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Thread: Claymore Tournament Archived (Completed) Fights Thread

  1. #166
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    I really don't understand these thoughts.

    What then is an Abyssal One to you guys? What makes Awakened rank 1: an Abyssal One vs an Awakened rank 1, but non-Abyssal One, an AB?

    ------------------------------------------

    I just don't understand the difference, as here's how I look at it:

    ranks 2-47 -> Awakens -> ("weaker") Awakened -> Awakened Being (AB)
    rank 1 -> Awakens -> ("strongest") Awakened -> Abyssal One (AO)
    rank S -> Awakens -> Super Awakened -> Super Abyssal One (SAO)
    two half-merged rank 1's -> Awakens -> Super Awakened -> SAO

    *Beth -> rank 2 -> Awakens -> AB
    Rigardo -> rank 2 -> Awakens -> AB
    Agatha -> rank 2 -> Awakens -> AB
    Dauf -> rank 3 -> Awakens -> AB
    Ophelia -> rank 4 -> Awakens -> AB

    Isley -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 1st
    Riful -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 2nd
    Luciela -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 3rd

    Rosemary -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AB (HUH?! This makes no sense to me. Could any of you explain why/how you come to this opinion?)

    Rosemary -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 4th
    *Beth -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 5th
    Alicia -> rank 1 -> Awakens -> AO -> 6th

    Priscilla -> rank S -> Awakens -> Super Abyssal One (SAO)

    Destroyer -> Awakened rank 1 (Luciela) and Claymore rank 1 (Rafaela) half-merged together -> Awakens -> SAO

    *It's my understanding that Beth is actually a rank 1 too, because Rubel said that Rafaela had the same power as her sister Luciela, so would Beth not have the same power as her sister Alicia? And they do seem equal in power as well. Also, there's the trainee Awakened Twins sisters and they too are equal in power. So, it strongly seems (in my opinion) that ALL sisters are equal in power to each other. Luciela=Rafaela, Alicia=Beth, trainee Awakening Twin sister 1=trainee Awakening Twin sister 2. But, if you want, you can think of Beth as a rank 2 instead as well, and not a rank 1, like I do.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    why do you have the opinion that Rosemary isn't even an AO, let alone being so weak?

    the "battle scene" wasn't even a battle scene. Rosemary was so "drunk" with her own pride in her power of being a rank 1, that she thought she could easily play around with rank S Teresa, and that's just what she did ignorantly, and unfortunately, that is ONLY WHAT WE SAW OF ROSEMARY, not realizing that she was actually completely out-powered by Teresa, until Teresa proves it to Rosemary in literally only 4 actions/events:

    1. Teresa is uninjured even after Rosemary had thrashed, bashed, and smashed her around.
    2. Teresa with no yoki release, simply twists her wrist and rips off Rosemary's Awakened hand/arm that was holding her.
    3. Teresa releases 10% yoki merely for practice and fun.
    4. Teresa slices charging Rosemary into pieces, killing her.


    the point of this is that this "battle" simply did not show us any combat abilities of Rosemary, but never does it suggest that Rosemary is weak or has no abilities (we just unfortunately never got to see them). This is Teresa we're talking about. I now this is debatable, so this is only my opinion, but the same result would have occured if it was Luciela, Riful, Isley, Beth, or Alicia substituted in for Rosemary instead. Teresa was able to play with Rosemary (scary!)!, whom in my understanding is no different from all the other Awakened rank 1's, or AO's.

    Yet many people use this "battle", to say that Rosemary is just an AB, is weak, and has no combat abilities. This is just not true in my understanding. But, unfortunately, we do indeed NOT know what Rosemary is capable of, sighs.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 07:50 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  2. #167
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    My vote is on Luciela. At least Luciela went toe to toe with Isley. Although she suffer a defeat because she ran out of juice.

    Rosemary may have awaken but to have her hand rip off by Teresa. Teresa haven't even awaken and even tap into her Yoki power too.

    I think Rosemary is probably even weaker then Elena/Irene. I can probably see her as strong as Helen or Deneva.

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  4. #168
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    This one was very difficult. I voted on Clare because she always have an ace up on her sleeve. She find hope and strength when needed and always save the day. Offcourse, she is the main character and will never lose.

    Although Rafaela may have age and wisdom on her side and also being potential rank 1. Clare as I say it, always have an Ace up her Sleeve. LOL!

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  6. #169
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    Not all rank 1's are exactly equal in power, but they are close enough that they're still rank 1's, and not rank 2's. Let's make this distinction at least.

    Isley might seem more powerful to some people then Luciela or Riful are, but it's not by that much, even if you believe he is.

    Also, "age/experience", doesn't mean that much either. Luciela, whom is a newer/"younger", Awakened rank 1, than is Isley, still nearly rivaled him in battle. "Baby" Awakened rank 1, Alicia, seemed to be rivalling "old" Riful. Priscilla herself is newer/"younger" then Isley, Riful, and Luciela are, yet she's far beyond them, as a SAO. So, "age/experience", really makes no difference here either in terms of their power levels

    Point being is that being the newer/"younger" Awakened rank, Rosemary, doesn't make her being weaker then the "older" Awakened rank 1's (Isley, Riful, and Luciela).

    -----------------------------------------

    Joe:

    I don't understand how you can be of the opinion that an Awakened rank 1 is even weaker in power then the power of a Claymore rank 2 (Irene). This makes no sense for me. Is not Rosemary an Awakened rank 1? Yet, you're of the opinion she's actually even less powerful than a Claymore rank 2 (Irene)? This makes no sense for me.

    Could you please explain why/how an Awakened rank 1 (Rosemary), is still an Awakened rank 1, yet she has even less power than that of a rank 2 Claymore (Irene)? Why/how do you come to the conclusion that Rosemary is this weak? And, if Rosemary is weaker than a Claymore rank 2 (Irene), why/how do you explain the Organization having her as a rank 1?
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 07:41 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  7. #170
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Fê - forever alone's Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    In my view, Rosemary is not an AO, nor in power nor in title, although there is no way to prove such statement.

    Thinking that being a rank 1 is the same as being AO isn't a careful thought. Alicia and Beth were numbers 1 and 2 seven years ago, but they couldn't match Riful yet, although they were rank1.

    So, Rosemary could be just one warrior that was demoted one rank and awakened. That doesn't implied she was actually an AO, but as I said, there are no proves.

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  9. #171
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Wowzers's Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    When it comes to Rosemary, you said it yourself in the opening:

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    Rosemary was the rank 1 after Luciela Awakened and became the 3rd Abyssal One, but then Teresa was promoted without explanation to rank 1, demoting Rosemary to rank 2. Unfortunately nothing is known about Rosemary, except that this angered her as she couldn't imagine being weaker then Teresa and thus having her rank 1 taken from her....
    Rosemary was made rank 1 after the Luciela incident. When Luciela awakened, she practically wiped out the organization so Rosemary was just the strongest one of the survivors at that time. Her self importance grew as she held the position but her power didn't...at least not enough to be worthy of the rank 1 position. Then Teresa comes along and demonstrates what a real number 1 is like. (Sorry! A little fan-boy is lurking in the background.)

    To put this in perspective, Alicia and Beth were just killed in the story. That means that Audrey (the current #3) is now the organization's #1. Do you think she is worthy of that position? I don't think so.

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  11. #172
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Vengeance's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    Didn't they already have a battle in a mental realm where Clare won? My vote goes to Clare.

  12. #173
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Vengeance's Avatar
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    Re: Rigardo vs. Agatha

    My vote goes to Agatha. Rigardo is a berserker type with poor regeneration abilities while Agatha has that unique body of hers which would allow her to attack from countless directions while taking a ton of damage.

    -------------------------------------------------

    Moderator message by: HegemonKhan
    Voting/Poll Results:

    Total Votes: 25
    Rigardo: 19 = 76.00%
    Agatha: 6 = 24.00%
    Winner: Rigardo

    Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 02, 2010 at 01:59 AM.

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  14. #174
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member killy-.-'s Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    the problem is .. we havent seen anything to be honest, she was just a measure stick for Teresa, the same problem with Irene how can someone tell how strong they are ( Rosemary and Irene) if they did fight vs Teresa, if Teresa really wanted to kill off all AO she could easily do it. Rosemary didnt expect Teresa to be so powerfull and she died a sec after she had realized how strong Teresa is. The same with Luciela we havent seen too many battles of her.

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  16. #175
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    "... so Rosemary was just the strongest one of the survivors at that time." -wowzers

    we don't know this. this is speculation on your part.

    just as possible: Rosemary *IS* the rank 1 that she was put as by the Org.

    Just like Priscilla was truly a rank 1 or rank S to take Traitor Teresa's place, could not Rosemary have been the next rank 1 for after Luciela?

    Saying that Rosemary was merely the strongest of the surviving Claymores, has no basis in the manga, or am I wrong? Is there somewhere in the manga that I missed or forgot about, which says that Rosemary was merely the strongest of the survivors and not really a true rank 1?

    both of our opinions are speculations, as the manga doesn't say either way. However, for me, at least my view has the backing that Rosemary was put as a rank 1, and in all other cases, the Claymores put at rank 1 by the Organization, are indeed deserving of that rank 1 position.

    I feel I have the stronger opinion here, but I waiting to be happily proved wrong, hehe. Though, none of the arguments so far, have been convincing for me to agree with you.


    -what makes Rosemary not worthy of being a rank 1? she got pwned by Teresa? well, Priscilla (whom would become even far more powerful then AO Isley) got pwned by Teresa too, so does this mean that Awakened Priscilla is not a AO, let alone a SAO, even though she clearly is so?

    -when did Audrey get promoted-moved to fill the rank 1 spot for Alicia? I understand that she is still a rank 3, even though the Org is missing their ranks 1 and 2 now.

    -Miria moved up in the ranks as well, from rank 17 to rank 8 to rank 6. And it wasn't from vacancies of those ranks. Miria got more powerful, Miria improved, and so they adjusted her ranking to match it. This somewhat suggests that the Org doesn't just bump everyone up in rank just because they've lost those higher ranks. Being a rank 1 means you're worthy of it. The Org only promotes those that are worthy of it, not merely to fill in the just killed off higher ranks.

    -We've had many high ranks killed off, and no weaker Claymore suddenly took/promoted up to their place. When Ophelia was killed by Clare, (intentionally ignoring rank 5 Rafaela for obvious reasons) why didn't Miria get bumped up to rank 4?

    -there's also the example of Galatea and Renee. Galatea is alive, because the Org would not execute Galatea until Renee proved herself capable of being an adequate replacement Eye. This suggests the same with the rankings.

    --------------------------------

    let's use an analogy:

    some people feel that Isley dominated Luciela in their battle with each other. Thus they feel that Luciela is weaker then Isley.

    Why do these people still feel Luciela is an Abyssal One? Especially when Luciela is "proved" (to them/their analysis of the battle) to be weaker than Abyssal One Isley? Why isn't Luciela just an AB, I mean she's "weaker" than Isley, so she can't be an Abyssal One, right?

    Well, this is the very thing you're saying about Rosemary, and Rosemary never even fought another Abyssal One anyways, but rather a rank S Claymore instead, none other than Teresa herself.

    Do you think that Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, or even Awakened Priscilla would do better against Teresa? If yes, then you're saying that weaker Rosemary can't thus be an AO. So, then you'd have to cede as well that "weaker" Luciela can't be an AO either.

    -------------------------

    and addressing "my fanboyism":

    I actually like both of them and their art/looks especially.

    but, I actually definately like Luciela much better. So my defense of Rosemary has nothing to do with any possible fanboyism, as my fanboyism is in favor of Luciela, not Rosemary.

    I mean come on, Rosemary vs Luciela, isn't it obvious? Alien Queen vs a Neko (or a female nine-tailed naruto fox, lol, for you Naruto manga fans)

    Luciela is way more HAWT! (rosemary is a bit ugly like Rafaela is, "hard-battle" faced)
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 08:24 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  17. #176
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    "Aren't they the same person now... Is Clare suposed to off herself to win? Raphaela has already offed herself... twice! So does that make her the winner by going out a loser?" -Ryus

    for this, we're ignoring *obviously* their current state, so they can be pitted against each other in this fight, lol

    Also, let's presume that they hate each other, and this is their chance to go at each other, hehe

    -------------------------------------

    "Didn't they already have a battle in a mental realm where Clare won? My vote goes to Clare." -vengeance

    that "rafaela" was *NOT* Rafaela, as Rafaela was half-merged to dead-corpse bodied Luciela, and now were Awakening into the Destroyer's towering shell/exoskeleton Twin Goddesses of Love Awakened body. So obviously whatever Clare was "battling" it wasn't Rafaela in the flesh, it wasn't the real/actual Rafaela.

    -----------------------------------

    so, again, this fight is between CLARE and RAFAELA (sorry for the confusion with this fight), not Clare-Rafaela-Destroyer-Priscilla thingy nor an illusion of "Rafaela".

    (though I guess if you can argue it, you can use the battle between the illusion of Rafaela in your arguments as to who would win, though I personally will be highly skeptical of it, you need to argue it really well to try to convince me anyways)
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 08:38 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  18. #177
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Vengeance's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    What I took from that mental battle was that while suppressing her Youki Clare doesn't stand a chance against Rafaela as seen when Rafaela cut her down. However once Clare stops suppressing her Youki (starts fighting seriously) Clare is the one who comes out on top. The Claymore numbers for the Ghost of the north are completely irrelevant to their actual fighting ability. 7 Years ago Clare was able to stop an Awakened former number 2. With 7 years of hardcore training that all of the Ghost underwent it isn't any surprise that she would be cable of fighting a Claymore who has the ability of a number one. I don't see how you can honestly say that Raphaela would be better based on the current timeline of Clare & when Raphaela actually went to sleep.

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  20. #178
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    Re: Luciela vs. Rosemary

    Alright, we have to understand that rank is only base on where the Claymore is station at and also it is for the Organization put you in a certain rank order for your position at the time being until someone is ment to take up that rank. Even Galetea mention something about this during the Battle in Rombona with Agatha.

    Just because Rosemary was rank 1 at the time being, doesn't mean she was clearly an overwhelming strong Claymore. What I was stating is that Rosemary might have only be as strong as Helen or Deneva Ghost now. No where near Miria/Clare/Teresa/Priscilla.

    Like I said before, to have her Awaken form hand be ripped off by Teresa just show how pathetic she is as an Awakening. Yes, like most of the member here say, she is only a AB, not and AO.

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  22. #179
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    It was Partially Awakened Clare that killed Rigardo. (Near) current (lol) Claymore Clare is definately more powerful than earlier Claymore Clare, and same for (near) current (lol) Partially Awakened Clare as being more powerful than earlier Partially Awakened Clare when she had killed Rigardo.

    However, we don't know if (near) current (lol) Claymore Clare's power level is (more, less, or equal to) compared to earlier Partially Awakened Clare.

    -----------------------------------------

    one of many of the problems with the battle between Clare and the Illusion of "Rafaela", Clare was killed in it... and yet she wasn't in it... I'm still confused by this... to this day.

    ---------------------------------

    Clare has yet to fight a rank 1 Claymore

    Clare herself said that Riful would tear her to pieces

    The Agatha battle was corrupted (too many interferences) and is really indeterminable as to how powerful or not Clare is.

    Same for the Priscilla battle, as it was corrupted with Clare's loss of her Partial Awakening when her huge blade arms refused/stopped inches from impaling into Priscilla's face/head and then retracted back into Clare's body, and would no longer come back out.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 09:20 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  23. #180
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Rafaela vs. Clare

    I don't think we should pit Clare with anyone. It's like I said, she is practically an Main Character. Seems as weak as she be in the beginning, she just pop up with inner strength and "POOF!" she is stronger.

    Anyway the new Clare has to have a stronger sensor then All Claymore sensor present because she was the only one to budge the merged Twin. Renee couldn't budge it and Galatea can only sense Clare inside but not communicate with it.
    Last edited by Joe7133; November 30, 2010 at 11:36 PM.

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