history teacher).

    ---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCristian View Post
    You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!
    I don't know how old you are, currently, I am extremely well verse in WWII history and had been this way for more than 8 years. I probably know more about European/American history/culture than you know about Asia history/culture. I probably know more than the average westerner. Consider most Americans can't tell their first 4 presidents. And they probably don't know where Malaysia is on the map.

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