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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #916
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    I was always of the opinion that Kurama simply restored his chakra overtime, and that he's at his maximum power as we speak. I remember it being stated that once a bijuu dies while in it's host or whatever, it's reborn later... pretty much out of thin air. We also see that bijuu can regenerate. Kurama seems to regenerate far faster than the average bijuu aswell, simply by regaining chakra.

    So, why would it be far fetched to believe that over time he simply regained all the chakra he lost thanks to Minato's seal? Matter of factly, it'd explain why Naruto's seal was gradually weakening: because Kurama was gradually getting stronger.

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  3. #917
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    To be fair though, I think there's a difference in size between those trees, cause Minato and Kushina on top of one isn't that high. Anyway, the Kyuubi is bigger, but not that much bigger then the giant snake and giant toad summons. And Gamabunta did hold the Kyuubi down, so the size difference couldn't have been that much. The point is, that if the Kyuubi was really half the size now, it would have to be smaller then the other Bijuus and giant summons, which it's not.
    The tree Minato and Kushina were on was on top of a cliff, which I'm sure would be bigger than the trees when Naruto fought Gaara. In the link, we see Kyuubi crouched, though. The toad and the snake didn't look that crouched or lower than they really are, while the Kyuubi's knees looked pretty bent.

    That's a bad logic though. What if it was significantly bigger than the other bijuu at full power, and shrank to their size when it had half its chakra taken away? It makes no sense that sealing Kyuubi's chakra shrinks it, but having its chakra stolen and it attempting to use more chakra only results in it becoming emancipated.

    Bunta could have been heavy enough to hold it down.


    I think Naruto beat the half-powered Kyuubi while Hiruzen and Konoha pushed backed the full powered Kyuubi.

  4. #918
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @M3J

    So you think Kurama having the same zise with the other biju's in the past and having the same size NOW its not an indication that it has its chakra back? How could he have the normal size with half chakra when we noticed it going smaller? To state that a page showing all the bijus are at the same size means nothing is "wtf" moment...
    I even posted a non-canon link above with Kurama having the same size in that fight Hashirama vs Madara like it has now... Yes not canon but i am sure Kishi agrees to the crep its put there.... If Kurama was 2x that size it would probably be seen just as well there...

    Fact is Kurama was the SAME SIZE as all the other biju's before the seal and it has the SAME SIZE NOW in Naruto's mind and in the real world in chakra mode... So please tell me how the hell is it at half chakra when it is full size and not half size...


    Quote Quote:
    That's a bad logic though. What if it was significantly bigger than the other bijuu at full power, and shrank to their size when it had half its chakra taken away?
    Because Kurma was NEVER 2x the size of the other bjus... It was ALWAYS the same size... Posted manga panels of it having the SAME SIZE as all of them... So use something VALID as this is nonsense at this point. At this point you people just IGNORE manga panels with Kurama having the SAME SIZE as all the other bijus to support your point...

    I am curently facepalming at the notion that you people don't think its possible (key word possible)for Kurama to generate its chakra back... How is this not posible? How can you people not agree that its POSSIBLE? We are all asuming here but not agree that its possible... Its mind boggling to me man.
    We know it can be KILLED and have ALL its chakra dispersed and in time it would pop back into play at 100%... Hell i gave you an example before... Someone can take a part of my blood away, PERMANENTLY just like Minato did with Kurama's chakra but i can generate more in time. If its possible or not to regenerate said chakra back was NEVER addressed... So you need to look at other factors to deduce IF its at half power or not. You needing direct links where it is stated its no longer at full power is nonsense... It was never stated it can't get back to full power in the first place.

    The trees stuff where already addressed...Not only that it could be diferent trees. Some grow taller then others. Some are older then others (so bigger). Its hard to judge. Try the buldings and how Kurama is not that much bigger then the snake summon and frog summon (links by RK).

    @Uchiha_Blood

    First off you are again trying to you read what you whant to read so you can rationalize that nonsense...
    To state he knows all the jutsus in Konoha when he actualy knows half of them because he does not have bugs or whatever... Yeah that line would be meaningless... It was not stated that he can PERFORM them all, just that he KNOWS them all... So he could know how wood element is performed but not able to perform it... You are looking at it like it was stated how he can do them... He was just stated HE KNOWS them. No need to have any special crep to KNOW them...
    Anyway the KNOW them has some value but to also perform even those that would only need the 5 elemental affinities would be... Stupid to say the least... Perhaps it was possible in part 1 lol.

    Quote Quote:
    who was showed to memorize the seals needed for the Death God seal at first glance and remember them after 13 years without a problem
    Emm he knew the seals before noticing Minato use them... If he did not know the seals before Minato started forming said handseals then he would not know what Minato was doing there. Perhaps he needed weeks to learn them...
    Quote Quote:
    And no, Kakashi said he had an affinity for lightning, but could use other elements as well
    Nop... He said he is most compatible with Raiton but he is compatible with the rest just as well... aka my strongest affinity is Raiton but my other affinities are Doton and Suiton...

    Quote Quote:
    If he had more than one affinity, why, when he did the test with the paper, it showed only Raiton?
    The thing probably just shows what you have the most compatibility with. Your strongest affinity. Its properties probably does not allow all the crep to happen at it, just 1 of them, your strongest affinity.

    Quote Quote:
    Look at what he says here, he's not surprised at the number, he's surprised at the level of the ninjutsus for element
    At that point it was ONLY 3 of them man... Of course he is not going Oo that he can use 3 bloody afinities... Kakashi HIMSELF can use 3 of them so why go Oo at it? Makes no sense when he himself can do that. Of course he was impresed by how strong he could use 3 afinities but then when he used 4 Kakashi stated what i linked you. The fact that he could use 4 affinities was impresive at that point... Again link AFTER 4 affinities where showed:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/335/7

    At that point it was about affinities.
    Last edited by xXan; January 15, 2013 at 03:29 AM.

  5. #919
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Oh god, this again.

    Kishi's old word that no longer holds any significance in terms of what we've seen on screen. The Third's fight with Orochimaru is in retrospect a chuunin fight now, a fight previously described as "Kage level" by an ANBU captain, that includes Hashirama who also acted like a chuunin compared to what he should be able to do.

    Age is no excuse. Danzou fought well and was older than Sarutobi. Oonoki whom is far older than Sarutobi ever was, is kicking ass. And I deem it an impossibility for Sarutobi to counter Oonoki's Dust Release, and Sandaime Raikage's speed combined with defense + attack power. GG Kishi.

    Heck, even Dan said "the only one who can stop Madara is the First Hokage". It's not rocket science that Kishi has decided that The First > The Third ever since the Senju-Uchiha plot increased its importance.
    Well to be fair...

    Kishi vastly changed Hashirama's powers and retconned a bunch of stuff. I would not be surprised at all if he now changes things to make the 3rd Hokage way stronger than he was shown before, too.

    Regardless, I'm tired of Senju-this, and Uchiha-that.

  6. #920
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    On Kyuubi's dimensions, the below post shows perfectly that Kyuubi still hasn't recovered the chakra Yondaime sealed away

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto2011 View Post
    ive been looking at some scans to see if kurama is trily the same size and i found this...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c504/9.html

    here kurama has shrunken already and he is clearly large even too humans just look at the middle panel with his nail pierced in minato and kushina, now look at his hand the previous time when he was bigger...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c504/7.html

    huge difference there, now lets look at one of kuramas recent fist bumps with naruto...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c570/11.html

    see what im saying?? if Kurama was full size, his fist would be WAY bigger than naruto, look here too

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c570/9.html

    that is the size kurama was when he got shrunken
    I used to believe kurama recovered all his chakra, but now im of the opinion that minato didnt just take his chakra but halved his chakra capacity
    You see no difference in dimensions between the shrunken Kyuubi that pierced Kushina and Yondaime and the one that fist-bumped Naruto

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That or he downright trolled us
    If he gave us a crystal-clear picture of everything, would we hit 40 pages which began about Hiruzen and completely turned into a random discussion

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

    Yeah, we probably would, but he still helped
    And what about the OP having a single post out of all 587?
    OP threw a meteor and then fled, while we are still debating about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I've seen a different translation mentioning needing the natures. Sasuke had no trouble transforming his chakra into fire nature. He did so in the first try, though the flames weren't enough for the actual technique, and it took just a week practicing to fully master the technique. And we haven't seen Kakashi have any trouble in that regard. Let's not forget that he was praised mainly for his intelligences.
    No trouble? To master a measly C rank jutsu Sasuke required a week of non-stop training, while, a few years later, he mastered Raiton, according to Kakashi, in a few days ( which is overly impressive ).
    Its also confirmed Sasuke's affinity is Raiton

    xXan

    Kindly provide evidence to disprove Orochimaru's claim ( someone who had no reason to lie and expecially someone who trained years under Hiruzen, and thus knew all about him ), and for evidence I mean someone saying that Hiruzen doesn't know all the jutsus in Konoha
    As well as secondary affinities not being showed in the papers, or people saying is impossible to have anything more than his own affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Why don't they? Why wouldn't he know about kekkei genkai, hijutsu (we saw him use at least two), or personal jutsu like raikiri? He's worked with the Uchiha at least once before and likely worked with Hyuuga. Sarutobi clan is even said to bring INo-Shika-Cho clan together or something.
    Well it would be kinda impossible for him to use Gekkei Kenkai jutsus, since he lacks the genetics to do it as well as Hijutsus such as Aburame's ( which need bugs ) or Hyuuga's ( which needs the Byakugan ).
    As for personal jutsus, it was my guess, even though its reasonable he had a grasp of some jutsus if of course the inventor of said jutsu was okay with teaching it to him.
    We know Yondaime teached only Jiraiya the Rasengan, and Kakashi somehow copied it with his Sharingan ( we don't know if he copied Yondaime or Jiraiya )

  7. #921
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    If I remember correctly, minato, the one who sealed the kyubi to naruto stated that he sealed half of the kyubi's power. And then jiraiya confirmed that. So what's the point of debating on something that's already clear in the manga? It's already a fact that the kyubi right now has just half of his power. And even if naruto's seal is weakened because the kyubi is getting stronger, but it doesn't mean the kyubi already regained his half power.

    It's just the kyubi's half power is getting stronger and stronger.

  8. #922
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @Uchiha_Blood

    So we got to a point where we are posting the same things over and over again hopping for new arguments to pop out? Sure i can do that to. Here(but i am sure no new arguments are going to "pop"):
    Quote Quote:
    Kurama's size:

    Kurama is the same damn size as all the other bijus:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

    Same size here still:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/7
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/8
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/10
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/9
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/13

    I can post more links but no point. Kishi just messed up with his drawings or decided they need to be small now.

    Then in the mind world they all look the same size:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/6

    Then look how big is a human on monkey boy's head:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/8

    Look at Bee also:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/536/4

    Close to this no:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/538/17
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/539

    Damn close eh? Naruto is the same size as the eye(well more or less).

    Now let's compare THE HAND SIZE as the above poster did:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/570/11

    bottom panel please. Now imagine an open hand... IS IT NOT close to this:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

    Keep in mind that first hand is that of a monkey SO LARGER then that of a FOX.

    No idea where it started and how big they where supposed to be but they are not NOW
    That post you quoted does NOT invalidate what me, ninjabot, Rikudou King and others belive.

    Quote Quote:
    Kindly provide evidence to disprove Orochimaru's claim ( someone who had no reason to lie and expecially someone who trained years under Hiruzen, and thus knew all about him ), and for evidence I mean someone saying that Hiruzen doesn't know all the jutsus in Konoha
    As well as secondary affinities not being showed in the papers, or people saying is impossible to have anything more than his own affinity
    Part 1... Hype, praise, baiting and making fun of him... You can't posibly take those words as serious... Words claiming that he knows ALL the jutsus in Konoha...
    Hell Sarutobi aparently knew the DG seal and ET summons but he had NO idea that crep sealed with DG can't be summoned back in the word... Figure that...
    You whant more? Nagato was GOD going for crep praise nonsense... He could not lose... Well gues what he was God and he could not lose only before meeting Naruto... If you whant to leave in the concept that Sarutobi could know every single jutsu in Konoha then be my gues... I gues he also could do Harem no jutsu if we are at this... Oh and the words used there to atribute Sarutobi's information of all the jutsus in Konoha was not to denote a fact, it was to denote a rumor that he would know them... You don't even a fact coming from Orochimaru's words.

    As for the second part.. Show me people claiming that its posible to have more then 3 please. You do that then i do what you asked.. But i hope you are not going to ignore how Kakashi was refering to 3 elements in your link and then about afinities when its 4+ elements... Ignoring and trying to derail the conversation with nonsense (asking me to provide non existing facts) its so not... Logical... We where arguing the links provided by you, aparently you had nothing to add to it and so decided to change to "present links for bla bla bla"...

    @marshall313

    No actualy what Minato said contradicts what Jman stated. Its not yin/yang... Its half its chakra... Minato would have sealed more but it was physicaly imposible to do so. Its just CHAKRA.

  9. #923
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @M3J

    So you think Kurama having the same zise with the other biju's in the past and having the same size NOW its not an indication that it has its chakra back? How could he have the normal size with half chakra when we noticed it going smaller? To state that a page showing all the bijus are at the same size means nothing is "wtf" moment...
    I even posted a non-canon link above with Kurama having the same size in that fight Hashirama vs Madara like it has now... Yes not canon but i am sure Kishi agrees to the crep its put there.... If Kurama was 2x that size it would probably be seen just as well there...
    Wait, when was it shown that the fully grown Kyuubi was the same size as other bijuu? The only time we see them together is during the war, after Kyuubi had half its chakra sealed in Minato. The Kyuubi that attacked Konoha seemed much larger than the Ichibi that came out of Gaara.

    How is it "wtf" moment? THat's like me telling you I took away few apples, showing you a basket of apples, and asking you to guess how many there were originally and how many I took away. You can't guess because you don't know how many apples there were originally or how many were taken away. Same applies with the Kyuubi - you don't know how tall it was in comparison to the other bijuu before it had its chakra sealed. Hell, for all we know the bijuu's true size is 2x bigger than what we've seen when the jinchuuriki transformed. I think the turtle is the only bijuu we've seen free, and it was nowhere as big as the Kyuubi, if I recall. If you're confused as to what bijuu I'm talking about, it's the one that Deidara and Tobi got with Deidara's bakuton.

    Quote Quote:
    Fact is Kurama was the SAME SIZE as all the other biju's before the seal and it has the SAME SIZE NOW in Naruto's mind and in the real world in chakra mode... So please tell me how the hell is it at half chakra when it is full size and not half size...
    That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.




    Quote Quote:
    Because Kurma was NEVER 2x the size of the other bjus... It was ALWAYS the same size... Posted manga panels of it having the SAME SIZE as all of them... So use something VALID as this is nonsense at this point. At this point you people just IGNORE manga panels with Kurama having the SAME SIZE as all the other bijus to support your point...
    Proof? You only posted manga panels having it same size AFTER it had half its chakra sealed. I'm ignoring nothing, I even pointed out why I"m not using that as a fact or basis for Kyuubi having its whole chakra back. All we have to go by are comparisons. Kyuubi easily towered over the trees on four legs while Ichibi and Bunta were few meters taller than the trees.

    Quote Quote:
    I am curently facepalming at the notion that you people don't think its possible (key word possible)for Kurama to generate its chakra back... How is this not posible? How can you people not agree that its POSSIBLE? We are all asuming here but not agree that its possible... Its mind boggling to me man.
    We know it can be KILLED and have ALL its chakra dispersed and in time it would pop back into play at 100%... Hell i gave you an example before... Someone can take a part of my blood away, PERMANENTLY just like Minato did with Kurama's chakra but i can generate more in time. If its possible or not to regenerate said chakra back was NEVER addressed... So you need to look at other factors to deduce IF its at half power or not. You needing direct links where it is stated its no longer at full power is nonsense... It was never stated it can't get back to full power in the first place.
    Of course it's mind boggling to you. But how does Minato saying he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra contradict what Jiraiya said? Minato never said he didn't seal ying or yang, or could have done so and meant half of its chakra.

    We don't know that it can be killed but regenerate. We take it as fact only because it was said so, but we haven't seen it in action, have we?

    I did look at other factors, and I did show links and comparison about its size. Once again, why would Minato seal half of its chakra in himself when it'd just recover its chakra in few years?

    Quote Quote:
    The trees stuff where already addressed...Not only that it could be diferent trees. Some grow taller then others. Some are older then others (so bigger). Its hard to judge. Try the buldings and how Kurama is not that much bigger then the snake summon and frog summon (links by RK).
    I doubt the trees that Naruto and Killerbee fought the jinchuuriki in or the trees in Naruto vs. Gaara are taller than the tree on top of the cliff that Minato and Kushina were on, which Kyuubi easily towered over.

    And like I said, Kyuubi was crouching pretty low, at least compared to the frog and snakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post

    Well it would be kinda impossible for him to use Gekkei Kenkai jutsus, since he lacks the genetics to do it as well as Hijutsus such as Aburame's ( which need bugs ) or Hyuuga's ( which needs the Byakugan ).
    As for personal jutsus, it was my guess, even though its reasonable he had a grasp of some jutsus if of course the inventor of said jutsu was okay with teaching it to him.
    We know Yondaime teached only Jiraiya the Rasengan, and Kakashi somehow copied it with his Sharingan ( we don't know if he copied Yondaime or Jiraiya )
    I never mentioned him using the jutsu, I was talking about Hiruzen knowing or knowing about the jutsu. Why would Hiruzen not know about Hyuuga's kekkei genkai jutsu when even Kakashi knows it?

    We don't know that. I doubt Minato didn't teach Kakashi rasengan, considering chidori was created to replace rasengan, and used before Kakashi ever got his Sharingan. I'm sure Hiruzen knows about chidori and raikiri, as well as rasengan as they're signature jutsu of famous shinobi.

    In any case, Hiruzen in his prime probably wouldn't have been able to kill Orochimaru that invaded Konoha, or after the invasion. Even Four-Tailed Kyuubi failed to do that, and Sasuke would have lost if it weren't for genjutsu or plot. Orochimaru was almost unkillable, needing something like bijuu cannon (in his own words anyway) to fully kill him.

  10. #924
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    No, I'm well aware of the difference. And how does Madara saying that change the fact that it was shown he was nearly defeated had he not called upon the Rinnengan? If anything, it proves my point, that the powerlevels can't be decided simply by who defeats who.
    It doesn't change it. I'm not talking about Madara here so I don't care whether it changes anything or not.

    Quote Quote:
    He states they had guessed how he had gained the Rinnegan, and thus their experiments.
    Pretty sure he said they simply guessed that the Sharingan evolve into Rinnegan.

    Quote Quote:
    Don't recall that term ever being used in the series, and physical techniques are taijutsu. Pretty sure Tenten is proof of this. Yeah, the Rasengan would be, since it was pure chakra that's meant to be transformed into an element. What else would it fall under? I already brought you the pages, you're just choosing to ignore them.
    Taijutsu means body techniques, thus hand to hand combat. Weapon skills are Bukijutsu (Weapon techniques).

    Into the bold part. The Rasengan is not Yin and Yang technique, it's simply chakra Manipulation. It was stated to be the highest possible level of chakra manipulation. You don't understand, pure chakra is not Yin and Yang. Yin-Yang in of it self is a chakra nature (just like the other five).

    Quote Quote:
    We were told by Obito that Yin was spiritual manipulation and Yang was physical manipulation. I'm not even the only person in this thread to point this out to you.
    Yes, but here, Obito says Yin and Yang. Had the frog meant the same thing, why couldn't he just say Yin and Yang ? Yin and Yang again, is a chakra element as it is, it can't be what the frog meant.

    Quote Quote:
    The chakra that was sealed was lost forever, but nothing prevents the Kyuubi from creating more to replace it. Just like how Orochimaru had the soul portion of his arm taken, but that didn't prevent him from still being able to move them or use some techniques. Fact remains, we know the Kyuubi is back to normal size.
    Orochimaru until the very end couldn't use them. Yep, everything you said is useless with this. And nice try in the bold part...

    Quote Quote:
    So if something goes against your argument, it's a mistranslation? Can you "show" the right translation then? Orochimaru isn't different. They both got hit by the same technique. The Kyuubi shrunk because it's made up of chakra. Half being taken would of course make it smaller. It's not an assumption when we see the Kyuubi back to normal, have the toads mentioning Naruto using the Kyuub's full power, and have the Kyuubi mentioning creating more chakra. You're the one arguing against fact, as there is nothing in the series mentioning any sort of "halved chakra capacity" as you claimed.
    Here is your right translation. The toad said something else, but you with your special ability to change proofs to suit your argument made it into a proof. The Kyuubi was simply restoring his chakra, the same way Naruto restores his sage mode chakra. And halving the Kyuubi's chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to catch on. He lost half of it forever done.

    Quote Quote:
    See previous link. He mentions that Yin is responsible for form and was used by the Rikudou Sennin to grant the Bijuus so.
    He used Yin-Yang to create them. He didn't say they will perish without any of the two. I create something with my hand, will it perish if I take my hand away from it ? He used his own Yin-Yang release jutsu called "Banbutsu Sōzō" to create them. And that's that. Stop changing what was said, seriously, in your case this is a talent.

    Quote Quote:
    Really? Gamabunta's big enough to hold it down and wrap it's hand around it's arm. That would be impossible if the Kyuubi was "far" bigger.
    You should see in that link that Gamabunta as a whole is as big as the Kyuubi's head (Including the neck). As he used all of his body mass just to pin down the head, otherwise they would've shown a panel including all of the Kyuubi's body not simply Gamabunta sitting on his head (while grabbing his arms). The Kyuubi isn't a flying head and arms you know. And don't show me the next page, I saw it, nothing to negate my argument.

    Quote Quote:
    We see it sacrificing it's own life, far different then it's normal method. And then I brought up Nagato as a similar example. No need to be facetious, since despite your "claim", you're still arguing.
    You made an assumption after seeing it drained out of power, that's all. A direct statement of it using it's life force was never shown. There was nothing about using your own life force in the Narutoverse to begin with. I simply pointed out I didn't accept it, simply sick of it. That's not arguing, that's simply making my point clear.

    Quote Quote:
    That's ridiculous. Not once did I ever claim to be making things up. The only time I claim to be doing like you was with the sarcasm. How you came up with such a conclusion, I don't even know. Either you know I'm right and are doing it on purpose, or you're skimming my replies...
    Here is what you said :
    Quote Quote:
    You brought a situational example, and I countered with another showing differently. I haven't changed anything.
    The first situational example was the one you claimed to be made up when you said "I'm using actual evidence, not trying to make things up". Seeing as you countered with another means your admitting you either used a made up evidence\example or simply lied about me making things up.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering I not once claimed that using an instant win technique was a feat, not sure how you can say I had said it before. And no, it was about Sasuke and the Kages, which you disagreed with.
    You didn't say they weren't feats when you were using Hidan and Kisame as an example. And no, when we were talking about the people that defeated Bijuu, I asked whether you really believed those people could one shot Hiruzen. This was in no way related to Sasuke and the Kages.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 15, 2013 at 12:18 PM.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    xXan

    Don't be mad, we are discussing a manga

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    That post you quoted does NOT invalidate what me, ninjabot, Rikudou King and others belive.
    It actually does, since your post is based on 2 things:

    -Kyuubi is the same dimension than other Bijuus
    -Naruto's Bijuu mode is the same as Kyuubi

    Both aren't right, or rather the first is unconfirmed, and in the second you don't keep in mind that, in Bijuu mode, their chakra is melded, thus its not Kyuubi, but Naruto+Kyuubi.

    Naruto2011's post, on the other hand, makes a direct comparison between the sealed Kyuubi and the actual Kyuubi.
    Fact is Kyuubi didn't grew one bit after 16 years

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Part 1... Hype, praise, baiting and making fun of him... You can't posibly take those words as serious... Words claiming that he knows ALL the jutsus in Konoha...
    Hell Sarutobi aparently knew the DG seal and ET summons but he had NO idea that crep sealed with DG can't be summoned back in the word... Figure that...
    You whant more? Nagato was GOD going for crep praise nonsense... He could not lose... Well gues what he was God and he could not lose only before meeting Naruto... If you whant to leave in the concept that Sarutobi could know every single jutsu in Konoha then be my gues... I gues he also could do Harem no jutsu if we are at this... Oh and the words used there to atribute Sarutobi's information of all the jutsus in Konoha was not to denote a fact, it was to denote a rumor that he would know them... You don't even a fact coming from Orochimaru's words.

    As for the second part.. Show me people claiming that its posible to have more then 3 please. You do that then i do what you asked.. But i hope you are not going to ignore how Kakashi was refering to 3 elements in your link and then about afinities when its 4+ elements... Ignoring and trying to derail the conversation with nonsense (asking me to provide non existing facts) its so not... Logical... We where arguing the links provided by you, aparently you had nothing to add to it and so decided to change to "present links for bla bla bla"...
    What Nagato being a God has to do with anything?
    Orochimaru's claim wasn't disproven, neither it was a rumor since, again, Orochimaru wasn't a stranger, but was Hiruzen's prized disciple, as such he surely knew well his sensei. Would you argue that, say, Naruto doesn't know all there is to know about Kakashi? Or Shikamaru about Asuma?

    As for part 2, Kakashi also thought Rikudou was a mith, that the Sharingan was derived from the Byakugan and so on
    If, say, Madara, or Obito, or Hashirama would've said something like that I would agree with you, but Kakashi was disproven countless times. His knowledge is the average ninja knowledge, he also said, if I remember right, that FRS was impossible
    And talking about hype and whatnot, Kakashi's comment was made to hype Kakuzu as well.

    Point being, who is more believable, someone who knows all about Hiruzen, or someone who was proven to be wrong time and time again?


    Quote Quote:
    @marshall313

    No actualy what Minato said contradicts what Jman stated. Its not yin/yang... Its half its chakra... Minato would have sealed more but it was physicaly imposible to do so. Its just CHAKRA.
    Proof that Kyuubi's Yin is more prominent than its Yang?
    Yondaime sealing the Yin half ( or Yang half, can't really remember ) implies he sealed half of the total being of the Kyuubi ( 50% Yin 50% yang ), as such Yondaime's claim didn't contradicts Jiraiya's.
    Seeing as Orochimaru's hands couldn't be restored even after changing bodies, its pretty much confirmed that what is sealed inside the Shinigami is sealed forever, as Yondaime himself said, sealing half of Kyuubi's power forever, that is.
    It would be pretty dumb to believe he meant "I will seal half of Kyuubi's chakra forever... But he'll just recover it in a month or two, which means basically I'm throwing away my life for nothing lulz!!!1!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I never mentioned him using the jutsu, I was talking about Hiruzen knowing or knowing about the jutsu. Why would Hiruzen not know about Hyuuga's kekkei genkai jutsu when even Kakashi knows it?

    We don't know that. I doubt Minato didn't teach Kakashi rasengan, considering chidori was created to replace rasengan, and used before Kakashi ever got his Sharingan. I'm sure Hiruzen knows about chidori and raikiri, as well as rasengan as they're signature jutsu of famous shinobi.

    In any case, Hiruzen in his prime probably wouldn't have been able to kill Orochimaru that invaded Konoha, or after the invasion. Even Four-Tailed Kyuubi failed to do that, and Sasuke would have lost if it weren't for genjutsu or plot. Orochimaru was almost unkillable, needing something like bijuu cannon (in his own words anyway) to fully kill him.
    If you mean only knowing about the jutsu I agree, I meant knowing as in being able to use

    And Orochimaru did say that, if Hiruzen was even 5-10 years younger, he would've been able to kill him, Shiki Fuuin is broken like that

    As for Kakashi, he meant Hiraishin and not Rasengan, considering he said that Chidori was a jutsu meant to kill a lot of enemies in an instant, like Yondaime's nickname, which was "Yellow Flash"

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    I know he said that, but I still say I doubt it, based on what we know now. Orochimaru didn't know about Shiki Fuujin when he said Hiruzen could have killed him ten years ago, though he could have meant before he became White Snake Orochimaru and was pretty mortal. Shame consistency failed, since back in Part I it wasn't hard to believe or wouldn't have been hard to believe Hiruzen would have been stronger than Madara or Hashirama.

    Kakashi told Naruto he created chidori because he couldn't combine his element with rasengan.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Comparatively, it is, since by all we've seen, the Jounin rank is the next fewest after Kage. There are far more Genin and Chuunin then there are of Jounin. Before Konoha's forces was enhanced to being over a thousand, a Jounin meeting involved 20 ninjas. And not so sure about the amount of time. Ignoring Naruto because he's an idiot, learning one's nature didn't appear to take very long going by what we saw from Yahiko, who learnt his over the course of three years. And of course, there's geniuses like Sasuke who masters a nature in a couple of weeks. Don't see how it would be counterproductive, given the whole counterbalance issue and the elemental weakness cycle.

    The Sharingan's ability to copy was admitted to require the right physical abilities, which natures would fall under. And we saw from both Kakashi and Sasuke how the copying can be used without literally copying a technique, not to mention that Kakashi admitted to only using three natures, which is strange if he could copy any of the five elemental techniques. Besides, the majority of Uchiha's didn't even possess the Sharingan, meaning even if it did give the ability to use more elements, they still wouldn't have that advantage.
    Well considering how unimpressive jounins are at the moment, it isn't exactly much of an accomplishment. I'm not stating the training time frame as a fact. I'm saying that it generally doesn't make sense for a shinobi to sacrifice time and effort into training an off-affinity element because mastering your own affinity element into high level jutsus is already extremely difficult. Yahiko spent 3 years learning how to use 1 element at weak levels. And thats his affinity. He would theoretically have to spend at least another 3 years just to use another element at weak levels. And thats not even guaranteed. He could spend decades into training an off-affinity element and reach very little success. And thats the point. Mastering your affinity into higher rank levels is already extremely difficult that few can actually accomplish. So why waste time and effort into training in something you're not good at when success insn't guaranteed? Just take Lee for example. He is not good at ninjutsu. If he had spent all his time effort into training ninjutsu, he might be able to use a few, but he'll still suck at it and fail to be a succesful shinobi. On the otherhand, he spent that time and effort into mastering taijutsu and is incomparison much better off. That's why I'm saying its counter productive. You rather be good at one thing, than mediocre in everything considering its already difficult to be just good at one thing.

    I don't remember Kakashi ever saying he could "only" use 3 elements. That is only what he has shown. It is never said or even implied that one cannot use an element he does not have an affinity to. The whole meaning of the word "affinity" is natural tendency or talent. Elemental affinities is exactly just that. What you are most talented in. Of course learning and using an off-affinity element is much more difficult hence why few can actually do so, but it is never said to be IMPOSSIBLE.
    Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 01:06 PM.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The tree Minato and Kushina were on was on top of a cliff, which I'm sure would be bigger than the trees when Naruto fought Gaara. In the link, we see Kyuubi crouched, though. The toad and the snake didn't look that crouched or lower than they really are, while the Kyuubi's knees looked pretty bent.
    We can see the top of the tree and bottom of the cliff, and there wasn't much distances between the two. And yeah, the Kyuubi was crouched, which is why I said it was bigger. But there's still a big difference between it being a little taller and it being massively huge as people are trying to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    That's a bad logic though. What if it was significantly bigger than the other bijuu at full power, and shrank to their size when it had half its chakra taken away? It makes no sense that sealing Kyuubi's chakra shrinks it, but having its chakra stolen and it attempting to use more chakra only results in it becoming emancipated.
    Why would it shrink to their size with half it's power taken? Besides, the Hachibi dwarfs just the same. It makes sense when you factor in the fact that Minato dealt with a physical Kyuubi while Naruto dealt with a mental/spiritual one. Sasuke burst the Kyuubi into bubbles inside Naruto's mental world, but it's obvious that he wouldn't be capable of really doing that to the Kyuubi in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Bunta could have been heavy enough to hold it down.
    But that would still require them to have a similar size, otherwise the Kyuubi's size would negate Gamabunta's weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I think Naruto beat the half-powered Kyuubi while Hiruzen and Konoha pushed backed the full powered Kyuubi.
    The Toads were confident that Naruto was fighting the full power and in context it wouldn't make sense for Naruto not to fight the full Kyuubi, as there's no feat otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    On Kyuubi's dimensions, the below post shows perfectly that Kyuubi still hasn't recovered the chakra Yondaime sealed away
    Then the Kyuubi, who was about three times taller then Konoha's fence, would have to be as small as said fence now. Not to mention the comparison to giant summons given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    You see no difference in dimensions between the shrunken Kyuubi that pierced Kushina and Yondaime and the one that fist-bumped Naruto
    There was also no difference between the size of the Kyuubi's head before it was sealed and after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    No trouble? To master a measly C rank jutsu Sasuke required a week of non-stop training, while, a few years later, he mastered Raiton, according to Kakashi, in a few days ( which is overly impressive ).
    Its also confirmed Sasuke's affinity is Raiton
    Yeah because said technique required a good deal of chakra to use, more then a Genin should have, and his "mastery" was literally huge. Not to mention we're talking about him seven years before that when he had just begun school. But for transforming his chakra into another nature, he succeed on his first try. Sasuke having an affinity for lightning doesn't negate him having a fire nature too, which is the underlying point.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    If I remember correctly, minato, the one who sealed the kyubi to naruto stated that he sealed half of the kyubi's power. And then jiraiya confirmed that. So what's the point of debating on something that's already clear in the manga? It's already a fact that the kyubi right now has just half of his power. And even if naruto's seal is weakened because the kyubi is getting stronger, but it doesn't mean the kyubi already regained his half power.

    It's just the kyubi's half power is getting stronger and stronger.
    The debate is because the Dead Demon seal doesn't prevent the Kyuubi from creating more chakra to replace the lost half. Orochimaru had his arm chakra sealed, but he was still able to switch bodies to somewhat fix the problem and when he manifested himself as pure chakra, he still had his arms.

    Besides the Toads state that Naruto's suppose to take control of the Kyuubi's full power and Minato only sealed half the Kyuubi's chakra because that was all he could handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.
    That's situational though. Aside from the questionable perspective, the Kyuubi was in an unnatural position, standing on it's hindlegs. I can stand my cat up on her hindlegs and make her taller then she normally is.

    Spoiler: KingOfNight;3251621 show


    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Well considering how unimpressive jounins are at the moment, it isn't exactly much of an accomplishment. I'm not stating the training time frame as a fact. I'm saying that it generally doesn't make sense for a shinobi to sacrifice time and effort into training an off-affinity element because mastering your own affinity element into high level jutsus is already extremely difficult. Yahiko spent 3 years learning how to use 1 element at weak levels. And thats his affinity. He would theoretically have to spend at least another 3 years just to use another element at weak levels. And thats not even guaranteed. He could spend decades into training an off-affinity element and reach very little success. And thats the point. Mastering your affinity into higher rank levels is already extremely difficult that few can actually accomplish. So why waste time and effort into training in something you're not good at when success insn't guaranteed? Just take Lee for example. He is not good at ninjutsu. If he had spent all his time effort into training ninjutsu, he might be able to use a few, but he'll still suck at it and fail to be a succesful shinobi. On the otherhand, he spent that time and effort into mastering taijutsu and is incomparison much better off. That's why I'm saying its counter productive. You rather be good at one thing, than mediocre in everything considering its already difficult to be just good at one thing.

    I don't remember Kakashi ever saying he could "only" use 3 elements. That is only what he has shown. It is never said or even implied that one cannot use an element he does not have an affinity to. The whole meaning of the word "affinity" is natural tendency or talent. Elemental affinities is exactly just that. What you are most talented in. Of course learning and using an off-affinity element is much more difficult hence why few can actually do so, but it is never said to be IMPOSSIBLE.
    When was it said that mastering one's element into higher levels is difficult, or learning any technique? Naruto's the only time I recall someone having real trouble learning a technique. Yahiko obviously gain more then a single technique from that three year training and a C-rank technique is pretty much standard. Both Kakashi and Jiraiya have made good use of them. So even only having a technique of that level would be useful. Anyway, Sakura average and she learnt several B/A rank techniques in three years while a genius like Sasuke created his own A/S rank techniques within that time. All of the Konoha 12 seems to have learnt several over the timeskip. Lee's a unique case, since his inability to mold chakra is the whole reason he doesn't use ninjutsu.

    The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    When was it said that mastering one's element into higher levels is difficult, or learning any technique? Naruto's the only time I recall someone having real trouble learning a technique. Yahiko obviously gain more then a single technique from that three year training and a C-rank technique is pretty much standard. Both Kakashi and Jiraiya have made good use of them. So even only having a technique of that level would be useful. Anyway, Sakura average and she learnt several B/A rank techniques in three years while a genius like Sasuke created his own A/S rank techniques within that time. All of the Konoha 12 seems to have learnt several over the timeskip. Lee's a unique case, since his inability to mold chakra is the whole reason he doesn't use ninjutsu.

    The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.
    Well, I assumed mastering one's element into higher is difficult simply by the fact that few has ever achieved it. It never occurred to me that shinobis simply preferred to be weak... Kakashi and Jiraiya made use of C/B-rank jutsus, but they also have the talent to learn and use a number of high level techniques. Most shinobi's don't and can't achieve that. If you can only achieve a C-rank jutsu with your own affinity, chance are, you don't have the talent to achieve much if anything with off-affinity elements. Its simple opportunity cost. You have to make a sacrifice in time and effort for everything, so why would you not play to your talents especially considering most don't get too far.

    People who are not kekkai users are generally born with one elemental affinity and that's what the chakra papers reveal. Now how are you suppose to know if you can use another element or not? You can't. You just train until you do learn it. Most jounins, who are supposed to be the most talented and exceptional shinobis, can only manage to learn a second element. Considering that, yes, the Rinnegan allowing you to easily learn all 5 elements is a damn incredible feat. Kakuzu only used 3 elements against Kakashi when he made that comment. Kakashi can use 3 himself, so what is there to be shocked about? Not that Kakuzu can use 3, but that he can use 3 at such a high level. He even mentions specifically mentions at "this level." The most talented shinobi's, the jounins, only manage to learn 2 and most don't even reach that level of high elemental manipulation. Kakuzu using 3 elements at such a level would make him like the most talented mf in the world. That's why Kakashi is shocked.
    Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 04:11 PM.

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  19. #930
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    We can see the top of the tree and bottom of the cliff, and there wasn't much distances between the two. And yeah, the Kyuubi was crouched, which is why I said it was bigger. But there's still a big difference between it being a little taller and it being massively huge as people are trying to argue.
    I thought there was quite a difference. But it does look pretty big crouched, so when it stretches fully, it'll look quite huge. Even crouched, it looked pretty big compared to a lot of big summons or bijuu.

    Quote Quote:
    Why would it shrink to their size with half it's power taken? Besides, the Hachibi dwarfs just the same. It makes sense when you factor in the fact that Minato dealt with a physical Kyuubi while Naruto dealt with a mental/spiritual one. Sasuke burst the Kyuubi into bubbles inside Naruto's mental world, but it's obvious that he wouldn't be capable of really doing that to the Kyuubi in the real world.
    Half of its chakra sealed away could cause it to shrink down to half its size. It wouldn't necessarily shrink down to their size, but in half, which could be close to the bijuu's size. What about when Naruto goes bijuu mode? That's a pretty close depiction of post-Shiki Fuuijin Kyuubi.

    Quote Quote:
    But that would still require them to have a similar size, otherwise the Kyuubi's size would negate Gamabunta's weight.

    The Toads were confident that Naruto was fighting the full power and in context it wouldn't make sense for Naruto not to fight the full Kyuubi, as there's no feat otherwise.

    Then the Kyuubi, who was about three times taller then Konoha's fence, would have to be as small as said fence now. Not to mention the comparison to giant summons given.
    Not necessary if Bunta is just that heavy. I'm not saying it's that small, but it's not big enough to completely hold down the Kyuubi.

    How so? It could have been 10x taller than Konoha's gate, but now it's 5x taller thanks to half of its chakra being sealed.

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