Naruto's Plot: Was the Rikudo stuff a good idea?

[Jammin]

So i'm curious what the general consensus is on something.

Starting with the introduction of the character Pain and his Rinnegan Kishimoto has moved the story onto a path that makes the Uchihas, the Senju, and their Rikudo ancestor of paramount importance. Far more so than other ninja clans and whatever their heritage might be.

My question is this.....

"In your opinion has introducing the Rikudo, and making Uchiha and Senju so special, made the Naruto narrative better or worse?"

[Jspot]

It was unprecedented. That alone is enough to leave a sour taste in my mouth. This whole detail is still in its youth, and could potentially turn out great... but what it currently is, is unsatisfying.

[ChuckinUpDueces]

In my opinion, I don't like it too much. It puts too much emphasis on things outside of the current characters control, namely their heritage.

For a manga like Naruto to be based around the premise of a main character who wasn't always clearly shown with such clarity, suddenly muddying up the waters of other villains, clans, villages and allies just seems contrived rather than thought provoking.

Again, I kind of felt the same way when Pain was introduced, but a lot of that arc I thought turned out pretty well. However, one thing that bothers me, is going back and rereading previous chapters knowing what Pain's secret is; it still doesn't make much sense and makes what's going on seem completely unbelievable still.

I hope it picks up, but after 500+ articles, I'm willing to forgive a lot. Kudos to Kishimoto-dono

[Smokes]

I'm not a big fan of it because of how slowly the details are unraveling. Kishi still hasn't explained how the Senju managed to not be permanently enslaved by the Uchiha with this so called power of the body, we are still getting trolled over who Madara is, and now we have some sort of relationship between the Senju and Uzimaki....Gedo is chillin' in the basement with a Han Soloesque Hashirama that looks like he's frozen in carbonite, Madara had the rinnegan that he gave to an Uzumaki so he could take them back when he died?????????

So, I don't mind the story heading down that road. I would just like it if the revelations started answering questions instead of creating them.

I mean, seriously, it feels so random without some real understanding of what's going on and generally defined scope or limits. If next chapter, Madara is sitting at his kitchen table having coffee with Jaraiya, I wouldn't be any more baffled. My curiosity went flaccid about 150 chapters ago. Now I just read the chapter, think WTF, and leave it be for another week.

But I know that my tipping point can be pretty short.

[Gwym]

Ultimately I feel it goes counter to everything the first half of Naruto or what I would like to call the "good half" had going for it. I loved how they emphasized that the newest generation will always surpass the previous. I was expecting each generation to get more and more powerful, but ultimately the opposite is true. We had a god who began ninjitsu and its been downhill from there. Now you have a super villain who's just trying to mimmick what Rikudu was able to do, by his lonesome, having no help. Its utterly ridiculous and undermines the story and is an unforgivable sin. I enjoy this manga, but never again will I feel the utter awe I had for the first half.

Its like...oh Naruto, you're so powerful, you're almost like, a small percentage of the first sage, and only because you have a demon in you. Oh, Naruto, your dad was a GENIUS, once every generation level...oh but he was garbage compared to the sage of the sixth paths...sorry buddy.

[benelori]

Honestly I don't really like this...and I don't really like the fact that Kishimoto is kinda making this goal to be Rikudo an achievable goal, like the way he does with Madara now...also the introduction of Rikudo is closely followed by the introduction of Jyuubi which I dislike the most...

I just hope that this Rikudo stuff would be developed within the known manga limitations and themes introduced before

[Gwym]

Additionally, I mean, many explanations are needed that are just not being given. Why split up the Jyuubi, why not destroy that F'er forever if you can warp reality? Why split the demons and give them out? Why make them look so stupid (other than the fox, he's cool)?

I liked how in the first series you had Orochimaru (who in my opinion was a fantastic villain) wishing to seek the secret of all jutsus...when Madara already beat him to the punch years ago. Who knew everything all along. Izanagi. UGH.

[Nieuwsgierig]

I love the idea, it gives us a good backstory for the Naruto universe, although it is disappointing for the legend to be linked so strongly to Konoha, both Senju and Uchiha are Konoha so how can the other villages ever catch up with this village? And it gives Naruto a good way to seal away all powers and bring peace: become the Rikodou himself.

[Jammin]

Thanks for answering my question guys.

I seem to be in line with the majority here so far(though it's a pretty close poll). I don't love what the Rikudo has brought to the story but i don't quite feel strongly enough to say that i think it's ruining the series. What i don't like is they way this Rikudo business seems to contradict the history and themes that Kishmoto spent all of part 1 and most of part 2 creating. I'll throw out some examples....

1) Naruto's rise from underdog to champion seems so much less impressive now that it was predestined by his heritage. If you read back to moments like the Neji fight it just seems like Neji's fatalistic view of the Narutoverse was....correct. What happened to surpassing natural gifts through hard work? He only conquered the kyuubi because of who his parents are. That doesn't sit well with me.

2) It has created separation between Naruto, Sasuke, Tobi, and everybody else. Basically if you have Senju or Uchiha heritage you are superior. So it really damages the "value of teamwork" theme the series spent so long emphasizing. Naruto "the champion" is great and all, but Naruto "the leader" has been left by the wayside. Unfortunately, it seems like other ninjas just don't matter anymore.

3) Making the Rikudou and the Jyuubi the root of all ninjutsu just doesn't fit with the history he has already created. What about bloodline limits, like the Hyuuga's, how could they have possibly come from the Rikudo since they are born not taught? What about the other ninja villages and their bloodline limits, not everybody is of Senju or an Uchiha descent? It seems to me like the Rikudou being the origin of all ninjutsu just doesn't mesh very well at all with the history Kishimoto has already built up.

4) Using the Rikudo power of creation to make an army of Zetsu's. Which is basically like an army of puddy's from power rangers(Puddy's were like the henchmen made of clay for those who never watched the show) Opponents that can be hurt or killed with no moral impact. Dispite all the supposedly deep and meaningful points Kishimoto tried to make about war and conflict, when he actually wrote a conflict he wussed out making it humans vs nonhumans. Thereby undercutting all the points he tried to make.

I'm beginning to think the series may have been better off if the characters Pain and the Rikudo had never been created. So that the story would have to rely on intrigue and political maneuvering instead of godly powers.

[DementedKirby]

The only reason why it doesn't bother me is because Kishimoto's creating a myth all around it in the Narutoverse. Everything has to have a beginning. In that origins aspect, it's fine. Also, there had to be a reason behind everything, so it's basically covering a lot of points - even if it is creating new ones. Personally, linear plots are more boring. I feel that they insult my intelligence as a reader - as if I'd be too stupid to realize things on my own. In fact, it might even be insulting to my imagination.

Kishi's process isn't new or original. Many successful authors use it. Charles Dickens comes to mind. For anyone who read Great Expectations, who the fuck though that the convict that the kid helped in the beginning would turn out to be his benefactor? That was the most randomnest thing I'd ever read in my entire fucking life. And was novel shit? No way. That novel was the shit. Other literary genius utilize these techniques as well, such as the Brontë sisters, and their novels were awesome.

What's turning the story stale, in my opinion, isn't the introduction of Pain or the Sof6P. I thought Pain was an amazing villain and his powers were fucking awesome. His purpose was also to help Naruto mature. If Jiraiya hadn't died and Naruto not forgiven Nagato, the story would've had no purpose whatsoever. How else would Naruto pass that bridge in his life? That in and of itself was completely crucial to the story. So, Pain at least, was vital and necessary (and badass, as well) to the main story.

The staleness is coming from Madara's quest. It seems too cliché to me. His character is Aizen-esque, if that helps explain my point. It's like: "I know everything, nothing surprises me, nothing wrong has happened that I haven't already planned ahead for, everything is going according to plan, I'm unstoppable, undefeateable, broken, epic, everyone around me is a bunch of n00bs, etc". At least Orochimaru had character. He had personality. Madara is boring the fuck out of me. If Madara had more development and didn't confuse the story, I wouldn't be as "meh" with Naruto right now.

Honestly, the only good direction the manga's heading into is the war. We'll finally be able to see new ninjas in action and maybe see how Naruto's classmates have grown and what new powers they might have. About Kabuto's edo tensei the other Akatsuki members instead of Kishimoto developing new ones... well, I see that as fanservice more than anything else.

Sorry for the rant, but you did ask for an opinion :P.

[Jammin]

No reason to be sorry. I love to hear impassioned opinions. Though i'm not quite sure i got your answer to my question. The question i want the answer to is a pretty specific one.

"In your opinion has introducing the Rikudo, and making Uchiha and Senju so special, made the Naruto narrative better or worse?"

In other words, completely separate from what you think of Madara or anything else, would you say that the story is better off or worse off for the introduction of the Rikudo, and everything that has stemmed from it(Uchiha, Senju, Juubi, etc.)? That's the question i'm really curious to hear people's opinions on.

[DementedKirby]

Well, I did say it was ok. I guess I meant that it's neither great nor awful. I saw it as something interesting and necessary. I'm not bothered by it and I think it's moving the manga forward. Granted, it's not in a direction many people like, but that's good. With every arc it's like we're reading a different manga. In all honesty, I think it'd be pretty boring if it got too cliché and predictable. The whole Senju/Uchiha thing I saw a mile away. I was like: "there's gotta be a reason these clans were so broken." and there we have it. Not only are those clans broken, but so are their relatives (the Hyuuga in Uchiha's case and the Uzumaki in Senju's case). Some people might not see the relation to the story, but the Sot6P having existed and being a sole shinobi who changed the world, opens the door and the possibility that Naruto, a sole shinobi, could do the same. It wouldn't be impossible because someone already achieved it. Granted, Rikudou's peace didn't last because of his sons, but that separation will end in a reconciliation between the two (Naruto and Sasuke).

The parallelism is apparent since the beginning. Not only were Naruto and Sasuke apparently natural rivals, but they were destined rivals. Most people didn't like that idea, but I don't think it's ruined the series. The manga is so deep and there are so many great directions to go in, I doubt it'll just end here. The Rikudou's function is both an explanation to Madara's goal and Naruto's goal (reconciliation between himself and Sasuke), though in Naruto's case, he could care less about all the melodrama and the fate between the Uchiha and Senju. He simply sees Sasuke as another friend, and not as half of the Sot6P's legacy. So, for those who don't like the direction, don't fret because Naruto doesn't, either . He could care less about fate and Madara's bullshit. He's simply doing what he wants.

If you analyze the situation carefully, the manga hasn't really shifted all that much in its main focus: Naruto doing whatever it takes to save Sasuke, end the hate in the ninja world, and become Hokage.

[Jammin]

Interesting take.

Can't really say i agree with it though. The story has changed so much. I mean, fatalistic things like, the frog prophecies, were nowhere to be found until Pain was introduced. Naruto has gone from a character that creates a future by his own actions to a character living out a legend that he was predestined for as if the determination that brought him this far has less to do with things than his Uzumaki heritage.

The story is going forward and, whether the Rikudou origin story was good or bad, there is no going back now. No use in crying over spilt milk, as they say. That being said i fear the infusion of an epic world mythology(the Rikudou, etc), and fantastical powers drawn from it, may serve to drown out too much of what could have made the series great. It's beginning to seem like elevating Naruto and Sasuke to near godhood has only served to weaken their connections to the world in which they live. The teamwork in the story seems to be gone and it seems that lately instead of writing their own story Naruto and Sasuke have been following a script of destiny, with only slight ad-libing here and there.

To me seeing Naruto go from a "great story" to a "good manga" would be utterly tragic. If Naruto does indeed go from what he once was, an underdog who rose above all the things stacked against him through his own force of will, to a powerful solitary champion of light and an instrument of fate; then i believe this story will have lost much of the potential it once possessed.

[Biassed]

I think introduction of Rikudou was an interesting idea. It was an easy explanation regarding various NinJutsu and Tailed beasts.
It added a mystery element in the plot. It could have been left as a legend and story could have progressed in different way.
Kishi has put a huge idealogical burden on the main character, breaking the chain of hatred of the whole world.
And Rikudou's story will somehow help/assist to meet that goal. I don't like the idea of Protagonist and Antagonists becoming/on the way of becoming the Rikudou-like individuals. I hope Madara at least fails to become Rikudou like powerful. As for Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki being special, well in many action mangas, at least protagonists have something special, mostly in dormant form. That's why they are able to do the spectacular things they do at the end. I don't mind at all.

[Franckie]

My main problem with the Rikudou Sennin chiefly deals with how Kishimoto is weaving him into the plot. He's the paternal ancestor of the Senju Clan that appeared out of the middle of nowhere and retconned a decade's worth of manga material where the Uchiha Clan was the "strongest" clan. It also turns out the Rinnegan is a more evolved Sharingan. This is the fourth f***ing time the Sharingan has discovered its "true power". How many more times will this idiocy continue? Finally, he's what started the "Cycle of Hatred"/"Love vs Hate"/whatever nonsense that now dominates the Sasuke-Naruto plot tumor.

There's also other factors to consider. With his introduction, the manga has moved towards a more fatalistic direction where individuals cannot always be held accountable for their personal choices with Nagato and Sasuke as examples, which I find to be completely insulting to the audience's intelligence. You also have the staleness that stems from Madara's quest as DementedKirby already explained.