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Thread: A Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series) [SPOILERS - BEWARE]

  1. #46
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Quote:
    Lady Stoneheart is probably less frightening looking than Dondarrion was. Remember, Dondarrion was killed and revived by Thoros 4-5 times iirc. Lady Stoneheart probably isn't riding into battle, so the constant dying and reanimating isn't going to take a toll on her because she isn't in those situations. Cat is like she is because of what happened to her, not because she's a zombie. That makes it even more depressing.

    You already saw that Cat only wants vengeance, that's why she nearly killed Brienne (a maybe actually killed Podrick and Hyle Hunt) and didn't even ask about Arya or Sansa.

    Jaime is on the road to redemption. He lost everything, and sometimes that's what it takes to humble a person. It's obviously a lie that Brienne told Jaime though, not even a fake Sandor could be roaming the countryside since the Brother Without Banners took his helm after Brienne killed Rorge. I'm not sure what to make of it...maybe Jaime's fate is unavoidable? He would certainly be of more use on The Wall than in the grave.
    I actually hope someone will make Cat be more reasonable, because otherwise it would be pointless. I hope she isn't out of his mind, because to have Jaimie if not as a friend, but at least as a person who can help or can be used is way better than to kill him. And I don't even know why she is still there. It would be better for her to try to find her children or to try to get her brother back or go to the north.
    And actually I believe that Dandarion was better than she is. At least he was more of a use as a character and as a leader than Cat is. Also he wasn't out of his mind even after so many deathes, while Cat looks to be.
    I actually see the story getting darker and darker after each volume, even though I don't know if it can be darker. I would even dare to say that sometimes when I read the story I feel that there is no hope and all the actions of different characters lead towards the end of Westeros.


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, it's sort of a crack theory in my opinion. All these open plotlines makes me doubt whether he'll really be able to finish it in two books.
    I really doubt that it's posible to finish the cicle in two or even three books (if there won't be like two volumes in each of them), because he not only has to resolve different plotlines, but he also normally depicts diffrent characters, their emotions and surroundings really deep, thus it will be difficult to end everything in a short way and not to loose the quality of the novel. Also of course there is still the big baddie - The Great Other to fight.

  2. #47
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I actually hope someone will make Cat be more reasonable, because otherwise it would be pointless. I hope she isn't out of his mind, because to have Jaimie if not as a friend, but at least as a person who can help or can be used is way better than to kill him. And I don't even know why she is still there. It would be better for her to try to find her children or to try to get her brother back or go to the north.
    And actually I believe that Dandarion was better than she is. At least he was more of a use as a character and as a leader than Cat is. Also he wasn't out of his mind even after so many deathes, while Cat looks to be.
    I actually see the story getting darker and darker after each volume, even though I don't know if it can be darker. I would even dare to say that sometimes when I read the story I feel that there is no hope and all the actions of different characters lead towards the end of Westeros.
    Yeah she is different than Dondarrion, but she was also killed under different circumstances. Thoros talked about how insane the BwB got when Dondarrion gave up his life to revive her (was that chivalry? what were the real reasons? Maybe Beric just wanted to die). Now they're just hanging anyone and everyone with any allegiance to the throne. The fact that she didn't even ask Brienne about Arya or Sansa tells me that she's not anything like Dondarrion was. Something is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I really doubt that it's posible to finish the cicle in two or even three books (if there won't be like two volumes in each of them), because he not only has to resolve different plotlines, but he also normally depicts diffrent characters, their emotions and surroundings really deep, thus it will be difficult to end everything in a short way and not to loose the quality of the novel. Also of course there is still the big baddie - The Great Other to fight.
    Two might be pushing it, unless they're at least the size of book 5. GRRM plans on there not being any new POV characters (aside from maybe the Prologue and Epilogue maybe?) from here on out, so we don't have to worry about more storylines being birthed from new POVs.

  3. #48
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    xi0
    Quote Quote:
    Yeah she is different than Dondarrion, but she was also killed under different circumstances. Thoros talked about how insane the BwB got when Dondarrion gave up his life to revive her (was that chivalry? what were the real reasons? Maybe Beric just wanted to die). Now they're just hanging anyone and everyone with any allegiance to the throne. The fact that she didn't even ask Brienne about Arya or Sansa tells me that she's not anything like Dondarrion was. Something is different.
    When I was reading the later parts with Dandarion I really felt that he wanted to die, because he was tired of constant fighting. He was called really handsome and quite wealthy lord, but after all his deathes he got hollow, even though after all those deathes he was still in his mind and I didn't see killing intent in him. I totally saw him as a person who became a warrior and gerilla mostly because of the sircumstances, even though he was a great and skilled warrior and knight.
    Hope I might be wrong and make fast conclusions, but for now Cat looks for me as totally insane and clueless person (even though even from the beginning of the story she didn't impress me as Ed Stark. For me from the beginning she looked as quite selfish person and the person who didn't think about the consecuenses of her deeds. Like when she "took Tyrion in custody") who just wants to kill in order to kill, because if she had any shred of sense she would have tried to find any info regarding her children, because Dondarion's people knew that Aria is still alive.

    Quote Quote:
    Two might be pushing it, unless they're at least the size of book 5. GRRM plans on there not being any new POV characters (aside from maybe the Prologue and Epilogue maybe?) from here on out, so we don't have to worry about more storylines being birthed from new POVs.
    Still, even if we don't get new POV characters we still have too many plotlines to resolve and also we get the main problem Others.
    I don't remember how many books are planned by Martin by now, but I see he will have to make from 2 up to 4 books.) Even though it would be great if he would have written even more. I like to read as more great books like Martin's as possible.

    Also there is one interesting thing. Will it be possible for them to get more obsidian if they finally unite the country. I can actually see evrything resolved if Stannis made alience with young Targarien, but it would be difficult.
    Also it's interesting if it is posible to reopen the tecnology of forging valirian steel.

  4. #49
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    When I was reading the later parts with Dandarion I really felt that he wanted to die, because he was tired of constant fighting. He was called really handsome and quite wealthy lord, but after all his deathes he got hollow, even though after all those deathes he was still in his mind and I didn't see killing intent in him. I totally saw him as a person who became a warrior and gerilla mostly because of the sircumstances, even though he was a great and skilled warrior and knight.
    Hope I might be wrong and make fast conclusions, but for now Cat looks for me as totally insane and clueless person (even though even from the beginning of the story she didn't impress me as Ed Stark. For me from the beginning she looked as quite selfish person and the person who didn't think about the consecuenses of her deeds. Like when she "took Tyrion in custody") who just wants to kill in order to kill, because if she had any shred of sense she would have tried to find any info regarding her children, because Dondarion's people knew that Aria is still alive.
    Dondarrion was doing honorable worked charged to him by the king himself when he rode out to bring Sandor to justice. He was killed by Sandor himself. Thoros revived him thereafter, and for what reason I don't know. But if we assume the first time they're brought back that they remember their past lives what Catelyn remembered was far worse and much more traumatizing. That's why I think she might be warped. Coupling that with maybe the resurrection maybe not being as effective coming from Dondarrion instead of Thoros himself (since he refused). It could lead to darkness.

    Beric told Arya himself that coming back again and again was wearing on him. That is was more difficult to do each time. He seized the opportunity to fulfill his promise to Arya, or at least getting the ball rolling by resurrecting her and he could finally rest in peace himself.

    That's a good point about the Brotherhood knowing about Arya, but was it just Dondarrion himself who knew that, or all of them? Don't remember. I know Harwin would have known Catelyn...hmmm, weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Also there is one interesting thing. Will it be possible for them to get more obsidian if they finally unite the country. I can actually see evrything resolved if Stannis made alience with young Targarien, but it would be difficult.
    Also it's interesting if it is posible to reopen the tecnology of forging valirian steel.
    I can't see him allying himself with anyone. He wants the throne for himself and himself only.

  5. #50
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    xi0
    Quote Quote:
    Dondarrion was doing honorable worked charged to him by the king himself when he rode out to bring Sandor to justice. He was killed by Sandor himself. Thoros revived him thereafter, and for what reason I don't know. But if we assume the first time they're brought back that they remember their past lives what Catelyn remembered was far worse and much more traumatizing. That's why I think she might be warped. Coupling that with maybe the resurrection maybe not being as effective coming from Dondarrion instead of Thoros himself (since he refused). It could lead to darkness.
    Yes, I agree that according to how it looked in the book it really looked that it was very painful for Beric to die countless times and then be countlessly revived and then he wanted to die finally and there he saw the posibility for him to rest, but I understand why Thoros didn't want to revive Cat, cause she wouldn't contribute to their buisness at all. I really think that it is a big looth that Dondarion died. He was actually a spledid and honorable man.

    Quote Quote:
    That's a good point about the Brotherhood knowing about Arya, but was it just Dondarrion himself who knew that, or all of them? Don't remember. I know Harwin would have known Catelyn...hmmm, weird.
    I really got an impresion that not only Dondarion, but also several of them should have known, including Thoros as he was Beric's right hand and of course Harwin as he was the one who spoke with Arya several times. Thus I believe Cat should have also know about her daughter being alive. Thus I don't get why she only seeks revenge, while not trying to save what she can save.

    Quote Quote:
    I can't see him allying himself with anyone. He wants the throne for himself and himself only.
    Agreed, but that's a good posibility for fighting Others and Wights and he knows how terrifying they are, so he might choose this path after some thinking, though I also doubt it.

  6. #51
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Yeah, Catelyn acting the way she does is sort of nonsensical. There has to be something else there

    Also, I think with each death and revival Dondarrion also lost a portion of his life's memories. That would make it even worse.

    Thoros refused to resurrect Cat because she had been dead too long, if I'm recalling correctly. I'm not entirely sure if Beric revived her himself using the same method Thoros used or Thoros was convinced to do it somehow, I forget.

    I also find it weird that after Dondarrion was killed and resurrected, and Thoros and his group started becoming bandits that Thoros got more powerful than he ever was. Remember, he didn't revive Dondarrion on purpose, he was merely giving the parting kiss that's a custom Red Priests have. Maybe the same thing happened with Catelyn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Agreed, but that's a good posibility for fighting Others and Wights and he knows how terrifying they are, so he might choose this path after some thinking, though I also doubt it.
    Others and Wights attacking the Wall and breaching it really doesn't seem like it's happening anytime soon. We know Cotter Pyke was overrun at Hardhome and Jon didn't send any help so everyone up there might already be Wights. Winter just started, so it's hard to really know. I think the Ramsey-Stannis thing will be resolved first.

    What do you think is going on with Jon by the way? A lot of fans don't want to accept that he may be dead, and GRRM left it as a cliffhanger on purpose. We can't really be surprised by him killing Jon off, because it's not anything new, but if his storyline is over, it just feels completely weird. Too many things going on at the Wall.

  7. #52
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Forgot to follow this thread and I dunno how to follow without posting ._.'

  8. #53
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Farfalla View Post
    Forgot to follow this thread and I dunno how to follow without posting ._.'
    Get out!

    You'll spoil yourself

  9. #54
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    What? Don't you guys use spoiler tags? D:

  10. #55
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Farfalla View Post
    What? Don't you guys use spoiler tags? D:
    No, this is for people caught up with the books

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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Oh, then I'm out ._.

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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    xi0
    Quote Quote:
    Also, I think with each death and revival Dondarrion also lost a portion of his life's memories. That would make it even worse.
    Yeah, if that's right, then it was even more painful for Beric to live like this, when you know that eventually can lost significant parts of your memory.
    Also, I don't remember if Dondarion had someone to sucsess him as a lord?

    Quote Quote:
    Thoros refused to resurrect Cat because she had been dead too long, if I'm recalling correctly. I'm not entirely sure if Beric revived her himself using the same method Thoros used or Thoros was convinced to do it somehow, I forget.

    I also find it weird that after Dondarrion was killed and resurrected, and Thoros and his group started becoming bandits that Thoros got more powerful than he ever was. Remember, he didn't revive Dondarrion on purpose, he was merely giving the parting kiss that's a custom Red Priests have. Maybe the same thing happened with Catelyn?
    I actually don't remember how Cat was resurected, but still it's more plausible that Dondarion gave his life for her. The thing is I believe even though Toros got a bit more powerful, but still he couldn't maintain more than one person living. Otherwise I don't see Dondarion dying. We also know that Thoros got way slimer than before, thus I think he used part of his own lifeforce to revive Beric each time.
    Also I see it that the first time he didn't intend to revive him, but that was made on the spot, but then he got a glimpse of how to do it and then he made it better.

    Quote Quote:
    Others and Wights attacking the Wall and breaching it really doesn't seem like it's happening anytime soon. We know Cotter Pyke was overrun at Hardhome and Jon didn't send any help so everyone up there might already be Wights. Winter just started, so it's hard to really know. I think the Ramsey-Stannis thing will be resolved first.
    The thing is that it seems that Wights can swim and thus they can just swim around the Wall and get to Cotter Pyke's stronghold and inhabbited regions and then... it might be way more problematic for everyone in the North and other parts of Westeros.

    Quote Quote:
    What do you think is going on with Jon by the way? A lot of fans don't want to accept that he may be dead, and GRRM left it as a cliffhanger on purpose. We can't really be surprised by him killing Jon off, because it's not anything new, but if his storyline is over, it just feels completely weird. Too many things going on at the Wall.
    I hope he isn't dead as for me he wasn't only my favourite character, but also I thought of him as protagonist. I hope he was only badly injured. Also for now I see him as the only person to be able to lead everyone against Others and Wights.
    The only way I can see John dying if he will be revived then by Melisandra.

  14. #58
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    xi0

    Yeah, if that's right, then it was even more painful for Beric to live like this, when you know that eventually can lost significant parts of your memory.
    Also, I don't remember if Dondarion had someone to sucsess him as a lord?
    He was betrothed to Edric Dayne's aunt Allyria before he died. I don't know anything about Dondarrion's family at Blackhaven, or whether he had any, so I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I actually don't remember how Cat was resurected, but still it's more plausible that Dondarion gave his life for her. The thing is I believe even though Toros got a bit more powerful, but still he couldn't maintain more than one person living. Otherwise I don't see Dondarion dying. We also know that Thoros got way slimer than before, thus I think he used part of his own lifeforce to revive Beric each time.
    Also I see it that the first time he didn't intend to revive him, but that was made on the spot, but then he got a glimpse of how to do it and then he made it better.
    It's true to think Thoros could only have one revived corpse at a time, whether he revived Cat as well or not. Good point.

    What's interesting about Thoros though is that he's now capable of things he never was when he was still a Red Priest. It makes no sense. He can catch his sword on fire without a flame and revive corpses. As well as see things in the flames. Melisandre and Moqorro are powerful too, but they're still servants of R'hllor. Thoros really isn't. It makes me wonder if his abilities are influenced by something else, or whether he's chosen in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    The thing is that it seems that Wights can swim and thus they can just swim around the Wall and get to Cotter Pyke's stronghold and inhabbited regions and then... it might be way more problematic for everyone in the North and other parts of Westeros.
    I wasn't talking about Eastwatch. Pyke set sail for Hardhome, where Mother Mole took a bunch of Wildlings after they were defeated at the wall. Jon received a letter saying there were Wights in sight and that they attacked Pyke's men and that he should send help via land, but Jon was stabbed before he could put plans in motion (I think he meant to send Tormund, but who knows what happened?). That means many more Wights, unless slavers pick up more of them, and even they could be turned into more Wights

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I hope he isn't dead as for me he wasn't only my favourite character, but also I thought of him as protagonist. I hope he was only badly injured. Also for now I see him as the only person to be able to lead everyone against Others and Wights.
    The only way I can see John dying if he will be revived then by Melisandra.
    I think there were some clues in the book. Something about him being stabbed multiple times, one stab burned like fire and his wound "smoked" and that he never felt the fourth. It's weird. Some think he'll be Azor Ahai reborn due to some clues concerning the prophecy and Melisandre only seeing Jon in the fires. There are other theories about Azor Ahai though...Stannis, Victarion, Dany, etc. So it's hard to tell

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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    xi0
    Quote Quote:
    He was betrothed to Edric Dayne's aunt Allyria before he died. I don't know anything about Dondarrion's family at Blackhaven, or whether he had any, so I'm not sure.
    So that's somewhat of a sad story, when such a noble man was striped of a posibility to become a great lord and make a family.((

    Quote Quote:
    What's interesting about Thoros though is that he's now capable of things he never was when he was still a Red Priest. It makes no sense. He can catch his sword on fire without a flame and revive corpses. As well as see things in the flames. Melisandre and Moqorro are powerful too, but they're still servants of R'hllor. Thoros really isn't. It makes me wonder if his abilities are influenced by something else, or whether he's chosen in some way.
    I think all more or less powerful R'hllor's priests can actually perform. The same Melisandra used fire at some point to take down an enemy. If we talk about Thoros... I think before he wasn't actual priest. He was more swordsman and drunkard. I believe Dondarion and his deeds made Thoros in actual priest even though he might not think of himself as one now.

    Quote Quote:
    I wasn't talking about Eastwatch. Pyke set sail for Hardhome, where Mother Mole took a bunch of Wildlings after they were defeated at the wall. Jon received a letter saying there were Wights in sight and that they attacked Pyke's men and that he should send help via land, but Jon was stabbed before he could put plans in motion (I think he meant to send Tormund, but who knows what happened?). That means many more Wights, unless slavers pick up more of them, and even they could be turned into more Wights
    Yes, yes I got what you said. The thing is that I forgot the actual name Eastwatch.
    I just thought that if Wights can more or less swim they can get to Eastwatch and put a fight there or even go to Stark's lands.

    Quote Quote:
    I think there were some clues in the book. Something about him being stabbed multiple times, one stab burned like fire and his wound "smoked" and that he never felt the fourth. It's weird. Some think he'll be Azor Ahai reborn due to some clues concerning the prophecy and Melisandre only seeing Jon in the fires. There are other theories about Azor Ahai though...Stannis, Victarion, Dany, etc. So it's hard to tell
    That would be actually interesting! I never thought of such a posibility! John being Azor Ahai is a good and interesting posibility as I really thought of him as a protagonist. Before I thought there is a posibility of Deineris being Azor Ahai,because of her sacrifices of her son and Khal Drogo, but of course for me John seems better. Also... Stannis doesn't seem to be Azor Ahai, because of his sword and other things.

  16. #60
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    Re: Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I think all more or less powerful R'hllor's priests can actually perform. The same Melisandra used fire at some point to take down an enemy. If we talk about Thoros... I think before he wasn't actual priest. He was more swordsman and drunkard. I believe Dondarion and his deeds made Thoros in actual priest even though he might not think of himself as one now.
    Ah, really good point there. I figured since Thoros didn't really practice and offer sacrifices like most Red Priests do, that he couldn't really be considered faithful. Melisandre and Moqorro are way more into the ceremony of the religion. Thoros and those two both having powers could be the perfect example of "there are many ways to skin a cat".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Yes, yes I got what you said. The thing is that I forgot the actual name Eastwatch.
    I just thought that if Wights can more or less swim they can get to Eastwatch and put a fight there or even go to Stark's lands.
    My mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    That would be actually interesting! I never thought of such a posibility! John being Azor Ahai is a good and interesting posibility as I really thought of him as a protagonist. Before I thought there is a posibility of Deineris being Azor Ahai,because of her sacrifices of her son and Khal Drogo, but of course for me John seems better. Also... Stannis doesn't seem to be Azor Ahai, because of his sword and other things.
    The circumstances surrounding the attack on Jon really leads credence to the theory that he's Azor Ahai. Melisandre's prophecy was this -

    "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

    Red star bleeds - Patrek's blood on his star-laden heraldry after he was killed by Wun Wun the giant. Possibly also just the Red Comet.

    Darkness gathers - Possibly a metaphor for Winter arriving, or a reference to the members of the Night's Watch and the opening line of their vows. (Night=Darkness)

    Amidst Smoke - Jon's steaming wound

    And Salt - Bowen Marsh's tears when he gets in on the attack on Jon

    Wake dragons out of stone - ?...not really sure. Melisandre said all she saw was Jon in the flames. Davos also thought Mel was referring to the stone dragons of Dragonstone, but that can't be the case. Maybe it's a metaphor for something Jon will do? Allying with Aegon? Dany maybe? Maybe restoring the Targaryen House himself, if he really is Lyanna Stark's and Rhaegar Targaryen's son?

    Azor Ahai being reborn isn't going to be as mystical/magical as the prophecy is, because nothing in the series is all that mystical or magical. Things are left ambiguous.
    Last edited by xi0; January 24, 2012 at 12:26 AM.

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