Garp, Sengoku & Rayleigh Vs The Admirals

[fistsofrage]

Age does tho. Remember how fatigued Rayleigh was when he fought Kizaru? Kizaru was not even breaking a sweat, even if he had a hard time against Rayleigh.
And besides having haki, the User your attacking is stil in his elemental form. So kicken Akainu for example will hurt you a lot if you dont have ways to avoid the selfdamage. In the war we saw Marco (who can regenerate) and Vista (who attacked him with a sword rather then his own body) attack him directly besides Whitebeared. And what Akainu did not see WB coming which means we don't know if he would have goten a burn or not.
Im with bittman on that 1. Im pretty sure the admirals will take that fight. Maybe it will not be an easy battle for them, but they will pull that 1 out.

Rayleigh fatigued from fighting kizaru? He was fighting kizaru and trying to think of a way to stop the pacifista at the same time lol. Kizaru was getting embarrassed because rayleigh wasn't paying that much attention to him. We're talking about the man who swam across the calm belt getting fatigued because he was sword fighting with an admiral...preposterous.

All this talk about being out of their prime is just sad. all that means is that they have had more time to train their haki. Look at the whitebeard. Even out of his prime he was a monster. No single admiral could take him and akainu only got a blow in after he was stabbed by squardo and his body failed him. When garp showed up in front of the execution stand, there was not a single pirate who wasn't shitting himself except for whitebeard.

P.S. When Akainu stabbed Ace and Sengoku held Garp down, there wasn't a single one of us who wasn't hoping Garp would give Akainu the beatdown And when Whitebeard was serious, he took down Akainu in a few seconds.

[bittman]

Rayleigh fatigued from fighting kizaru? He was fighting kizaru and trying to think of a way to stop the pacifista at the same time lol. Kizaru was getting embarrassed because rayleigh wasn't paying that much attention to him. We're talking about the man who swam across the calm belt getting fatigued because he was sword fighting with an admiral...preposterous.

Not really. It's not some leisurely swim in calm waters and then a battle with a large sea king, it's a extreme speed battle with an admiral who is not only equipped with haki, but only needs a second to escape from Rayleigh to defeat the Strawhats. Rayleigh would have to keep an enormous amount of pressure on Kizaru just in order to keep him in check.

Plus, read the chapters again and I'll assure you that you'll see Kizaru doing his usual joking thing whilst Rayleigh is actually sweating. If Rayleigh was really above Kizaru, he wouldn't be "thinking about a way to save the Strawhats", but would instead "save the Strawhats".

Anyone can think in battle.

All this talk about being out of their prime is just sad. all that means is that they have had more time to train their haki.

Typical haki > breathing arguement. It's not like some magical power that you get better at by being older. If anything, haki would probably be strongest if you were in your prime. Generating haki is nice, but it's not the force from Star Wars, and at the end of the day you'll still need to do something physical to accompany the haki.

Also: Admirals don't exactly seem to have just learned haki yesterday. If a twenty year difference = complete haki mastery then Luffy will never defeat the logia admirals.

Look at the whitebeard. Even out of his prime he was a monster. No single admiral could take him and akainu only got a blow in after he was stabbed by squardo and his body failed him.

Squardo's blow was nothing, Whitebeard never indicated it hurt him. Akainu got the blow in because of Whitebeard's sickness, funnily enough, this is of course Whitebeard not in his prime. Hence, the arguement.

And each of the admirals took on Whitebeard by themselves. In fact, all three admirals were winning against Whitebeard in the few pages we were able to see.

When garp showed up in front of the execution stand, there was not a single pirate who wasn't shitting himself except for whitebeard.

Well Garp does have a mean reputation...and there wasn't a pirate in the crowd other than Whitebeard who is probably equal to Garp. But we're talking about the admirals here...so...

P.S. When Akainu stabbed Ace and Sengoku held Garp down, there wasn't a single one of us who wasn't hoping Garp would give Akainu the beatdown And when Whitebeard was serious, he took down Akainu in a few seconds.

Oh yeah, because Whitebeard was joking around before Ace died?

I never like the old: "when Gary Stu gets serious" arguements. Besides, Whitebeard hit Akainu in the back and, as Whitebeard is not exactly an agile character, in a 1-1 battle Akainu never would have been caught like this. Add on the fact that Akainu then took a second quake before falling onto ground into the sea to then appear ahead of the WB pirates only minutes later and WB did not "defeat" Akainu.

I can argue WB < admirals all day, but fortunately this is the old three vs the admirals. I would not compare WB to any of the remaining old three, since none of them appeared to be hooked to IV drips and already on their deathbed before appearing. Minus a devastating fruit, I imagine Sengoku, Garp and Rayleigh are all physically superior to the falling-in-health Whitebeard.

[fistsofrage]

Not really. It's not some leisurely swim in calm waters and then a battle with a large sea king, it's a extreme speed battle with an admiral who is not only equipped with haki, but only needs a second to escape from Rayleigh to defeat the Strawhats. Rayleigh would have to keep an enormous amount of pressure on Kizaru just in order to keep him in check.

Plus, read the chapters again and I'll assure you that you'll see Kizaru doing his usual joking thing whilst Rayleigh is actually sweating. If Rayleigh was really above Kizaru, he wouldn't be "thinking about a way to save the Strawhats", but would instead "save the Strawhats".

Anyone can think in battle.


Typical haki > breathing arguement. It's not like some magical power that you get better at by being older. If anything, haki would probably be strongest if you were in your prime. Generating haki is nice, but it's not the force from Star Wars, and at the end of the day you'll still need to do something physical to accompany the haki.

Also: Admirals don't exactly seem to have just learned haki yesterday. If a twenty year difference = complete haki mastery then Luffy will never defeat the logia admirals.



Squardo's blow was nothing, Whitebeard never indicated it hurt him. Akainu got the blow in because of Whitebeard's sickness, funnily enough, this is of course Whitebeard not in his prime. Hence, the arguement.

And each of the admirals took on Whitebeard by themselves. In fact, all three admirals were winning against Whitebeard in the few pages we were able to see.



Well Garp does have a mean reputation...and there wasn't a pirate in the crowd other than Whitebeard who is probably equal to Garp. But we're talking about the admirals here...so...



Oh yeah, because Whitebeard was joking around before Ace died?

I never like the old: "when Gary Stu gets serious" arguements. Besides, Whitebeard hit Akainu in the back and, as Whitebeard is not exactly an agile character, in a 1-1 battle Akainu never would have been caught like this. Add on the fact that Akainu then took a second quake before falling onto ground into the sea to then appear ahead of the WB pirates only minutes later and WB did not "defeat" Akainu.

I can argue WB < admirals all day, but fortunately this is the old three vs the admirals. I would not compare WB to any of the remaining old three, since none of them appeared to be hooked to IV drips and already on their deathbed before appearing. Minus a devastating fruit, I imagine Sengoku, Garp and Rayleigh are all physically superior to the falling-in-health Whitebeard.

Raleigh cut Kizaru in the face and all Kizaru did to Raleigh was make him sweat a little. Forgive me for thinking that since Haki can be trained, then the longer you train it, the stronger it is, I must have been drunk when I made that statement *cough*. All of your arguments have pretty much no basis in the manga. Whitebeard took on all the admirals one at a time and took Akainu to the ground. If you can't see that and respect it that's your problem. Aokiji has major respect for Garp as do all of the vice admirals plus Sengoku, if that doesn't float your boat i don't know what does. Sengoku has a devil fruit and Garp doesn't and yet Garp is the one who is called a hero, if that doesn't say something to then you must not take rationale very easily. There is more evidence that these legendary "oldies" are not to be messed with in the manga than there is saying that an admiral can take them on. If Kizaru could have killed Raleigh he would have and yet he could not even keep him from escaping.

P.s. If you want to dream that the admirals are stronger than these old guys that's your prerogative but even in old age, Oda has never shown them to be that way and I doubt he ever will. In their prime they more than trump the admirals anytime of the day and they still do. And you seem to think Raleigh only fought one sea king in the entire calm belt and I'm sure you're wrong for that.

[beastboy]

While I agree with ur vote I've to disagree with ur part about Rayleigh.

I believe we had this discussion before. If damage-lines such as heavy breathing, sweating and the damage on his coat does not indicate "loosing" then what else?

What I was trying to say is that while he is tired, and panting, he might still be capable of winning. He is old and gets tired quickly when fighting against the speed of light, thats obvious, and was shown in the manga.
But he can have some trick or overpowered move that would make him win.
Or while having worse resisting he would still be a better swordsman than Kizaru. I mean, Rayleagh was sweating and with damage lines, but Kizaru had actual damage on his chick.

IMO the damage lines and the panting was to show that he wasn't having an easy time.
But that alone is not enough to say Kiz>Ray

He wanted to deal with him. Keyword in here is "wanted to". But he couldn't since Kiz was more than trouble for him already.

Croco also wanted to take WB's head, just like Buggy. Does that mean they were capable of doing that? No, same case with Rayleigh.

Buggy is stupid, and he didn't believe he could in fact kill WB.
Crocodile knew he couldn't do it, but he still tried, proof his he almost cried when WB got stabbed.
Rayleagh said he wished he could deal with an Admiral and a Shichibukai at the same time, do you believe someone who couldn't even deal with an Admiral would make such a statement?

[Freid]

Of course Garp, Sengoku and Rayleigh will win against the admirals. Rayleighs condition in his confrontation with Kizaru was as the result of someone not fighting for 20 years for goodness sake. Like it was stated by beastboy, even with Rayleigh actually slacking off for twenty years, he wished he could deal with an Admiral and Shichibukai at the same time which does not sound like someone incapable of dealing with one. With that said, unlike Rayleigh, Garp and Sengoku have actually been actively working for the marines and there has been absolutely no indication of old age effecting them so much as to put them below the admirals in strength. Or are you going to tell me it would be revealed that the newly shown Kong, who may have been serving in the marines longer than Garp and Sengoku, Former fleet admiral has in fact degenerated to vice admiral level or weaker than an admiral because of old age? For all intents and purposes, what has been portrayed of Garp and Sengoku is the exact opposite. Pre-time skip while they were still full-time marines, they still seemed to be the top dogs and not a shell of their former selves. The old age factor seems to only be detrimental when it causes an illness like with WB. WB's illness seems to have been the defining factor in his overall condition. Garp and Sengoku who are free of any illness and have been active for the past 20 years obviously don't suffer the same effects of old age as WB. Also people should refrain from bringing out silly interpretations for when Sengoku held Garp back from attacking Akainu. That scene only reinforced what was already obvious which was that Garp was stronger than Akainu.

[Bobbina]

uhh... Beast, he did not almost cry when WB was stabbed. He was actually trying to kill WB. And adding on to what you said, as i've said, Croc was trying to surprise kill him.

"It's not some leisurely swim in calm waters and then a battle with a large sea king"
Problem was, it wasn't a leisurely swim. Swimming in a huge sea, while being chased, fighting, and trying to go unnoticed through thousands monsters of hundreds of feet in length below you, with nothing but a sword, bare hands, and haki right after rowing your boat through part of the grand line then having it sink is NOT a leisurely swim. Those Sea Kings are infamous for a reason. Traveling through water is hard enough, but traveling through water punching and kicking hundred foot monsters born to kill and efficiently fight in water, while being immobilized by heavy wet clothes and water is NOT easy. And, it seems he used his hands only, not his haki, cuz pretty sure something that had fainted couldn't bleed and die and thrash. And as Fist said, I doubt he only encountered 1 sea king. Maybe only fought one, but had to be chased or something. Also, just rowing a boat in a storm is HARD as well as TIRING. Doubt someone like Rayleigh would go in a sailboat, if he had one. That would be pointless to him.

"Anyone can think in battle." Obviously. The point is, fighting someone extremely powerful, while thinking about the safety of 9 helpless others who are targeted by more extremely powerful enemies, is hard. Finding a way to save them is even harder. Then having ANOTHER enemy to come, who is also extremely strong, and have everyone cornered, then think about how to save them, while dealing with a person who's extremely powerful, is harder still. Th subject thought about decides the portion of the brain that is left for battle. This hopeless problem is hard to solve, and Rayleigh had no idea what to do. Stress pressures you, causing physical disadvantages.
"Whitebeard never indicated it hurt him" WB never indicated that ANYTHING hurt him. Even having his face half BURNED off. Besides the death of Oars and Ace. Then he teared up a bit. But that doesn't mean he DOESN'T feel pain. Besides, just because something doesn't hurt, doesn't mean it doesn't injure you and slow you down. Smoking doesn't hurt, it still harms you. You can't breathe as easily if you smoke alot, and you run short of breath quickly.

Just because you don't go serious, doesn't mean your joking. Before, he wasn't doing his best. He COULD'VE just created an earthquake of the same magnitude that cracked the fortress, and aimed it at one person. Besides, fighting several ppl's style is diff from fighting 1. You can't really punch and kick 1 thousand people with earthquakes without harming ur budds. Against Akainu he could go all-out by slamming Akainu around. Part of why Luffy doesn't take crowds as effectively, his best attack being gatling or gear third, where as someone like Kid could obliterate a crowd by throwing metal items against them. Does that mean Kid is WAY stronger than Luffy? No. Fighting one person is easier most of the time, then a whole bunch of ppl, even if the one person is stronger than the crowd put together into one person. Overwhelming attacks and teamwork confirm that.

If the admirals could take care of WB they would've done so LONG ago. Send 1 or 2 admirals with some VA or something and you could take care of WB basically. He doesn't always have his NW captains with him. Also, destroying the head easily scatters the rest of the army. Instead, the WG tried their best, even with the shichi and admirals and VA and Sengoku and Garp, to not conflict with WB. They practically crapped their pants when the found out Shanks and WB had contact. Besides, we're using WB as an example of the admiral's power and the oldies' power. And, DF is probably one of the most important factors here. If the admirals had no DF, the oldies' would own them any day, no scratch. So leaving out a devastating DF hardly makes the comparison close. They probably were physically more able than WB with his sickness and all, but yeah.......

[MaiSiaoSiao]

Blackbeard was the first character to use the word "Haki" in the manga

I think he meant BB dont know how to use Haki. XD

[vizardichigo]

The old guys take this fight...The Admirals are hella strong but i think they are a bit out of their league here...I think Rayliegh, Garp and Sengoku are the only 3 on WB's level in the manga...I think its safe to assume that the Admirals while powerul arent on WB's level..Not yet anyway, so based on that the old guys > the admirals...But it wont be a curbstomp by any means.

[BlackHair]

The 3 old fighters not being in their prime is the chief reason they'd lose. When all things are apparently "equal", stamina is the deciding factor, and old age causes stamina issues. There's other factors to consider as well. In terms of feats, powerscaling, and plot importance, the 3 Admirals win out on all 3.

Chief argument or whatever, that's ur only argument. Also nothing appears "equally" as u claim. Since Sengoku's and Garp's abilities are still not revealed yet. For the same reason winning in "feats" is no achievement, since Garp and Sengoku don't have any to compare to. Not sure about powerscaling, but I agree with plot-importance, however plot-importance is a invalid argument in a fan-fictional vs-thread.

Dejavu? This is almost like our long in history buried BB vs WB discussion. I remember u supporting BB with almost the same arguments as u do now the Admirals. I can only repeat, we have hardly seen anything from Sengoku, Rayleigh and especially Garp.

Current WB cannot defeat an Admiral without getting KO'd himself.

Well this is offtopic, thus I don't wane go into that discussion. But let me just tell u this, u will have hard time convincing me that any character portrayed so far ('till war arc) could win against WB.

Anyway, my point in mentioning WB in the first place was due to ur "age" argument. None of the Admirals could win against a weakened old! man. Im using WB as some kind of compare.

On a side note, the only "advantage" the Admirals had against WB was WB's old age. Other "advantages" such as Squado's stab wound and fighting on Marineford did not grant the Admirals a magical boost in power.

Any damageline on WB was a advantage for the Admirals. This includes damage on him of any kind of form (Squard, marine soldiers, canons balls etc). And I repeat, even having all those advantages they could not defeat him.

Just to make myself clear: this is not about WB's title as strongest man, but about the "old age" argument which u guys are pulling. Just cause someone is old and past his prime, doesn't make him weaker than the current prime top dogs. In WB's case it was a clear indication that he would have raped the Admirals one by one, if he was in his prime. Now obviously Garp, Sengoku and Rayleigh can't be considered as WB and Im not intending to do, however they are powerhouses on their own and unlike WB, they don't have any known illness or other limitation, except age. Which again might not matter that much, if their "prime self" was stronger than the Admrials current "prime". Also Garp himself shares some frighting history with Roger.

Garp is not portrayed as Roger's equal. Garp is portrayed as someone who is (was) close to Roger's level during his prime. At one point, Garp and Roger may have been equal to each other, or Garp was even stronger than Roger (e.g. Luffy-Smoker), but Garp, at his prime, was not equal to prime Roger.

What is ur basic for that claim? I don't remember reading anything which even might tend to support ur idea.

What I was trying to say is that while he is tired, and panting, he might still be capable of winning. He is old and gets tired quickly when fighting against the speed of light, thats obvious, and was shown in the manga.
But he can have some trick or overpowered move that would make him win.
Or while having worse resisting he would still be a better swordsman than Kizaru. I mean, Rayleagh was sweating and with damage lines, but Kizaru had actual damage on his chick.

IMO the damage lines and the panting was to show that he wasn't having an easy time. But that alone is not enough to say Kiz>Ray

Let's focus on canon materials (manga) only! Whether Rayleigh has some magic tricks up to his sleeve or not is a mystery and there is obviously no point in discussion about that, since there is no canon to back that up.

Rayliegh vs Kizaru was a offpanel/side panel battle. Not sure how u call it or how it is officially called. Anyway, we have two guys fighting, who were at the beginning of the battle fresh and without damagelines and near the end of the battle, one of them is showing damgelines. Thus the manga indicates that Rayleigh was loosing.

We can only form our opinion based on the little we have in the manga. There is nothing else. So until there is more canon, the manga indicates Kiz -> Ray! As simple as that.

Also about the cheek cut, Kiz was aiming for the SHs, so Ray was lucky to do some dmg. Im not trying to defend Kiz here, it was his own fault for underestimating Rayleigh and going after the rookies. But the moment Kiz started to take Ray serious, he couldn't land any more hits.


I hope u guys don't mind me answering both of ur quotes with the same reply, as it would save some time, since both are about the same issue.

Rayleagh said he wished he could deal with an Admiral and a Shichibukai at the same time, do you believe someone who couldn't even deal with an Admiral would make such a statement?

BB gives us a pretty good idea on the respective differences.

beastboy and Franckie, I hope u guys would stop taking character comments as "granted" over actual happenings in the manga.

About Rayleigh, he wanted to help the SHs more by dealing with the Admiral + Sento and the Pacisfista. However he didn't, cuase he was already fully handled with Kizaru. Im mean why making such comment, instead of actually helping them?! ..To answer ur question beastboy, Rayleigh could handle a Admiral, but more than that was out of question for him. Likewise, Kizaru could not handle more than Rayleigh.

About Blackbeard, that guy is a wildcard and a dumbass. After spending decades under WB u might expect him to know his former captain well, but apparently he doesn't. With his darkness ability he was over confident to take on WB, but he ended up begging for his life. Same case with his taunting words on Sengoku and Garp. He ate WB's fruit thus was again over confident in his ability, furthermore he was way too excited to think right. He "thought" he could defeat Garp and Sengoku and sink the MHQ fortress. It's just ridiculous to say Akainu > Sengoku Garp based on words of someone, who can't even estimate his own limits.

Such character statements are not to be taken seriously. Here some facts:

1. Despite BB words, he couldn't deal with WB. Despite BB taunts, he was send flying by Senoku's shockwave.
2. Despite Ray's words, he didn't deal with Sento and the PX.

There is no point in taking character statements seriously, if the actual happenings contradicts with that.

Im still with my vote for tie.

[Roarchu]

Squardo's blow was nothing, Whitebeard never indicated it hurt him.

they see me trollin' they hatin'

[mattiaildivino]

I agree with you about the strength of the first group. But the difference is very little. Garp is at the level of an admiral now,once he was stronger,almost as a fleet admiral, so he and Akainu.......it's a draw ,the same for Kizaru and Rayleigh,but Sengoku is a little stronger than Aokiji.so after that Sengoku defeats Aokiji,he comes to help one of the others ecc.

[Naruffy]

I agree with you about the strength of the first group. But the difference is very little. Garp is at the level of an admiral now,once he was stronger,almost as a fleet admiral, so he and Akainu.......it's a draw ,the same for Kizaru and Rayleigh,but Sengoku is a little stronger than Aokiji.so after that Sengoku defeats Aokiji,he comes to help one of the others ecc.

Fleet Admirals aren't chosen for their superior strength but their superior leadership skills. By your logic, Aokiji and Sengoku should be equal since Aokiji was recommended for fleet admiral.

[Tensei]

Garp,sengoku ,rayleigh !

[aceking888]

Didn't Garp and Sengoku successfully capture, PK, ROGER?
Roger and whitebeard tied, so
the admirals sucked at fighting whitebeard, and he was old
also at verge of death,
Garp and sengoku with rayleigh takes this.

[eefrit]

Well no, Roger gave up willingly because he knew he was dying. The Admirals sucked during at fighting Whitebeard? I think not. The only one Admiral who got to fight Whitebeard one on one without interruption was Akainu and both time he landed powerful blows to the elder pirate, before he was taken out by interferance or Whitebeard himself. Aokiji and Kizaru were both attacked before they really got to fight him, so we can't say they sucked. Since this fight only has 3 on 3, everyone will have their hands full so no chance of assistance for either side. I'm going to have to say that this fight will end in a tie. Although I am saying this because I don't know the extent of Garps power. He was confident enough to kill Akainu, but then again Blackbeard was confident he could kill Whitebeard. I'm not saying Akainu would win, but he would go down without a fight and haki has been shown to not really affect Akainu so...