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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #1006
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Both Orochimaru and Obito have made it explicit that Sasuke has more potential than Itachi. What more proof are you looking for?
    That's all talk and never was shown from Sasuke's side in the manga. Orochimaru and Obito both claimed that Sasuke's eyes will surpass Itachi's eyes, but if you compare them, Itachi was always better with his eyes than Sasuke with his.

  2. #1007
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    That's all talk and never was shown from Sasuke's side in the manga. Orochimaru and Obito both claimed that Sasuke's eyes will surpass Itachi's eyes, but if you compare them, Itachi was always better with his eyes than Sasuke with his.
    How does Itachi have better eyes? Other than Tsukuyomi - which can be easily over-come by Sasuke - Sasuke excels at Amatersu, variants, and Sussano arsenal. I don't believe it was all talk, because if you take it that way then the majority of what manga exhibits about characters is through talk, and henceforth, useless.

  3. #1008
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I don't remember Itachi having said anything of the sort. Sasuke naturally had a bigger chakra reserve, this is unarguable. But it's because Itachi had a below average stamina and chakra reserve. Their father always saw that Itachi had more potential and was much more talented.
    Itachi decided he would die for Sasuke and give his eyes far back when he slaughtered the clan to make sure he's powerful enough. He didn't keep his younger brother alive just for the sake of his love towards him (like Minato sealing the Kyuubi in his son, he had a purpose). Can't really remember if he said something regarding their potentials, so, sorry for that. That's why I used the word "believe", since I couldn't recall it perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    This is indeed a Shounen where emotions matter to some extent. But this is not Fairy Tail where emotions give you an instant boost. Just because you have the will power to win, doesn't mean you're gonna win. Otherwise, Sasuke wouldn't have gotten almost killed against a sick Itachi, or Konoha wouldn't have been obliterated by one man nor will the newly trained and strong willed Naruto get owned in an instant by an emotionless handicapped Nagato.
    Of course, but at that point, Sasuke was nowhere near the level Itachi was in his ill state. Emotions give you a boost, but they don't work out miracles, as you said.
    And I'll have to disagree with that. Nagato wasn't emotionless. Remember when Pain met Jiraiya and Jiraiya asked about Yahiko, he stated his death as if it was nothing, and against Naruto, while telling his story, he revealed his true side. In fact, if Nagato was really emotionless, he wouldn't be manipulated by Tobi in the first place.

    ---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    How does Itachi have better eyes? Other than Tsukuyomi - which can be easily over-come by Sasuke - Sasuke excels at Amatersu, variants, and Sussano arsenal. I don't believe it was all talk, because if you take it that way then the majority of what manga exhibits about characters is through talk, and henceforth, useless.
    That was all talk, and Danzou commented on the superiority of Itachi's genjutsu. At the very least, when Itachi was alive and healthy, his genjutsu was superior to that of Itachi's the moment Danzou confronted Sasuke.

  4. #1009
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    How does Itachi have better eyes? Other than Tsukuyomi - which can be easily over-come by Sasuke - Sasuke excels at Amatersu, variants, and Sussano arsenal. I don't believe it was all talk, because if you take it that way then the majority of what manga exhibits about characters is through talk, and henceforth, useless.
    Read it again. Obito and Orochimaru are talking about Sasuke's eyes surpassing Itachi's eyes. That means MS Sasuke vs. MS Itachi, which means Sasuke has absolutely no feats with a full formed Susanoo, because he never fought with it. MS Sasuke also never used Amaterasu Shuriken and the Amaterasu blade.

    Itachi had a better Susanoo, better Tsukuyomi and Izanami.

    I can only laugh at Sasuke's feat in overcoming Tsukuyomi against a sick Itachi, who was on his deathbed, not going all out, not going for the kill, nearly fully blind, pretending to want Sasuke's eyes, trying to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke's body and planned to die in this fight.

  5. #1010
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That was all talk, and Danzou commented on the superiority of Itachi's genjutsu. At the very least, when Itachi was alive and healthy, his genjutsu was superior to that of Itachi's the moment Danzou confronted Sasuke.
    Genjutsu is just one side of the argument, and as I said earlier can be overcome by Sasuke easily.

    ---------- Post added at 02:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    Read it again. Obito and Orochimaru are talking about Sasuke's eyes surpassing Itachi's eyes. That means MS Sasuke vs. MS Itachi, which means Sasuke has absolutely no feats with a full formed Susanoo, because he never fought with it. MS Sasuke also never used Amaterasu Shuriken and the Amaterasu blade.

    Itachi had a better Susanoo, better Tsukuyomi and Izanami.

    I can only laugh at Sasuke's feat in overcoming Tsukuyomi against a sick Itachi, who was on his deathbed, not going all out, not going for the kill, nearly fully blind, pretending to want Sasuke's eyes, trying to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke's body and planned to die in this fight.
    Itachi's Yata Mirror Sussano is better because of the items/treasures he has incorporated into his arsenal, if I am not mistaken. As for the Tsukuyomi point, then how was he holding back with a freaking genjutsu? Itachi controls the Time and Space within his genjutsu and simply didn't give Sasuke any mental torture like he did so last time, or as the physical torture sensations he gave to Kakashi. There is nothing in the manga to support this notion that there are levels to this genjutsu's potency.

    In fact, if you re-read the chapter where we saw this genjutsu the first time, Itachi made it explicitly clear that only Sasuke can break free of it. Hence, this advantage is lost on me.

  6. #1011
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Itachi's Yata Mirror Sussano is better because of the items/treasures he has incorporated into his arsenal, if I am not mistaken.
    I'm not counting Yata's Mirror and the Totsuka Sword. Itachi reached this Susanoo-level with his own eyes and he also showed feats in battle with it.

    Sasuke only reached the armored version of Susanoo with his own eyes. He has absolutely no battle feats with this one, since he only fart it out for one second.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    As for the Tsukuyomi point, then how was he holding back with a freaking genjutsu? Itachi controls the Time and Space within his genjutsu and simply didn't give Sasuke any mental torture like he did so last time, or as the physical torture sensations he gave to Kakashi. There is nothing in the manga to support this notion that there are levels to this genjutsu's potency.
    Of course he can hold back with Tsukuyomi. He already did it against Kakashi. Kakashi confirms that Itachi could have killed him. He asks himself why Itachi didn't. Not to mention that Kisame was suprised that Kakashi survived Tsukuyomi. That's proof enough that Itachi hold back and we all know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    In fact, if you re-read the chapter where we saw this genjutsu the first time, Itachi made it explicitly clear that only Sasuke can break free of it. Hence, this advantage is lost on me.
    He never explicitly said that Sasuke can break free of it. Itachi said that Tsukuyomi can't be beaten and only an Uchiha can beat him (which was/is a lie by the way).

  7. #1012
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    I can only laugh at Sasuke's feat in overcoming Tsukuyomi against a sick Itachi, who was on his deathbed, not going all out, not going for the kill, nearly fully blind, pretending to want Sasuke's eyes, trying to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke's body and planned to die in this fight.
    The notion that Itachi wasn't going "all out" needs to be take with a grain of salt. Because you don't use Amaterasu on someone if you aren't going "all out".

    Fact of the matter is he had no idea Sasuke would survive that, and the fact he didn't burn away his whole body shows this was indeed some kind of test for Sasuke, and if he failed, Itachi was going to take his eyes to gain EMS himself.

    Sasuke still broke Tsukuyomi with a regular Sharigan. Was it the same Tsukuyomi that nearly killed Kakashi? No, but it was still damn powerful.
    Last edited by Delbi; February 03, 2013 at 05:10 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  9. #1013
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    I'm not counting Yata's Mirror and the Totsuka Sword. Itachi reached this Susanoo-level with his own eyes and he also showed feats in battle with it.

    Sasuke only reached the armored version of Susanoo with his own eyes. He has absolutely no battle feats with this one, since he only fart it out for one second.


    Of course he can hold back with Tsukuyomi. He already did it against Kakashi. Kakashi confirms that Itachi could have killed him. He asks himself why Itachi didn't. Not to mention that Kisame was suprised that Kakashi survived Tsukuyomi. That's proof enough that Itachi hold back and we all know why.


    He never explicitly said that Sasuke can break free of it. Itachi said that Tsukuyomi can't be beaten and only an Uchiha can beat him (which was/is a lie by the way).
    Sasuke went almost blind fairly quickly, as he over-used his abilities unwittingly. The factor we are talking about is 'potential'. Had Sasuke known this overuse will make his eyes lose their light, I highly doubt we would have seen the last of MS then. Also, Sasuke did jump up to a complete Sussano fairly quickly - in a matter of hour or so when he first activated Sussano ribs - whereas, Itachi had gained MS quite a while before this fateful fight. So your comparison is highly unfair on these grounds alone.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-15...apter-142.html - Here it's clearly mentioned that only Sasuke can break free of it. He could've, but he turned it off himself, but not before giving him 96 hours of physical torture sensations. With Sasuke, he cannot accomplish so because of the blood-line link and his ability to overcome it.

    You are again disregarding my points on Space/time manipulation. Whatever is in the moon world is subject to Itachi's whims. Note this, at least.
    Last edited by shahdan; February 03, 2013 at 05:21 PM.

  10. #1014
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Sasuke went almost blind fairly quickly, as he over-used his abilities unwittingly. The factor we are talking about is 'potential'. Had Sasuke known that his overuse will drive make his eyes lose their light, I highly doubt we would have seen the last of Ms then. Also, Sasuke did jump up to a complete Sussano fairly quickly, whereas, Itachi had gained MS quite a while before this fateful fight. So your comparison is highly unfair on these grounds alone.
    Sasuke did know full well of the MS risks. He was the one who decided to spam it left and right. It's his fault to go blind in such a short time. The comparsion is fair in every sense of the word. We have two MS users who went blind over the course of their life.
    One of them showed feats with a full formed Susanoo, a perfect Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. The other one only showed feats with an armored version of Susanoo, a Tsukuyomi/MS Genjutsu, which was nowhere near Itachi's level and only trumps in excellent usage of Amaterasu. Not only that, Itachi also can use Izanami.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-15...apter-142.html - Here it's clearly mentioned that only Sasuke can break free of it. He could've, but he turned it off himself, but not before giving him 96 hours of physical torture sensations. With Sasuke, he cannot accomplish so because of the blood-line link and his ability to overcome it.
    You are again disregarding my points on Space/time manipulation. Whatever is in the moon world is subject to Itachi's whims. Note this, at least.
    The fact remains that Itachi can hold back and not kill his opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The notion that Itachi wasn't going "all out" needs to be take with a grain of salt. Because you don't use Amaterasu on someone if you aren't going "all out".

    Fact of the matter is he had no idea Sasuke would survive that, and the fact he didn't burn away his whole body shows this was indeed some kind of test for Sasuke, and if he failed, Itachi was going to take his eyes to gain EMS himself.
    I can't believe this. It was made pretty clear that Itachi decided to die by Sasuke's hands. What's the point in taking Sasuke's eyes for EMS and die the next second?

    Itachi planned everything out. He played his part, Sasuke played his, even when launching every single MS technique.
    Last edited by syx; February 03, 2013 at 05:44 PM.

  11. #1015
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    I can't believe this. It was made pretty clear that Itachi decided to die by Sasuke's hands. What's the point in taking Sasuke's eyes for EMS and die the next second?

    Itachi planned everything out. He played his part, Sasuke played his, even when launching every single MS technique.
    You honestly can't believe that. Itachi can't read minds, he had no idea Sasuke would survive Amaterasu.

    And Itachi died from the combination of using Sussano, his illness, chakra exhaustion, not to mention the blow he took from Kirin.

    As for the point of taking Sasuke's eyes and gaining EMS? Killing Obito. Obito fear Itachi, and Itachi, being the planner he is, could have figured if he couldn't save his brother, he might as well take his eyes and die trying to kill Obito I would think.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  12. #1016
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    You honestly can't believe that. Itachi can't read minds, he had no idea Sasuke would survive Amaterasu.
    Of course I believe what I wrote, since I can back it up. It was never, at no point of time, not in a single panel mentioned that Itachi considered the death of Sasuke a real possibility in their fight. On the other hand it was made clear how much he loved Sasuke, that he decided to die by Sasuke's hands since the massacre, that he was trying to give Sasuke more power, that he played his part in the fight, just like Sasuke and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And Itachi died from the combination of using Sussano, his illness, chakra exhaustion, not to mention the blow he took from Kirin.
    He was already short in time, even without everything you listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    As for the point of taking Sasuke's eyes and gaining EMS? Killing Obito. Obito fear Itachi, and Itachi, being the planner he is, could have figured if he couldn't save his brother, he might as well take his eyes and die trying to kill Obito I would think.
    The fact that Obito had the luxury to run/teleport away and throw the whole Akatsuki at Itachi makes the EMS totally useless.
    Last edited by syx; February 03, 2013 at 06:13 PM.

  13. #1017
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    Of course I believe what I wrote, since I can back it up. It was never, at no point of time, not in a single panel mentioned that Itachi considered the death of Sasuke a real possibility in their fight. On the other hand it was made clear how much he loved Sasuke, that he decided to die by Sasuke's hands since the massacre, that he was trying to give Sasuke more power, that he played his part in the fight, just like Sasuke and so on.

    He was already short in time, even without everything you listed. Obito

    The fact that Obito had the luxury to run/teleport away and throw the whole Akatsuki at Itachi makes the EMS totally useless.
    And all of that is irrelevant given the fact Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke. How in the hell is that not him trying to kill him in that instance? Please show me proof that Itachi didn't think that would kill him. Obito's words are useless given the way the fight played out.

    Now did he take it easy on him in other ways? Of course, but in that instance it was either it would kill him or it wouldn't. He had no idea Sasuke could use Orochimaru's rebirth jutsu.

    Itachi was a master planner who has a jutsu like Sussano and it's weapons. Konan came close to killing Obito, I have no doubt in mind that Itachi would have went after him as well. Whether or not he would have succeeded is another story. The fact that Obtio claimed that if he didn't hold secrets from Itachi he'd be dead shows Itachi was capable of killing him.
    Last edited by Delbi; February 03, 2013 at 06:16 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  14. #1018
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And all of that is irrelevant given the fact Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke. How in the hell is that not him trying to kill him in that instance? Please show me proof that Itachi didn't think that would kill him. Obito's words are useless given the way the fight played out.

    Now did he take it easy on him in other ways? Of course, but in that instance it was either it would kill him or it wouldn't. He had no idea Sasuke could use Orochimaru's rebirth jutsu.
    First things first. The funny thing is that Kishi highlighted Itachi using handseals before launching Amaterasu, which gave Sasuke enough time to pull out that big shuriken and throw it at Itachi. Except this event, Kishi never showed us Itachi using handseals for Amaterasu. After 10-15 seconds, Itachi uses Amaterasu two times in a short time (#1 / #2)... without handseals.

    The second Amaterasu was launched after Sasuke started to run away.

    As for Itachi knowing or not knowing about Sasuke's ability to use Orochimaru's rebirth technique. Itachi also knew about Orochimaru's Yamata no Jutsu, he also knew that Sasuke didn't die against Deidara and he knew how Sasuke's Cursed Seal Level 2 looked like, even though he never saw him in that state. Things he actually shouldn't know, but he did.

    Yes, I can't prove that Itachi knew about Sasuke's rebirth technique. But that's not really relevant. Nobody can show me a single panel, where it's stated that Itachi "tested" Sasuke and seriously hazarded his life.

    In fact, Itachi himself stated that he wanted to be judged by Sasuke for his crimes. Hell, the last thing Sasuke said to Edo-Itachi was that he exists to destroy the village and Itachi still didn't do shit against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Itachi was a master planner who has a jutsu like Sussano and it's weapons. Konan came close to killing Obito, I have no doubt in mind that Itachi would have went after him as well. Whether or not he would have succeeded is another story. The fact that Obtio claimed that if he didn't hold secrets from Itachi he'd be dead shows Itachi was capable of killing him.
    The problem with Itachi is that he has to find Obito in the first place. But the tricky part is that he also has to make sure that Obito doesn't run away. How is that possible? Yes, I believe that Itachi could kill/seal/take out Obito in a straight one on one fight, but not in manga standards.
    Konan didn't find Obito, it was Obito who decided to meet and fight her. Thanks to Izanagi, Obito was sure that he could take out Konan. But as you said, Obito was afraid of Itachi, which means he would teleport away as fast as he can.
    Last edited by syx; February 03, 2013 at 07:44 PM.

  15. #1019
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And all of that is irrelevant given the fact Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke. How in the hell is that not him trying to kill him in that instance? Please show me proof that Itachi didn't think that would kill him. Obito's words are useless given the way the fight played out.

    Now did he take it easy on him in other ways? Of course, but in that instance it was either it would kill him or it wouldn't. He had no idea Sasuke could use Orochimaru's rebirth jutsu.

    Itachi was a master planner who has a jutsu like Sussano and it's weapons. Konan came close to killing Obito, I have no doubt in mind that Itachi would have went after him as well. Whether or not he would have succeeded is another story. The fact that Obtio claimed that if he didn't hold secrets from Itachi he'd be dead shows Itachi was capable of killing him.
    Obito claimed that if he didn't hold a few secrets from itachi, the amaterasu trap of itachi could kill him. Obito was talking to itachi's fail safe method and not that itachi can kill him head on. There's a big difference between the two.

    And if itachi really want to kill sasuke with his amaterasu, he can shoot that directly to his face. The amaterasu was suppose to hit anyone on sight, but itachi didn't do that, and sasuke's speed isn't amazing enough to avoid being hit by amaterasu. So itachi was clearly holding back for sasuke's sake.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

  16. #1020
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Spoiler: KingOfNight;3282529 show


    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, I'll be fair with the argument here. I believe it was Itachi himself who saw more of a potential in Sasuke. Sasuke had the bigger chakra reserves out of the two. Comparing their Genjutsu isn't fair, since Itachi had more years to train, and to me, he was the real genius out of the siblings.
    About Nagato, you are right. That was just pointing out a potential development over the time. Never it was stated anything to suggest Sasuke came anywhere close to Nagato.
    Don't forget Orochimaru too. And I said Sasuke with EMS was implied to become stronger then Nagato, since Obito was working hard to get him on his side and strong enough before declaring the war, where he planned on finishing the Moon Eye plan. In addition, Naruto told the other Konoha 11 that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke after Kiba brought up him kicking Pain's ass as a reason why Sasuke shouldn't have stood a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Obito claimed that if he didn't hold a few secrets from itachi, the amaterasu trap of itachi could kill him. Obito was talking to itachi's fail safe method and not that itachi can kill him head on. There's a big difference between the two.

    And if itachi really want to kill sasuke with his amaterasu, he can shoot that directly to his face. The amaterasu was suppose to hit anyone on sight, but itachi didn't do that, and sasuke's speed isn't amazing enough to avoid being hit by amaterasu. So itachi was clearly holding back for sasuke's sake.
    Itachi's fail safe was Amaterasu being shot, which Itachi was fully capable of preforming himself. And once Amaterasu is used, Itachi had no more control over it. So it wasn't as if he could have slowed the flames down to make it easier for Sasuke. Also, how isn't Sasuke's speed amazing enough? Sasuke is faster then regular Ee and has the prediction advantage of the Sharingan, which as we saw with the Edo Jinchuuriki, can easily make up the difference.

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