Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (10/13/14 - 10/19/14).
Forum News: The nomination phase of the Community Awards 2014 is live! Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Total Votes: 15
Miria: 14 votes = 93.33%
Renee: 1 vote = 6.67%
*For me only, in my opinion only*
I have to agree with Goral here, as Alicia+Beth were ranks 1 and 2 in their own right as Claymores. They just happen to be able to also Awaken their bodies (due to the Soul Link), while remaining Claymores (Claymore-human minded).
This is relevant because Galatea dared not even challenge Riful, and so I don't think Galatea is more powerful than Riful.
(also, Claymore Alicia was actually spying/analyzing Riful in the Witches Maw chapters, and Riful did NOT like it. If Alicia was a "weakling", Riful wouldn't have cared, or Riful would have gone after Claymore Alicia (and maybe the Black Coat with her) and kill her or maybe them, instead of "running or jumping or diving underground" away with Dauf)
Yet, (briefly) Claymore Alicia battled quite well against Riful (albiet she wasn't in top-peak condition).
So, if Riful is more powerful than Galatea, and Claymore Alicia is equal or near equal to Riful, then Galatea can't be more powerful then Claymore Alicia. This supports against Galatea having the greatest power level in her, Clare's Era.
so, Galatea vs Ophelia is a much closer/even (and thus more difficult to decide on) fight, as Galatea, in my view, is not more powerful than Claymore Alicia
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 27, 2010 at 04:56 AM.
I have opted for Noel. Like few above me, I think agility and speed can overcome brute force. Being ranked so high I am sure she has enough strength to cut her opponents.
I have voted for Galatea. I don't suppose she was ranked No. 3 just because she could sense and manipulate yoki. If she could manga to distract Ophelia for a broef moment, she could cause temporary damage to Opehlia. As for battle capabilities alone, Ophelia looks better. But we know its the overall abilities that wins you a battle.
i think u make a big mistake here, Irene is one of the most powerfull Claymores we have seen so far, most of the Claymores dont have a chance against her quick sword, only Teresa, the other one that killed teresa ( i remembered Priscilla ) and Rafaela could have survived a battle against Irene( we are not sure about this Irene said propably, Rafaela would have been injured), even Clare was told that her quick sword is 10% of irene's so its not a good example
thats what i would like to talk about: clare ( no quick sword) and propably any other Claymore except monsters ( like teresa etc. ) dont have a chance against Ophelia's ability.
i would say Claymore Ophelia >> Claymore Galatea
AB Ophelia <<< Claymore Galatea as we could see against Clare, Ophelia lost her mind, and special yoki manipulating tech could work well against her
this doesnt really matter the fight would have been finished or nearly finished after first few blows, Ophelia has a secret tech that is not known by anyone, the first cut would disable Galatea,also the battle against Clare is not a good example, think folks at first she was playing with Clare and the boy ( then i think she really lost against the AB, however she ended up winning) then she lost against Irene, it could have been Teresa, Ophelia didnt have a chanse anyway, then she awakened and let upgreaded Clare kill her ) we know for sure Ophelia knew she is one of the most powerfull Claymores she didnt give a shit, she had to kill a claymore or 5 or humans, no problemo job done, she lost against a hero lost warrior from a previous era, Galatea was #3 thx to her sensing abilitiesQuote:
Last edited by killy-.-; November 27, 2010 at 02:37 PM.
All I'm saying is: if you exclude all special cases, Galatea would be the stronger. That's all I'm saying. And if you read my first post, you'll see that I don't think Galatea much stronger than Ophelia, but she would win, because in the end, she is a bit stronger.
And their digits speaks for itself, excluding the special cases.
Moderator message by: HegemonKhanthis matter is closed/settled, don't bring it up or even hint at it
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 27, 2010 at 08:01 PM.
ther are equal. it supposed to be Noel vs Galatea or something like that ... or Rafaela ..
Sofia vs Rafaela, Noel vs Ricardo,there cannot be two #3 thats why one of them is 3 and the other one 4, they are not sure about it and want to figh each other and prove it
Last edited by killy-.-; November 27, 2010 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
it didnt help at all, Clare could have done the same thing, as someone said maybe her multuplaier is a bit bigger than others, it didnt let her kill Dauf after all,Quote:
opehlia and stress ? where have u seen this? she awekened b/c she was dying, many other Claymores have done it as well, and forget what u have seen after her awekening she became another person, they are both strong and fast, Galatea has her special ability and Ophelia has hers, there is no Claymore except Teresa who could have win against Quick Sword thats why she lost, also there is no Claymore who could have win against Rippling sword except quick sword users and teresaQuote:
Galatea's mind reading ability is useless vs Ophelia at the same time she cannot fight hand to hand against Ophelia's Rippling Sword, and as i said Ophelia was playing with Clare, vs Galatea she wouldnt take her time and she would make sure the first strike is lost arm or deep wound
Last edited by killy-.-; November 27, 2010 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
welcome to this site and the Claymore forum, killy!
that's certainly a possibility, and I never thought of that! good point!
Noel and Sophia can indeed be tied/equal to each other, but since they can't both have the same rank, one has to be a higher rank and the other a lower rank (I argue this is the same for the sisters: Alicia+Beth = rank 1, Rafaela+Luciela = rank 1, trainee Awakening Twins = rank ?).
however, you got to chose one, hehe, so try your best to decide which would win, there's no draws in this tournament, it's a CLAYMORE tournament after all, it's hardcore fighting to the death! One will win and live, and one will lose and die! "There's no ties/draws in Claymore". muhahaha!
(well, there can be voting ties/draws results, but no ties/draws in the Fights themselves, you got to chose a winner, so think hard and make a touch choice as best as you can, hehe)
so who you think would win and how/why so?
Total Votes: 16
Sophia: 7 votes = 43.75%
Noel: 9 votes = 56.25%
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 27, 2010 at 08:53 PM.
Total Votes: 19
Galatea: 17 = 89.47%
Ophelia: 2 = 10.53%
Total Votes: 24
Dauf: 13 votes = 54.17%
Irene: 11 votes = 45.83%
Dauf vs. Irene
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Dauf
Dauf is an Awakened rank 3 from Isley's Era of male Claymores. He, Rigardo, and Isley were in competition with each other back then. After getting beaten, Rigardo would join Isley, but Dauf decided to join Riful instead. Dauf and Riful deeply loved each other.
Dauf is first introduced in the Witches Maw chapters, torturing Jean and Katea, to get them to Awaken for Riful to be her own army against Isley's army of 30 ABs. He's not the most intelligent, but he's powerful, both offensively with his strength and his rods, and defensively with his extremely hard Awakened body. Clare's Quick Sword wasn't able to slice him though it did keep him repelled or held from attacking. Clare was only able to pierce Dauf's hand with her sword. Galatea's attacks also could only pierce Dauf's hands. However, when Galatea released her yoki, she could slice off his hand and his cheek. But, this was a far cry from being able to kill Dauf. Clare, due to her unique Yoki Sensing ability faired better against Dauf then Galatea did, as Galatea couldn't defend as well as Clare, despite her great swordsmanship. Also, yoki releasing Clare had the strength to stop Dauf's rod and push it back at him with enough force to knock him over. Still, though Dauf couldn't be beaten by them, due to his hard body. This is why Galatea sent Clare to get Jean, as Jean's Drill Sword was devastatingly destructively powerful, and it indeed could kill Dauf. In fact, Dauf was about to be killed by Jean (with the help of mainly Clare and slightly by Galatea), if Riful had not saved him. So, while Dauf would remain alive for a long time, he's not as powerful as it makes him seem to be. Dauf does have great power offensively with his strength and his powerful and fast shot rods, but his main attribute is his hard body, that has kept him alive for nearly up to the current chapter.
Dauf+Riful would battle the 12 ABs of the 23 AB that survived the Pieta Battle, and then rush south to try to get to Luciela first and ally up against Isley, but they were too late. Isley and Luciela had already battled. Luciela had run away and would get killed by and merged with Rafaela. Isley was exhausted, out of yoki, and fatally vulnerable, however Priscilla would rush by his side, before Riful could arrive and kill Isley helplessly. With Priscilla next to isley, guarding/protecting him, Riful had no choice but to walk away in anguish. Riful did not like the idea of a female, Priscilla, being more powerful then her, when let alone a male, Isley, was already insulting enough for her high pride!
After Riful encounters Audrey, Rachel, the two unknown Claymores, and the 4 HAs, ending with failure in getting Clare's cooperation, Dauf would join and help Riful in capturing the fast Renee, and then would torture Renee back at Riful's forest castle near Gonal town ruins. He'd encounter Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma outside and battle them. He grabs Yuma's leg, but Clare cuts off Yuma's foot, as she still can't cut Dauf's hard body (well, she was still suppressing her yoki and thus no Quick Sword as well, only the Windcutter). Clare though would sneak past Dauf and Riful, who was coming outside to kill Clare, and miss Renee, who was able to escape on her own, and heading out. Dauf would notice Renee, and he and Riful chase/attack after Renee. It is unclear if she successfully escaped or if she was killed by Riful. However, we've yet to see Renee, so maybe she did get struck and killed by Riful's wild ribbons attacking everywhere, as Riful couldn't sense Renee due to the YSP Renee still had secretly hidden on her and used, and Riful lost speedy Renee with her eye sight or gaze.
As Riful+Dauf stare at the emergence of the Destroyer, they are first attacked by the AFs/AEs as they arrive slightly ahead of Alicia+Beth, and damaged as the AFs/AEs have their yokis suppressed as well, making Dauf+Riful have to rely on their eyes against the ~11 AFs/AEs. Alicia+Beth show up shortly a few moments later, and Alicia Awakeneds. Dauf goes to attack/punch Awakened Alicia, and Riful screams lovingly-caringly too late, as Awakened Alicia with her buzz-saw bladed body, is one of the few with power to seriously damage Dauf's hard body. Dauf's arm is obliterated by Awakened Alicia. Riful desparately protects Dauf from being killed by Awakened Alicia, and quick-wittedly notices and understands Beth's role, telling Dauf to attack Beth instead, while she deals with Awakened Alicia.
But, then the Destroyer launches its first volley of huge projectiles. Slow moving and non-agile Dauf is helpless, as the huge projectiles blow holes through him, with Riful desparately crying-reaching out for Dauf, unable to protect him, getting holes blown through her body as well, and not selflessly caring about herself, but only about her beloved Dauf! One of the huge projectiles nails Beth as well, sending her flying backwards and impaled against a mound or outcropping of earth/rock. This causes Awakened Alicia to have to de-Awaken, and then she strangely attacks some of the AFs/AEs and destroy them. Shortly later, Priscilla is battling Infected Awakened Beth, which causes Alicia to rush over to save Beth. Both would desperately Awaken to save each other, but Priscilla easily kills them. Riful yells at Dauf to get away, though he can't as he's too damaged stuck lying on the ground. Priscilla shows up and kills Riful and rips up Dauf. Enraged, Dauf manages to crawl over to one of the Destroyer projectiles, stabs it into himself and uses it to regenerate himself, grabs his precious beloved Riful's dead (upper half) body, and then he comes after Priscilla as she's chasing Deneve+Helen+Clare. Unfortunately, even Infected Awakened Dauf with his hellcat arms, gets killed easily by Priscilla.
Dauf's combat specs is his great power, offensively and defensively. Offensively, he has great strength and can shoot multiple high speed rods from his body. Defensively, he as a very hard body, which only the (Jean's) Drill Sword and Awakened Alicia's buzz-saw-bladed body could significantly destroy. Yoki released Galatea was able to cut off his hand and cut his cheek. Galatea and yoki released Clare could pierce his hand. Dauf can't regenerate within battle time-frame, but over some amount of time he can regenerate. Dauf himself is not that fast moving or agile.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Irene
Irene is first introduced to us in the Teresa chapters, as the leader of the execution squad for Traitor Teresa's head. Except, she's no longer rank 2 like she was, as Irene yielded it to Priscilla after watching her kill some normal yomas priorly. Irene instantly had known/sensed/realized that Priscilla was more powerful then her. This does not mean that Irene is weak, by no means! Priscilla's just that much of a monster, like Teresa, well not quite, as she and Irene would learn the hard way. Anyways, Irene' is known as "Quick Sword Irene or Irene of the Quick Sword", for her, yep, you guessed it, Quick Sword sword technique. Irene's Quick Sword is quite powerful and extremely fast and sharp. So, much so, not even rank 3 (though now demoted to rank 4) Sophia, rank 4 (though now demoted to rank 5) Noel, nor the normal yomas could even see it. Not only that, but Irene was able to slice all the two normal yomas' flesh, guts, and blood so quickly and finely, not even a drop of blood splattered on Irene's body despite having killed the two normal yomas right above and next to her! Wow!
Only Teresa (and maybe Priscilla too, though we'll never know) was able to not only see Irene's Quick Sword, but parry it so effortlessly as well. Though, there's quite a debate about whether this is due to Teresa's power level/physical skills, and/or her unique Yoki Sensing abilty.
As, we can see, when Irene used her Quick Sword on rank 4 Ophelia, she was no match for it. Even Ophelia's "Rippling Sword", was able to be parried and quite easily too by Irene's Quick Sword. Poor Ophelia couldn't even see Irene's Quick Sword (just like Sophia and Noel), as deep gashes burst out blood all over her body!
Through Clare's effort at learning the Quick Sword, we see/realize just how well Irene can control her yoki and Yoma half inside of her.
We also learn that Clare using her own non-dominant left arm, was only able to muster 1/10 of power with the Quick Sword, compared to Irene's Quick Sword with her dominant right arm. Irene then gives her right arm to Clare, as Clare's just too weak in power, controlling/resisting the full yoki release required into her arm, and the duration for which she can do the Quick Sword, with her non-dominant own left arm.
With Irene's own right arm, Clare achieves 1/2 Quick Sword power, as compared to Irene's Quick Sword. This half power of Irene's Quick Sword, through Clare, was powerful enough to shred Awakened Ophelia's entire huge-long-large snake body into pieces!
However, Clare, wasn't accustomed to Irene's arm and the greater strain on her body in resisting the yoki and Yoma inside. Awakened Ophelia however realizes she has to "pass the torch" of her revenge of Priscilla onto Clare. So, Awakened Ophelia sacrifices her own life in order to help Clare to learn to manage the Quick Sword with Irene's arm, by motivating Clare, which gives Clare the needed boost to resist the yoki and Yoma inside, and the duration to finish slicing Awakened Ophelia into pieces.
In no way, as many people unfortunately believe, did Awakened Ophelia let Clare win. Oh no, Awakened Ophelia merely offered the challenge to Clare. If Clare couldn't even manage to kill Awakened Ophelia with the Quick Sword, she had no chance of having the potential to one day kill Priscilla for herself and Ophelia. So, Awakened Ophelia actually did go all out against Clare! Well, Clare proved that she had the chance of having the potential to kill Priscilla some day, as she successfully killed the Awakened rank 4 Ophelia the Blood-Soaked Warrior!
The point is that if this is the power of Clare's Quick Sword, imagine the power of Irene's Quick Sword, which is double in power! Irene's Quick Sword has double the power needed to completely chop and slice Awakened Ophelia' entire huge-long-large snake body into little itty bitty teeny tiny pieces!
Irene is also an excellent Yoki Sensor and Yoki Suppressor. Irene could sense power levels well, as seen with/on/towards Rafaela, Ophelia, Clare, Priscilla, and Teresa, though Teresa's true power level eluded her sensing. Irene was also an excellent Eye, as she seems (and was the only one capable, well maybe Priscilla could too, but we just don't know this unfortunately) to be the one that tracked down Teresa for the execution squad. We know Irene is an excellent Yoki Suppressor, as not even Awakened Priscilla (whom is a very good yoki sensor), realized that Irene was still alive, faking her death.
Irene is also obviously extremely skilled and experienced in combat, with excellent (normal) swordsmanship (as well as her Quick Sword).
She always stays steadfastly calm and composed (even in the face of Awakened Priscilla, albiet her brief moment of shock/horror).
Also, Irene is very fast, as seen with her rushing over to save Priscilla's head from being removed from her neck by Teresa.
Lastly, this is to be considered seriously. Because Teresa was at rank 1, and then Priscilla (well at rank 2, demoting Irene to rank 3), we have to contemplate whether Irene might have actually been a rank 1, but was merely forced to be a rank 2 and then rank 3, by Teresa and then Priscilla, both of whom were beyond rank 1's themselves. Was Irene rank 1 calibur, but merely was overshadowed by monsters Teresa and Priscilla, and thus placed at rank 2 and then rank 3, merely because rank 1 were taken by them?
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 02, 2010 at 01:53 AM.
Total Votes: 25
Rigardo: 19 = 76.00%
Agatha: 6 = 24.00%
Rigardo vs. Agatha
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Rigardo
Rigardo is a male Awakened from Isley's Era. He's a rank 2 and known for his bloodlust and battle-lust, earning him the title, Rigardo the Silver-Eyed Lion King. He had fought in competition with Isley and Dauf back in the past. But, after having a duel/fight against Isley, and losing to him, Rigardo has been serving Isley faithfully ever since.
We first see Rigardo in the the Pieta battle, where he dies to Partially Awakened Clare. We'll only see him again in the flashback special-extra chapter of Isley and Rigardo encountering Priscilla. Nakedly, she has just devoured four towns in Alphonse, "Isley's Alphonse", which was unacceptible behavior even for Awakeneds. So, Isley sent Rigardo to "teach" this new and naked Awakened proper Awakened behavior. However, Isley only realizes/senses too late, that this new and naked female Awakened was actually too powerful for even Rigardo. So, poor Rigardo gets pwned by Priscilla, though she had to use her Awakened body/form against him! Isley would immediately go to his Awakened body too, but even he himself actually gets pwned by Priscilla as well.
Rigardo's combat specs. He is possibly the only AB that is either powerful enough to never (except against Priscilla, Isley, and Partially Awakened Clare) having to use 10-100% yoki (which changes his eyes to golden) as he keeps his silver eyes or that he can keep his eyes silver even at 10-100% yoki release (I'm too lazy to go look up which it is). He's extremely powerful, maybe even the most powerful AB. He has massive strength as seen in him being able to slice Flora's body in half just from his finger and in his lifting that stone column to throw at Partially Awakened Clare (or was this just in the anime? Can't remember and too lazy to look). All the other ABs obeyed him as they feared him because he was more powerful then all of them.
Also, Rigardo has incredible speed (which meant he remained relatively small, compared to other Awakeneds, like Priscilla as well remained relatively small too). Only Isley, Priscilla, and Partially Awakened Clare were faster then him (that we know of). Even Phantom Miria, at best could just barely keep up with him, though due to a difference in power levels and/or yoki amounts, Miria couldn't maintain her Phantom Steps for very long, whereas Rigardo's speed was entirely natural and so he could keep at his speed indefinately.
Rigardo's Awakened body was also harder then normal, and the Claymores could not cut him with normal attacks, as seen with him even using his arm to parry Clare's (and maybe other Claymores') sword(s). It wasn't just his fingernails/claws, he was using to parry with. Only Partially Awakened Clare had the power (strength, ...and speed too, hehe) to cut and thus kill Rigardo.
Rigardo attacks either directly with his arms'/hands' sharp fingernails/claws (Veronica, Undine, and Flora are sliced in half and Jean is pierced through the stomach by his open palm punch/jab), his hands' raw brute strength (as seen in him ripping off Undine's arms) or with his tentacles (impaling Deneve and Miria), which are actually just his fingers being extended.
Ultimately, we somewhat know Rigardo's power level, as he's weaker than (first seen) Partially Awakened Clare. Though, as to how powerful Partially Awakened Clare is, especialy now, we don't know as she has only faced off against Priscilla, but the fight was corrupted due to her strange retraction of her blade arms from seemingly about to kill Priscilla.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned Agatha
Agatha is an Awakened rank 2 female, however the Era she hails from is completely unknown. She's known as Crimson Agatha or Blood Red Agatha, due to her vanity and bloodlust as she is bathing/showering in blood (google: Elizabeth Bathory), as seen when she reveals herself in Rabona and starts killing the humans. She's first and only introduced to us in the Rabona Battle with herself vs the Humans, Claymores, and Ghosts. Due to Miata still engaging Galatea, Agatha was able to defeat both of them. But, then the Ghosts show up, and Clare will ultimately be the one whom kills Agatha.
Agatha's combat specs. First is her Awakened body. It has two forms, her giant spider pod like body and her tentacle-mummy like body. Both of these two forms of her Awakened body merely envelop her real-true human-appearing body with her vital organs, which can move around inside it, as like a shell or exoskeleton. We see the same thing with Awakened Ophelia, Riful, the Destroyer, and I think one more I'm forgetting at the moment, or maybe I'm not. Also, Agatha can use her Awakened body to create a fake human-apearing body like Riful also can.
Second, are Agatha's tentacles and maybe she has javelin-like (thrown-shot) tentacles-attacks too (but I'm not sure, and too lazy to go back and look). These don't seem too powerful or too fast, as even Clarice could dodge them (unless Clarice is actually more powerful then she lets on, though probably this is unlikely), and the humans are able to block their with their shields. However, Agatha does seem to catch Galatea slicing off her arm (unless this was Miata's doing with her sword. I still can't tell which/whom, lol) with them, though Galatea also was fending off Miata at same time.
Third is her mysterious special attack, that she uses on Miata, gradually increasing its power/damage to her, so she (and Galatea and Clarice) don't realize it until it's too late, with poor Miata's body literally falling/tearing/ripping apart on her. I've speculated that the rainfall during this battle, might actually have been this special attack by Agatha, but it is only my own speculation at best.
Galatea says that she herself could not defeat Agatha, and also (I think) she says that she+Miata might have a 50 50 chance of defeating Agatha (if Miata had allied up with Galatea). Unfortunately, this battle is corrupted, as it's Galatea+Humans vs Agatha+Miata (+Clarice), then a nearly falling Miata+Galatea+Clarice+Humans vs Agatha, and then Agatha vs the 7 Ghosts. So, it's really impossible to judge this battle accurately, both Agatha's power level and the Claymores'/Ghosts' power levels as well.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 02, 2010 at 01:58 AM.
I think Agatha has the advantage because she can hide her self with in her outer shell. She probably a mid range attacker too so this would give Rigardo a lot of disadvantage.
The only advantage to Rigardo is speed and strenght. But his speed can be counter a lot with Agatha mid range attacks. Getting hurt before you get to your target is bad news. Even so, he will not hurt Agatha because he can't sense her weak spot.
Rigardo might have wrecked all the old Ghost, but the new Ghost would have given him hell.
Agatha took on the new Ghost and did quite well. Considering, Claire being almost as powerful as Teresa. Claire able to control her Yoki sensing (Teresa Technique) and having (Elena/Irene's Quicksword Technique and arm too). Miria who's can go toe to toe with Claire. Just look at 109 when Miria took out all those Claymore and left them wounded with out a sweat. Remind me of Teresa owning Elena and the others.
My vote is on Agatha.
I'm voting for Dauf. He looks like he has the upper hand.
Quicksword has a flaw against hard body. The Quicksword is ment to attack at Precise location with Speed and Accuracy. The downfall is that it can't cut hard armor. The only 5 known claymore to do so is the twins, Jean (Original Drill sword), Claire in half awaken with her diamond arm, Helen (Copy of Jean Drill sword), and Ophilea's Rippling sword.
Ophilea had a problem with the Quicksword because her Rippling sword is ment as a saw motion and in terms of speed, it loss out when they were fighting. Ophilea doesn't have a hard armor to stop the quicksword. That's why she got cut up before she even tried swing her sword to fight Elena. Ophilea would probably be a better match for Dauf, but not Elena.
All in All, Dauf just has Elena number.
no matter what u say, rigardo lost against one of the most powerfull AB we have seen so far Clare, she had to awaken 4 limbs to kill him, Agatha doesnt have Dauf's armor nor super speed, more than that she is slow, all Rigardo has to to is chop bit by bit in the same way as ghosts did killing her real body in the end, he could defend against clare's one awakened arm+sword and 2 legs so he is incredible fast ( he had only 1 arm at that time ), i dont really remember his fight against isley ( i cannot find it) but i think he injured him pretty bad, i think that Rigardo would be the winner