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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #946
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    He wasn't defeated because he used the Rinnegan, which is the point. Regular Madara wouldn't have had the Rinnegan and thus wouldn't have been able to save himself using the chakra absorption.
    I don't care. This is not about Madara.

    Quote Quote:
    It was their goal, explaining why they focused on an Uchiha body and Mokuton implants.
    It's logical to assume that. But it's not a fact.

    Quote Quote:
    You call people out for saying something if it's not specifically stated in the series itself. Nowhere in the series was such a term used, instead any weapon usage was applied to taijutsu. Asuma's Flying Swallow is him using a knife and Kimimaro was using weapons, created from his own bones. Both are still counted as taijutsu, despite the usage of weaponry.
    I call others for making up the weirdest things, not naming something unnamed. You're hoping to win this argument by saying "You call others for this and for that". When was any weapon use applied to Taijutsu ? You're defying both real world logic and manga logic. Taijustsu itself means "Body Techniques", how can using weapons count as Body technique ? Asuma was combining Taijutsu with his weapons and Kimimaro was combining his Taijutsu with His Kekkie Genkai. Nowhere was it said those two are all about Taijutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    ... And that changes what I said how? We already know that genjutsu is connected to spiritual energy from Tsukuyomi. Chakra being made from both doesn't mean that one couldn't be used, just like with senjutsu and natural energy.
    Yin and Yang can be used as separate releases. That's how.

    Quote Quote:
    No, I'm really not. And that was recon by the databook.
    Yes, yes you're.

    Quote Quote:
    He went from barely able to move his arms and needing Kabuto to preform the summoning for him to freely moving his arms and summoning himself. And really, it's ridiculous for you to disregard what was actually shown when it outright contradicts what was said. The statement that he can't use his arms was clearly shown wrong.
    Nope. What was said contradict what was shown. Orochimaru kept stating many and many times that he's not at full power. You're denying the latest, direct and undeniable statement that he can't use his arms with nothing but an unexplained summoning technique. And it's kinda funny as the table have turned. You're now going against what you said about the "newer information negate the old one".

    Quote Quote:
    Um, you still haven't shown why that one translation should be considered the correct one over the other, over then for the simple fact it supports your argument. And I've proven my claim fully. I showed Orochimaru using his arms despite the claim otherwise and using a ninjutsu (summoning) despite Sarutobi stating he was taking that away.
    Here, check this one. Your translation is full of garbage as I said. The only reason you're sticking to it, is out of desperation. Am not gonna bother with the rest, as I mad it clear up there.

    Quote Quote:
    Yet when I attempt to simplify what was shown in the series, it's completely wrong? Ridiculous. And since I've shown the Kyuubi back at full size, the toads talking about it's full power being used, and considering Minato's whole point was for Naruto to use the Kyuubi's power against Obito, disproving all your claims, I'm the one who won.
    When did you try to simplify something exactly ?

    About the bold part, I'm gonna give this straight and I don't care what happens next... you're lying. You never showed him back at full size, the toad was talking about something else and you avoided answering to that in both times, because you know you're lying. Minato himself said he sealed half of his power in Naruto. And there is also loads of other statements about that. Done. These proofs are absolute. Bring me one, ONE statement saying otherwise. If I don't see it in your next reply, then I win this argument.

    Quote Quote:
    ... Unless you ate your hands, your dinner was obviously made out of other materials. Again, it would be like making a triangle with your fingers and then pulling your hands apart. Without Yin and Yang, they don't exist.
    If I made a triangle with my fingers then pulled my right arm away, would my left arm disappear from this world ? No. There will still be a half triangle unless I pull my left hand.

    Quote Quote:
    I guess you don't understand how anatomy works. You can see Gamabunta's leg behind the Kyuubi's armpit, which would put Gamabunta on his back. And the whole reason Gamabunta is leaning to the size is because of the way the Kyuubi is positioned. Also, as mentioned, Gamabunta was capable of wrapping his whole hand around the Kyuubi's arms, which aren't that thin. Perspective wouldn't make Gamabunta's head several time bigger then the Kyuubi's unless they were originally of similar size. A smaller object would be made of similar size due to perspective.
    Behind his armpit ? It's clearly stomping the right side of his face, this means Gama is on either his shoulder or neck. Again he can't sit on the Kyuubi's back while he is in that position. Yes, perspective does make his ahead appear slightly bigger, not several times. Also, it's worth mentioning the Kyuubi's head was shown from the right side unlike Gama's. That and because Gama's head is rounder and wider made it seem as he's bigger. And again, how is he being about as big the upper side of his body while he is on four legs, is going to help your point ?

    Quote Quote:
    It was said in the third databook:
    Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Seeing as it has little to do with the argument that has already ENDED, can we move on ?

    Quote Quote:
    Except since they did stand still for most of the battle, you claiming otherwise was making it up. And there is no point, because there's nothing you can rebut.
    But that's how it was written. And still pales compared to what you do. And there is no point, because both of us were right and wrong. Stop being so desperate.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 22, 2013 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #947
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I don't care. This is not about Madara.
    You're the one who brought up Madara's words in an attempt to prove Hashirama's strength in relation to the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's logical to assume that. But it's not a fact.
    How is it not fact when we know what they were doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I call others for making up the weirdest things, not naming something unnamed. You're hoping to win this argument by saying "You call others for this and for that". When was any weapon use applied to Taijutsu ? You're defying both real world logic and manga logic. Taijustsu itself means "Body Techniques", how can using weapons count as Body technique ? Asuma was combining Taijutsu with his weapons and Kimimaro was combining his Taijutsu with His Kekkie Genkai. Nowhere was it said those two are all about Taijutsu.
    I was just pointing out your hypocrisy, because you have called people out for "not using exact manga proof". I gave you two examples of weapon techniques being called taijutsu. Asuma didn't employ any taijutsu, he simply used his knife. Same with Kimimaro. The second databook specifically mentions them using said weaponry is the technique:
    Spoiler: Hien show

    Spoiler: Dance of the Clematis: Flower show

    Spoiler: Dance of the Clematis: Vine show

    Spoiler: Dance of the Camelia show


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yin and Yang can be used as separate releases. That's how.
    And natural energy can be used separate from senjutsu, as Naruto showed against the Paths. Doesn't change that it's still a base in creating senjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yes, yes you're.
    Nope, reconned:
    Spoiler: RINNEGAN show


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Nope. What was said contradict what was shown. Orochimaru kept stating many and many times that he can't take Sasuke as he is now due to being unable to use Ninjutsu. You're denying the latest, direct and undeniable statement that he can't use his arms with nothing but an unexplained summoning technique. And it's kinda funny as the table have turned. You're now going against what you said about the "newer information negate the old one".
    Orochimaru never said that nor was anything ever mentioned about Orochimaru not being able to take Sasuke because of no ninjutsu. He said he didn't have the strength right now to take Sasuke's body. While, I should mention, swinging around his arms. And there's multiple examples of him using his arms to support said argument. Suigfetsu's statement not using his arms was negated by Orochimaru freely moving his arms afterward, so I'm not going against my claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Here, check this one. Your translation is full of garbage as I said. The only reason you're sticking to it, is out of desperation. Am not gonna bother with the rest, as I mad it clear up there.
    Except that's the translation the disputed scans used, which doesn't help your case. And considering the current chapter had the Kyuubi creating enough chakra for Naruto to pass out cloaks to his friends and have it felt halfway across the world, my argument is actually supported by shown events.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    When did you try to simplify something exactly ?

    About the bold part, I'm gonna give this straight and I don't care what happens next... you're lying. You never showed him back at full size, the toad was talking about something else and you avoided answering to that in both times, because you know you're lying. Minato himself said he sealed half of his power in Naruto. And there is also loads of other statements about that. Done. These proofs are absolute. Bring me one, ONE statement saying otherwise. If I don't see it in your next reply, then I win this argument.
    I attempted to simplify why one can't use who defeats who as a gauge of power.

    I showed the Kyuubi in relation to Konoha village, not that much bigger then the giant toads, snakes, and Ichibi. The Toads were specifically talking about Naruto taking the Kyuubi's chakra and there is nothing indicating meaning something else. And I already pointed out that Minato sealing half in himself didn't do anything to the Kyuubi personally to prevent it from creating more chakra, and I used Orochimaru as proof of that. There's not a single statement in the series saying the Kyuubi doesn't currently have it's full power back, and that would make no sense, since the whole story has been built upon the idea that Akatsuki grabbing the Kyuubi would mean the complete Juubi. Not just that, but we know from the KinGin brothers that just having the chakra wouldn't allow Naruto to reach all nine tails or risk resurrecting the Kyuubi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    If I made a triangle with my fingers then pulled my right arm away, would my left arm disappear from this world ? No. There will still be a half triangle unless I pull my left hand.
    Who said anything about something disappearing? The question was, how could the Kyuubi possess a form if it's missing the portion that's responsible for it having one. No Yin means the Kyuubi should be nothing but raw chakra incapable of resurrecting itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Behind his armpit ? It's clearly stomping the right side of his face, this means Gama is on either his shoulder or neck. Again he can't sit on the Kyuubi's back while he is in that position. Yes, perspective does make his ahead appear slightly bigger, not several times. Also, it's worth mentioning the Kyuubi's head was shown from the right side unlike Gama's. That and because Gama's head is rounder and wider made it seem as he's bigger. And again, how is he being about as big the upper side of his body while he is on four legs, is going to help your point ?
    What? If Gamabunta's foot was on the Kyuubi's head, then not only would the Kyuubi's arm not be pulled up infront of Gamabunta's leg but the next page would have shown that. Yet we clearly see that Gamabunta's foot wasn't anywhere near the Kyuub's head. We can see the Kyuubi's head and shoulders in front of Gamabunta's face. Gamabunta's head appears at least three times bigger then the enlonged Kyuubi's head. And the point is that the Kyuubi wasn't "so much bigger" in relationship to Gamabunta.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Seeing as it has little to do with the argument that has already ENDED, can we move on ?
    See, that's like the third time you have done that. Everytime I show you proof you're wrong, you claim that it "has nothing to do" with the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    But that's how it was written. And still pales compared to what you do. And there is no point, because both of us were right and wrong. Stop being so desperate.
    Which doesn't change my point. I'm not the one attempting to make the battle out to be more then it was. It was a simple battle where Sarutobi had little challenge and all the time he needed to plan. I wasn't wrong there, nor am I "desperate".

  3. #948
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Anyone wanna summarize how this ties in with the topic at hand, which is Hiruzen being stronger htan Madara?

    And I said summarize, so be short and all.

  4. #949
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Anyone wanna summarize how this ties in with the topic at hand, which is Hiruzen being stronger htan Madara?

    And I said summarize, so be short and all.
    Originally began over an explanation of why one can't use "who beat who" as a strength gauge and why Sarutobi's feat against the Edo Hokges didn't measure up to the current situations, and it eventually branched out to the current state as comparisons and examples involving Sasuke and then the other Kages were used.

  5. #950
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Oh, I see.

    Well, the obvious answer would be that we can't use Part I to judge Hiruzen's strength as it would be now. Everyone got an immediate jump in power after the timeskip, including Hashirama. It makes sense that if Kishi wants to keep up Hiruzen's hype, he ups Hiruzen's power as well.

  6. #951
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    its doesn't matter what Kishimoto said because if in NARUTO anything can happen. now lets see madara + obito r defeating all ninjas and samurai but tomorrow we may be see naruto + sasuke defeat madara + obito. its meaningless to fight on this because Kishimoto can do anything in NARUTO like change history, make c class fighter to s class fighter and s class fighter to c class fighter

  7. #952
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Oh, I see.

    Well, the obvious answer would be that we can't use Part I to judge Hiruzen's strength as it would be now. Everyone got an immediate jump in power after the timeskip, including Hashirama. It makes sense that if Kishi wants to keep up Hiruzen's hype, he ups Hiruzen's power as well.
    Tried pointing out that Kishi has reconned a bunch of things and the new info must be taken over the old, but apparently if it wasn't specifically and directly quoted in the series, it can't be considered true.

  8. #953
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    That's the downside though. You can't take everything said as facts as Kishi isn't saying it as facts, but from the characters' point of view and what they know. It should also be based on action, among other stuff.

    Words can always be proven wrong, actions are rarely ever proven wrong.

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  10. #954
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    You're the one who brought up Madara's words in an attempt to prove Hashirama's strength in relation to the others.
    And, how is this connected to him being almost defeated ?

    Quote Quote:
    How is it not fact when we know what they were doing?
    It's just not. They were researching the Sharingan, assumed it can go into Rinnegan, and that's it. They never said it was their goal.

    Quote Quote:
    I was just pointing out your hypocrisy, because you have called people out for "not using exact manga proof".
    It's not hypocrisy when it's an entirely different thing. I don't remember calling someone for naming something, beside I took from the Wiki, so I haven't really made this up.

    Quote Quote:
    I gave you two examples of weapon techniques being called taijutsu. Asuma didn't employ any taijutsu, he simply used his knife. Same with Kimimaro. The second databook specifically mentions them using said weaponry is the technique:
    First off, Asuma. You should check before posting. While it was classified as Taijutsu (a mistake maybe), in the main text it was stated to be a Ninjutsu :
    Quote Quote:
    An additional ninjutsu where one puts chakra into a blade such as a kunai or a sword,
    So it was likely a mistake. And you should check some more before you post, I really mean that. This Jutsu is using chakra in addition to the blade to create a whole new ability. Nothing about using the weapon itself was said to be a Taijutsu or Ninjutsu.

    Kimimaro...He's not using Ninja tools. It's his body, it's along the alley of Taijutsu anyway.

    Quote Quote:
    And natural energy can be used separate from senjutsu, as Naruto showed against the Paths. Doesn't change that it's still a base in creating senjutsu.
    That really has nothing to do with it. He clearly stated he is a Yin element user. So Yin is different from Yang and are not always bound together.

    Quote Quote:
    Nope, reconned:
    Wow, this has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. Nothing...

    Quote Quote:
    Orochimaru never said that nor was anything ever mentioned about Orochimaru not being able to take Sasuke because of no ninjutsu. He said he didn't have the strength right now to take Sasuke's body. While, I should mention, swinging around his arms. And there's multiple examples of him using his arms to support said argument. Suigfetsu's statement not using his arms was negated by Orochimaru freely moving his arms afterward, so I'm not going against my claim.
    It's not about swinging your arm. This was not the point of the Hiruzen sealing them. He can't use his Ninjutsus. That's the point. When Hiruzen used DDS he said he will seal all of his Jutsus.

    Quote Quote:
    Except that's the translation the disputed scans used, which doesn't help your case. And considering the current chapter had the Kyuubi creating enough chakra for Naruto to pass out cloaks to his friends and have it felt halfway across the world, my argument is actually supported by shown events.
    Dude, he simply regenerated his chakra. What's so special about that ? Several characters have done the same. And once again, because you desperately drag this, I forgot the original argument.

    Quote Quote:
    I attempted to simplify why one can't use who defeats who as a gauge of power.
    That's entirely, ENTIRELY different from what I did. It has no connection at all. What I did was, simply taking my point (a factual one), and putting it in a very simple way for you to understand it quickly and we can get this over with. This has no connection to you giving your opinion about defeating someone can't be used as a measure of power.

    Quote Quote:
    Who said anything about something disappearing? The question was, how could the Kyuubi possess a form if it's missing the portion that's responsible for it having one. No Yin means the Kyuubi should be nothing but raw chakra incapable of resurrecting itself.
    Which is a groundless statement that doesn't make any sense. Nowhere was it said that him losing his Yin half would mean him losing his form.

    Quote Quote:
    What? If Gamabunta's foot was on the Kyuubi's head, then not only would the Kyuubi's arm not be pulled up infront of Gamabunta's leg but the next page would have shown that. Yet we clearly see that Gamabunta's foot wasn't anywhere near the Kyuub's head. We can see the Kyuubi's head and shoulders in front of Gamabunta's face. Gamabunta's head appears at least three times bigger then the enlonged Kyuubi's head. And the point is that the Kyuubi wasn't "so much bigger" in relationship to Gamabunta.
    This dragging for too long so let's make it simply. Okay his leg was on his head (still not convinced but okay). Three times is exaggerating, at best 1.5x times bigger. Not so much bigger than Gamabunta ? Him standing on four legs is bigger than Gamabunta on two. Gama's whole body is about as big as the Kyuubi's upper body. So in the end he is much bigger.

    Quote Quote:
    See, that's like the third time you have done that. Everytime I show you proof you're wrong, you claim that it "has nothing to do" with the argument.
    It's true. Nothing to do with our original argument. You've proved that "using once life force" thing does actually exist, okay, cool. But...does it say The Kyuubi used his life force ? Does it say Nagato did ? No. So it really has nothing to do with the original. And please, move on. I already said I don't care about this argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Which doesn't change my point. I'm not the one attempting to make the battle out to be more then it was. It was a simple battle where Sarutobi had little challenge and all the time he needed to plan. I wasn't wrong there, nor am I "desperate".
    I never made the battle more than it was. I simply didn't go arguing about "why they didn't do this" and "why they were doing that". You weren't exactly "Wrong"...it's just random.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 23, 2013 at 08:33 AM.

  11. #955
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And, how is this connected to him being almost defeated ?
    Because were it not for a power that he gained after his time with Hashirama, the Rinnegan, he would have been defeated by the three. By your own argument, his strength is thus below theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's just not. They were researching the Sharingan, assumed it can go into Rinnegan, and that's it. They never said it was their goal.
    Orochimaru mentioned several times his desire to learn everything and Kabuto outright spoke of his goal of learning the secrets of the Rikudou Sennin.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's not hypocrisy when it's an entirely different thing. I don't remember calling someone for naming something, beside I took from the Wiki, so I haven't really made this up.
    You have, called people out for not using information that was in the series itself. Said term does not apply to the Naruto series.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    First off, Asuma. You should check before posting. While it was classified as Taijutsu (a mistake maybe), in the main text it was stated to be a Ninjutsu :

    So it was likely a mistake. And you should check some more before you post, I really mean that. This Jutsu is using chakra in addition to the blade to create a whole new ability. Nothing about using the weapon itself was said to be a Taijutsu or Ninjutsu.

    Kimimaro...He's not using Ninja tools. It's his body, it's along the alley of Taijutsu anyway.
    ... So you're acknowledging that the databook can have errors and thus can't be trusted, like everyone was trying to tell you?

    Anyway, it could simply mean it can be enhanced by an additional ninjutsu, since chakra flow is actually basic and states right at the bottom about it pertaining to Asuma and his knife. Swords, spears, and whips are weaponry, which are exactly what those techniques use. There's nothing about his body apart from him simply creating said weapons to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That really has nothing to do with it. He clearly stated he is a Yin element user. So Yin is different from Yang and are not always bound together.
    It has plenty. The fact that it can be used separately doesn't change that it's also used together. Thus the whole senjutsu/natural energy example. And no one ever claim they weren't different.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Wow, this has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. Nothing...
    Absolutely love how when you're shown wrong, it has "absolutely nothing to do with the argument". And yeah, it does. It goes back to the point about changing things previously stated as facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's not about swinging your arm. This was not the point of the Hiruzen sealing them. He can't use his Ninjutsus. That's the point. When Hiruzen used DDS he said he will seal all of his Jutsus.
    And a side effect of him getting his arms sealed was that he lost the usage of his arm, shown in that very chapter. All throughout the Sannin fight, Orochimaru didn't move his arms a bit. But once he switched bodies, he could move his arms freely and use ninjutsu that we know require handsigns. And not just snake techniques, but regular techniques too. So no matter how you look at it, Orochimaru was no longer affected by the Dead Demon seal, at least not at the level he originally was.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Dude, he simply regenerated his chakra. What's so special about that ? Several characters have done the same. And once again, because you desperately drag this, I forgot the original argument.
    Yes, that's the point. Minato taking away half it's chakra doesn't prevent it from regenerating more to replace what was lost. The only thing the Dead Demon seal seals is what was taken, not anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That's entirely, ENTIRELY different from what I did. It has no connection at all. What I did was, simply taking my point (a factual one), and putting it in a very simple way for you to understand it quickly and we can get this over with. This has no connection to you giving your opinion about defeating someone can't be used as a measure of power.
    I gave two reason examples of average ninjas defeating much stronger opponents due to special circumstances to show the whole who beats who doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Which is a groundless statement that doesn't make any sense. Nowhere was it said that him losing his Yin half would mean him losing his form.
    It was stated that the Yin half gave it form. No Yin half clearly means no form. It's makes prefect sense, and obviously why Kishi changed it to just being chakra later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    This dragging for too long so let's make it simply. Okay his leg was on his head (still not convinced but okay). Three times is exaggerating, at best 1.5x times bigger. Not so much bigger than Gamabunta ? Him standing on four legs is bigger than Gamabunta on two. Gama's whole body is about as big as the Kyuubi's upper body. So in the end he is much bigger.
    Um, no, his leg wasn't on his head, which was your claim. And again, the Kyuubi was about twice as big as the fence and buildings in Konoha when crouched, making it about three times as big normally. A giant snake and toad are about twice as big as the gate. It's fellow Bijuu, the Ichibi, was also about three times as big as the surrounding buildings in the village. So we clearly see the Kyuubi wasn't massively bigger then any of them before it was sealed, and since it's not smaller then any of them currently, it's back to normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's true. Nothing to do with our original argument. You've proved that "using once life force" thing does actually exist, okay, cool. But...does it say The Kyuubi used his life force ? Does it say Nagato did ? No. So it really has nothing to do with the original. And please, move on. I already said I don't care about this argument.
    Goes right back to the powerlevels of the Bijuus, and thus the challenge they posed in being defeated. It didn't have to say because it showed us them literally wasting away, something that wouldn't happen by just using chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I never made the battle more than it was. I simply didn't go arguing about "why they didn't do this" and "why they were doing that". You weren't exactly "Wrong"...it's just random.
    You did actually. You got upset because I pointed out that the fight against the Edo Hokages didn't measure up to a Kage level battle, and therefore was no challenge. You disagreed. I asked how could they have been a challenged if they weren;t fighting at their best and didn't do anything challenging, and you made it out as if I was attempting to change the story. Fact is, the Edo Hokages just don't measure up to the current battle-scale, and Sarutobi defeating them is no longer impressive since they didn't have their current feats.

  12. #956
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Because were it not for a power that he gained after his time with Hashirama, the Rinnegan, he would have been defeated by the three. By your own argument, his strength is thus below theirs.
    That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.

    Quote Quote:
    Orochimaru mentioned several times his desire to learn everything and Kabuto outright spoke of his goal of learning the secrets of the Rikudou Sennin.
    As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.

    Quote Quote:
    You have, called people out for not using information that was in the series itself. Said term does not apply to the Naruto series.
    When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.

    Quote Quote:
    ... So you're acknowledging that the databook can have errors and thus can't be trusted, like everyone was trying to tell you?

    Anyway, it could simply mean it can be enhanced by an additional ninjutsu, since chakra flow is actually basic and states right at the bottom about it pertaining to Asuma and his knife. Swords, spears, and whips are weaponry, which are exactly what those techniques use. There's nothing about his body apart from him simply creating said weapons to use.
    No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

    Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.

    Quote Quote:
    It has plenty. The fact that it can be used separately doesn't change that it's also used together. Thus the whole senjutsu/natural energy example. And no one ever claim they weren't different.
    I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.

    Quote Quote:
    Absolutely love how when you're shown wrong, it has "absolutely nothing to do with the argument". And yeah, it does. It goes back to the point about changing things previously stated as facts.
    No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?

    Quote Quote:
    And a side effect of him getting his arms sealed was that he lost the usage of his arm, shown in that very chapter. All throughout the Sannin fight, Orochimaru didn't move his arms a bit. But once he switched bodies, he could move his arms freely and use ninjutsu that we know require handsigns. And not just snake techniques, but regular techniques too. So no matter how you look at it, Orochimaru was no longer affected by the Dead Demon seal, at least not at the level he originally was.
    And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
    And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, that's the point. Minato taking away half it's chakra doesn't prevent it from regenerating more to replace what was lost. The only thing the Dead Demon seal seals is what was taken, not anything else.
    An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.

    Quote Quote:
    I gave two reason examples of average ninjas defeating much stronger opponents due to special circumstances to show the whole who beats who doesn't work.
    Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.

    Quote Quote:
    It was stated that the Yin half gave it form. No Yin half clearly means no form. It's makes prefect sense, and obviously why Kishi changed it to just being chakra later on.
    It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, no, his leg wasn't on his head, which was your claim. And again, the Kyuubi was about twice as big as the fence and buildings in Konoha when crouched, making it about three times as big normally. A giant snake and toad are about twice as big as the gate. It's fellow Bijuu, the Ichibi, was also about three times as big as the surrounding buildings in the village. So we clearly see the Kyuubi wasn't massively bigger then any of them before it was sealed, and since it's not smaller then any of them currently, it's back to normal.
    My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
    And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.

    Quote Quote:
    Goes right back to the powerlevels of the Bijuus, and thus the challenge they posed in being defeated. It didn't have to say because it showed us them literally wasting away, something that wouldn't happen by just using chakra.
    And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.

    Quote Quote:
    You did actually. You got upset because I pointed out that the fight against the Edo Hokages didn't measure up to a Kage level battle, and therefore was no challenge. You disagreed. I asked how could they have been a challenged if they weren;t fighting at their best and didn't do anything challenging, and you made it out as if I was attempting to change the story. Fact is, the Edo Hokages just don't measure up to the current battle-scale, and Sarutobi defeating them is no longer impressive since they didn't have their current feats.
    I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 24, 2013 at 07:47 AM.

  13. #957
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.
    And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.
    How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.
    Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

    Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.
    Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.
    ... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?
    ... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
    And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.
    Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.
    It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.
    Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.
    Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
    And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.
    Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.

    How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.
    It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.
    How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.
    And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.
    How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.
    Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

    Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.
    Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.
    ... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?
    ... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
    And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.
    Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.
    It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.
    Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.
    Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
    And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.
    Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.

    How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.
    It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.
    How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.

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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    This thread is a perfect reflection of Naruto as a series and a character:
    As a series, the posts get longer and longer (spamming S-rank jutsu and retconning).
    As a character, same statements are recurrently appearing (Kage Bunshin or Rasengan, I leave it to your taste).

    Back on topic #997:

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    That's the downside though. You can't take everything said as facts as Kishi isn't saying it as facts, but from the characters' point of view and what they know. It should also be based on action, among other stuff.

    Words can always be proven wrong, actions are rarely ever proven wrong.
    Can't argue with that.
    If we are going to take Iruka's words of being Sandaime the strongest Hokage of all into account, we should consider the fact that there were people wishing for Minato's presence during the invasion, apparently believing Sandaime wouldn't be able to stop his pupil.
    In the end, somehow, it wasn't the case and Sandaime held off Orochimaru, proving the doubters wrong.
    Mabui concluded that Raikage and Tsunade wouldn't be able to handle Tenso no Jutsu (teleportation), but they went through it (with Tsunade's creation rebirth, perhaps, but that's not the point, it was still a wrong assessment).

    That alone proves people in the manga universe are prone to be proven wrong immediately or over the time.

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  16. #959
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.
    Okay. But...he said that Hashirama is above them. So it really doesn't matter if he was defeated or not.

    Quote Quote:
    How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?
    How was the entire series built upon that anyway ? How ? And we don't have their word confirming anything. They didn't say " The Rinnegan is our goal in life".

    Quote Quote:
    Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.
    Not a first source really, just came across it a while back and didn't bother checking if it was legit or not.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.
    You think those "dozens" are mistakes, when they are not. It wasn't stated. It's just a technique classified as Ninjutsu\Taijutsu where ever the Mistake is. Using weapons alone was never stated. Applying chakra into the weapon, is also part of the technique along with extending the range, dealing stronger blows.

    Quote Quote:
    ... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.
    Okay fine. At least we agree on something.

    Quote Quote:
    ... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.
    My bad, I didn't know you provided to the Five or six nature releases. Back to topic, it was stated there is 5 in the databook. But 6 where mentioned in the Manga twice, which is it ?

    Quote Quote:
    Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.
    Yes but the point is, he can't use Ninjutsu. Orochimaru is always spitting out snakes without hand signs, along with many other weird techniques, like here and here. Suigetsu meant that he can't use Ninjutsu which is why he mentioned his arms being sealed by the DDS.

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    It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.
    As I said, you're trying to win this by dragging it. Orochimaru's wasn't proven to have suffered no effect, while otherwise was stated. So I'm the one who already won. And again, you have no evidence of the Kyuubi being back to normal. And one last time, was it ever said that either Orochimaru or the Kyuubi regained their lost parts ? If so, bring me a direct statement similar to this and this. If I don't see that, then I won.

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    Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.
    You simplified an opinion\argument, I simplified a fact. Two different things.

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    Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.
    Okay, I'm gonna walk with you and say that he changed his mind (not really convinced but because the outcome won't change) and made the Yin issue into a regular chakra...Did he get it back ? No. In the end, be it Yin-Yang case or chakra case, he wasn't shown getting it back.

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    Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.
    Yeah, this is dragging for too long. Okay, he is bigger than his upper body (still not buying it, but it's the same as above), the building in Suna aren't different (don't even know where you got that). Where was it shown that he got back to his full size ? He was shown shrinking, unless you have place showing him getting back...you know how it is. The toad for the last time meant something different, don't know why you're pretending to not understand.

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    How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.
    So now the plot revolves around the Kyuubi being back at 100% ? Does the plot always goes however you want it ? And how does it revolve around that anyway ?
    Now that's a weird question. Do you think Minato would just go kill himself only to seal something that the Kyuubi would regenerate after taking a nap ? And say it's lost forever ?

    Quote Quote:
    It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.
    Source ?

    Quote Quote:
    How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.
    How do you know it's not because he killed them instantly ?

  17. #960
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    This thread is a perfect reflection of Naruto as a series and a character:
    As a series, the posts get longer and longer (spamming S-rank jutsu and retconning).
    As a character, same statements are recurrently appearing (Kage Bunshin or Rasengan, I leave it to your taste).

    Back on topic #997:



    Can't argue with that.
    If we are going to take Iruka's words of being Sandaime the strongest Hokage of all into account, we should consider the fact that there were people wishing for Minato's presence during the invasion, apparently believing Sandaime wouldn't be able to stop his pupil.
    In the end, somehow, it wasn't the case and Sandaime held off Orochimaru, proving the doubters wrong.
    Mabui concluded that Raikage and Tsunade wouldn't be able to handle Tenso no Jutsu (teleportation), but they went through it (with Tsunade's creation rebirth, perhaps, but that's not the point, it was still a wrong assessment).

    That alone proves people in the manga universe are prone to be proven wrong immediately or over the time.
    Those were opinions though, and what Hiruzen and Anko said about Minato doesn't negate Iruka's statement that Hiruzen was the strongest, since we know Hiruzen's old age was the main reason why he feared he couldn't stop Orochimaru. Orochimaru himself said he thought Hiruzen would have been able to kill him ten years prior to their final fight.

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