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Clare is not "All Powerful", she's no "Teresa", as Priscilla "smacked" (pwned) Claymore Clare quite good and wasn't concerned about (the briefly) Partially Awakened Clare, either.
and to repeat myself, Clare herself said that Riful would tear her to pieces. This suggests that Clare is not as powerful as Riful (yet Clare still took on Priscilla, whom is even more powerful then Riful, lol! Did Clare actually think she was going to win? lol). Well, it's also possible that Clare might just have been referencing her as a Claymore being unable to defeat Riful, but not referencing whether her as a Partially Awakened or Fully Awakened, could or not.
Vote on what we know/seen (text or pic) in the manga, and/or reasonably/logically infer/assume as well from within the manga.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 09:47 PM.
I don't think that's a good argument because:
then why aren't all/any ranked being actually much weaker then their given rank?
if you say that Rosemary didn't deserve to be rank 1, then I can just as well say that Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Teresa, and Priscilla didn't deserve to be rank 1. I can say that Rigardo, Agatha, and Irene weren't really rank 2's. I can say that Galatea, Audrey, Sophia, and Dauf weren't really rank 3's. etc etc. They were just bumped/put at those ranks to fill the vacancies, they weren't really that powerful as the ranks they were given.
also, contrarily, for me, the manga over and over shows that in fact the ranks given by the Organization to their warriors is actually quite accurate and deserving.
and, yes there are exceptions (1/4 Yoma Clare, the 7 Ghosts, the 5 HAs, Rafaela, Miata, Teresa, Priscilla, the special rank 10, and maybe a few more exceptions), and that's exactly what they are, EXCEPTIONS
also, the demotions (and promotions) help prove that the rankings are accurate as well. when some one more powerful comes along, the ranks are adjusted to match up in the best way it can (the Organization doesn't want to create a new ranking system or use decimal/between rankings). it's not like there's anyone whom thinks that just because there's a demotion makes that character any weaker then they were. it just means there's now a more powerful character but not powerful enough to be considered a higher rank, or that the Org doesn't want to create a new ranking system or use decimal/between rankings.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 30, 2010 at 10:04 PM.
Joe, Vengence, and others, this is the Rafaela vs. Clare Fight Thread, so don't go off-topic (spam) about Teresa vs Priscilla (or whoever) here!
...it's coming... but not yet, lol
discuss/post about Clare vs Rafaela, please. Or, your posts will be deleted as they're spam.
(you can address/bring up Teresa/Priscilla as relevant points in your argument for or against Rafaela or Clare, but not a 1-2 liner just about Teresa vs Priscilla, as it's spam, and will get deleted)
I voted for Clare
As much as I think Rafaela could possibly handle even Partially Awakened Clare, I'm going to have to go with Clare, for a whole host of reasons, including Partially Awakened Clare, as probably Rafaela couldn't handle her, despite how much I believe she could, lol.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 02, 2010 at 08:13 AM.
When I said Rose was demoted I didn't mean she got weaker. My point is what I've already said: being a #1 doesn't grant an AO level power. We know this because Alicia and Beth, they were rank 1 sever years ago, but they weren't AO level untill they finish their training. Then, they got stronger and after seven years could match AO Riful, but before they couldn't.
The manga says the AO are all awakened #1 warriors, but what we have is a bunch of special cases that I won't even name.
We can't prove Rose was that stronger because she fought Teresa, and Teresa is Teresa, lol. But seeing Alicia and Beth rank 1 and not being able to match Riful seven years ago allows me to think maybe Rose wasn't a AO, though she was #1. We'll never know, never, lol.
80% Awakened Priscilla did better against Teresa than supposedly AO Rosemary did. Yeah I'm going with Luciela on this one but not by much. I have this idea that the longer you are Awakened the stronger you are compared to others.
chapter 110 page 13 has just confirmed that an Abyssal One is merely the name for rank 1's that have Awakened. So, ALL Awakened rank 1's are Abyssal Ones.
Also, Luciela (a "younger"/newer AO) was almost as powerful as Isley, but shouldn't Isley be much more powerful if you're correct?
Also, Awakened Alicia (a "younger"/newer AO), fought roughly equal (or even better) then Riful, but shouldn't Riful be much more powerful if you're correct?
I voted for Luciela
ONLY because we just don't know anything about Rosemary. As otherwise, I feel their probably equal to each other.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 02, 2010 at 08:15 AM.
Total Votes: 17
Alicia: 13 votes = 76.47%
Beth: 4 votes = 23.53%
Alicia vs. Beth
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Alicia
Alicia was first named by Miria after she and Deneve, Helen, and Clare killed the "spiderman" male AB, but Alicia was first revealed at the end of the Witches Maw, with her spying/analyzing Riful with the Black Coat (Orsay?). Alicia is the rank 1 of both Clare's and Clarice's Eras, and is known as Black Alicia. Together with her twin sister Beth, they are known as the Black Ones. It is revealed in a flash back that while Teresa was a trainee, the Organization forcibly took the babies, Alicia Zemas and Beth Zemas, from their parents, the Zemas, with banished/exiled Rafaela arriving in the town just afterwards hearing what happened, and would later encounter trainee Teresa, who often runs away to this same town as well. Next we finally see Alicia+Beth completed, with Alicia Awakening and easily killing all 11 ABs from the 23 ABs that survived the Pieta Battle. We then finally see Alicia as she battles Riful+Dauf, kills some of the AFs/AEs, and then battles Priscilla, who decapitates her.
Alicia's combat specs. Claymore Alicia was holding her own against Riful (albiet a weakened Riful), and has excellent swordsmanship. Also, it is to be noted that Priscilla actually decided to dodge Claymore Alicia's sword slice, so even Claymore Alicia is powerful and dangerous. But, Alicia's ultimate power is her Awakened body, from the Soul Link+Beth 's help and as an Awakened before she was decapitated by Priscilla. Awakened Alicia is a sleek black bladed being. Her blades can cut through anything as they seem to move back and forth like a buzz-saw, making extremely fine slices/cuts. And indeed we see it so, with Awakened Alicia obliterating even Dauf's hard bodied arm and I think slicing through Riful's ribbon-tentacles too. Awakened Alicia also did quite well against Priscilla, well until Priscilla got serious anyways, lol. Awakened Alicia is fast and agile, and extremely dangerous.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Beth
Beth too was first named by Miria after she and Deneve, Helen, and Clare killed the "spiderman" male AB, but Beth was first revealed at the Organization's HQs maintaining the Soul Link as Alicia Awakened and killed the 11 ABs of the 23 ABs that survived the Pieta Battle. Beth is the rank 2 of both Clare's and Clarice's Eras, and together with her twin sister Alicia, they are known as the Black Ones. Though, Beth seems to be equal to her twin sister Alicia in power, so Beth might actually be a rank 1 as well, but was merely put at rank 2, as their can't be two rank 1's. It is revealed in a flash back that while Teresa was a trainee, the Organization forcibly took the babies, Alicia Zemas and Beth Zemas, from their parents, the Zemas, with banished/exiled Rafaela arriving in the town just afterwards hearing what happened, and would later encounter trainee Teresa, who often runs away to this same town as well. Next, we see Beth as she battles Riful+Dauf, gets struck, knocked backwards far, and impaled by one of the Destroyer's huge projectiles. Beth is able to gain control of herself and the Infection, using it to Awaken herself into a headless feline rider. But then Priscilla shows up and they battle. Priscilla is about to kill Infected Awakened Beth, but Claymore Alicia shows up just in time and saves her beloved sister Beth (temporarily) from Priscilla. Alicia Awakens and the two of them try to kill Priscilla. Unfortunately, Priscilla first decapitates Awakened Alicia, and then kills Infected Awakened Beth.
Beth's combat specs. Claymore Beth was never seen in combat except for dodging Dauf's attacks easily, while maintaining the Soul Link. But, Beth's ultimate power is her Awakened body, as Infected Awakened Beth. Awakened Beth is like Luciela+Alicia, looking like an armored/bladed feline with a headless human rider on it (though Priscilla would rip off this "rider" body section of Infected Awakened Beth. I forgot the fight between Beth and Priscilla, so I don't remember all of what Beth can do. But, you can easily look it up. Though I do know that Beth's tail was extremely powerful and managed to impale Priscilla in her back greatly damaged Priscilla (except that she could and did regenerate her back right back up). Also, Infected Awakened Beth like all of the Destroyer's Fragments, could shoot off small prjectiles, which she only did before she died to Priscilla, but as we know they had no effect on Priscilla. Beth dies to Priscilla who killed her. So, Infected Awakened Beth did quite well against Priscilla, well until Priscilla got serious anyways, lol. Infected Awakened Beth is fast and agile, and extremely dangerous.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 04, 2010 at 02:33 AM.
Total Votes: 22
Isley: 16 votes = 72.73%
Riful: 6 votes = 27.27%
Isley vs. Riful
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Isley
Isley was first mentioned to us by Riful telling Clare about him having "acquired/tamed" (it's revealed later that actually Priscilla pwned him) a female one horned winged demon Awakened (Priscilla). He's then shown to us with Raki emerging from one of the towns in Alphonse with the underground cells where the Slave Traders had taken him to, just a few chapters before the Pieta Battle. Isley is the 1st Abyssal One, and is known as Isley the Silver King. He's actually the cruelest of the 3 Abyssal One, according to Riful, and revealed by himself as he tells Rigardo to CRUSH ALL LIFE at Pieta, and not just the 24 Claymores there. Luciela as well affirms the cruelty of Isley, saying how she hates his "pretty boy" true-real human-appearing body, as underneath he HATES others and intentionally sent his entire 30 AB army to a suicidal/kamekaze death.
Isley's combat specs. His swordsmanship is legendary. He can create his Bow N Arrow arm mode while not in his Awakened body, but his attacks with it is much weaker and he can't control the flight path of his arrows. We also see Isley battling Deneve+Helen too, but I forgot what he does/attacks with in this battle. Though you guys/girls can look it up on your own.
However, Isley in his Awakened body, a huge but extremely fast (faster then even Rigardo) Centaur body, is much more formable obviously. He has many Arm Modes. His Bow N Arrow Arm-Mode with is much more powerful and he can control the flight path of his arrows. He's also got his Axe Arm, Claw Arm, Broad Sword Arm, Shield Arm, and Lance Arm. Isley can regenerate, though we haven't ever seen him doing so within a battle's time frame.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Riful
Riful was first introduced to us in the Witches Maw chapters, and has had quite a role through the manga. Empress Riful was the youngest to become a rank 1 and to Awaken into an Abyssal One. She's the "Child Prodigy" and is extremely quick-witted and intelligent like Isley is. She loves only Dauf, even more then herself. Riful emotionlessly tortures Claymores to try to make them Awaken so she can match Isley's 30 AB army, which she utterly fails at, lol. She'd ultimately be killed by Priscilla.
Riful's combat specs. In her real-true human-appearing body, she can send out her ribbon-tentacles, and thus is still extremely dangerous. But, it's her Awakened body where her real power lies. She becomes a giant ribbon-tentacled "playground monkey bars cage" with a fake human body of her on top of it. Her real-true human-appearing body is able to move around within her Awakened body. This means she has great offense and defense abilities. She's not that fast though as she needed Dauf to lead the fast Renee towards her, waiting in ambush, but she seemed to "disappear or move fast" to Clare, Galatea, and Jean, when she fleed after the Witches Maw. Riful can regenerate as well, though we haven't seen her regenerate within a battle's time frame either.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 04, 2010 at 02:27 AM.
Anyways between Luciela and Rosemary it's hard to judge correctly so I have to compare a common enemy (sort of).
Isley was even to or slightly better than Luciela. Priscilla as an awakened being tore off half of Isleys body when she released some of her yoki.
Rosemary was weaker than base Teresa (very much weaker). Teresa HAD to go 10% to fight Priscilla who was at 80%.
Is it really a question of feats and who has beaten or fought the stronger oppoenents? It's probably impossible to gauge the difference between 80% Priscilla and fully Awakened. It could be just that 20% or it could be 2000%.
With that in mind I'm just going to stick to my theory of Strong Claymores = Strong ABs.
Just because of how effortlessly Rosemary was beaten and the fact that she wasn't #1 when she awakened (for a reason) I go with Luciela(who was #1) who was trained to be a controlled AO (like Alicia and Beth in the future) although unsuccessfully. Keep in mind Rafaela and her were at the same level of power as Claymores which leads me to believe she was stronger as a Claymore than Rosemary was.
Uh... don't they share the same mind? Is this fight even possible without one of them subconsciously choosing a victor? I mean it would be like me playing myself in a thumb war or game of chess. Right?
If your asking us if the rods made Beth stronger I'd say yes but since the twins shared power Alicia would have gotten stronger as a result too.
Choosing Isley not because I think he's clearly strong or has better abilities but just cause I think he's someone who's more battle experienced and cold hearted in a fight.
Though come to think of it he'd likely cut right through Riful's tentacles in close quarters... though his arrows would likely be useless against someone who can divide her body. Sure they can home but Isley wasn't a yoki sensing type so Riful could likely avoid them, deflect them, or catch them. The only chance Riful would have would be to remove Isley's limbs and that should be easier said than done since he's no push over.
For HegemonKhan and other people:
I'll explanations why Rosemary was weaker than an abysmal, using interesting data as Teresa and Priscilla:
If 10% Teresa annihilated a rosemary in an instant, could also kill easy at abysmal alicia, as did Priscilla in the Chapter 98.
So if Teresa was so strong 10%, at 80% could fight with Priscilla awake "winged" and it would be illogical because:
"Teresa said Priscilla overtake in the next fight (at level Claymore), because it had potential. Then Priscilla awake should exceed the level of Teresa (for his potential)"
But according to your idea of rosemary abysmal, Teresa could fight Awakened Priscilla, which I do not accept.
Last edited by su5so; December 01, 2010 at 06:19 PM.
I wish they would show more to Riful then just her Tentacle and not being killed by normal blows to the head. Beside this, the Ghost team just keep talking about her Immense Yoki which doesn't show forth. I mean, what's the difference between Riful and Agatha anyway. They both have massive tentacle. One uses hair and the other uses ribbon. They both hide in their ribbon and hair. The only thing would be Yoki power level which it would scratch my head.
So as I see it, Riful don't have agility, but she has mid range with tentacle. I'll give her speed with attacks because she usually use surprise attacks with tentacle. Her only defenses are hiding with-in her Ribbon and regenerating capability. I'm not sure how well her regenerating is. She is a good analysis too, but who's to say Isley isn't too.
My vote would be with Isley too since I've seen what he is capable off. Bow arm for range. Centaur body for speed. Shield/Spear for charging. Shield/Sword or Axe for cutting and slashing and blocking. He's very good in combat too because he proved by teaching Yagi.
Overall, he's got speed, agility, range, and a good defence. Not to mention, he can regenerate limbs too being blown up by Priscilla. It did took him a while to recover though.
I went with Alicia just because the Organization see her as #1.
My reason why the Organization choose Alicia as #1 is because of her Awaken form. It has a much more suitable form to take out AO. So if both sister where to Awaken and duke it out, it would be Alicia coming out on top because her form was build to fight AO. Maybe just not Priscilla/Destroyer because they are SAO. LOL!
This is yet another really tough fight. Presumably neither will be awakening for this fight since there would be no turning back form that choice.
It's tempting to claim that Alicia as the #1 would be stronger...but is she really?
If you remember, the organization was almost destroyed when Luciela awakened and they were pointing fingers squarely at Rafaela as being too weak to keep Luciela human. Wouldn't they have put special effort into making Beth extra strong this time around? In fact why not make the stronger of the two the one who holds onto their combined souls?
Despite this possibility, they are twins so it's almost a coin toss.
I'll think about it some more.