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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Wow this is crazy speculation. Raftela may not be overly strong but to be able to have the ability that she has would involve her having decent yoki control herself which means she's at least twice as strong, fast, etc than Clarice if they both unleash yoki. How does Clarice not get curbstomped again?
I take Rank to mean something especially in the same generation of Claymores. Deitrich 8 beats Nina 9(?) Nine times out of Ten.
Tough fight to be very honest but on average Helen seems to be in trouble a lot more often than Deneve does. I'd say Helen throws a drill sword at Deneve. Deneve moves enough to let it take off her arm/shoulder and then she keeps moving towards Helen while regenerating. Grabs Helen's outstretched arm and attacks her with her other sword.
Regeneration is amazing in the Claymore world and unless you can read your opponents every move or maybe control their yoki flow there really is nothing that can beat it.
That Drill Sword of Helen's can, with being just a little more close to Deneve, and instead of taking out just Deneve's arm, Deneve's entire body is sliced away, well beyond what Deneve's Regeneration can restore, lol.
Also, don't forget that Helen does NOT have to extend her arm, she can fight melee with Deneve with her Drill Sword whirling around, making it hard for Deneve to do anything to Helen with her "copter/rotary shield+weapon" Drill Sword.
I do think Deneve is superior, and Helen is indeed very vulnerable and poor at defense, but at the same time, Helen is extremely deadly/fatal with her extendable Drill Sword. Personally, I could see Helen being killed by Deneve, as she kills Deneve too, lol. I can see them both dying... though that's not a voting choice... doh!
Priscilla's and expecially the AFs'/AEs' regeneration is near godly, but Deneve's is not quite at this level of Regeneration of Priscilla's and the AFs'AE's. She doesn't have the yoki amount or yoma power (power level) that they do
I totally forgot one last thing to consider for this battle... doh!
Deneve and Helen know each other really well! So, this is going to make their fight that much more interesting!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 03:17 AM.
They are only a rank apart, so no consideration of Nina's Shadow Chaser/Hunter, or you don't consider it a consideration? If so, then why?
why do all of you who voted for Dietrich, think she can win?
They're only a rank apart, so their combat/swordsmanship skills and physical abilities (strength, speed, agility, reaction time, and etc) should be nearly the same. Also, ranks 6-9 are all pretty much equal in power levels. But, there's one difference, and it's in Nina's favor, her Shadow Chaser/Hunter.
could some one help me? I actually don't know (and am too lazy to look, lol) if Nina can still attack while her Shadow Chaser/Hunter is seeking target, or if she can't like Jean's and Helen's Drill Sword leaves them unable to attack and open/vulnerable when they are winding/twisting up their arm for it?
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 02:36 AM.
Usually I would take rank to mean nothing when I consider different generations but in the same one the organization tends to do a good job with who is stronger combat wise than the next. It's been proven in the past generations (Teresa, Priscilla) and in the new ones (Alicia, Galatea, Miria). Obviously against AB's different techniques and fighting styles may effect how those fights go but with Claymores themselves its pretty fair power scaling. With the exception of 10 apparently most Claymores (in the same generation) are placed in accordance with their efficiency.
HegemonKhan is right, Raftela could be defeated by the weakest Claymore for all we know.
Of course it could also mean that she could be stronger than Priscilla and still have #10 but I think it's safe to assume that usually they're not #1 material and they're not good fighters (since all they do is polishing their special skill and staying at HQ at all times, preventing them from gaining experience). So if I were to choose solely on their potential I would say that Clarice would have better chances of winning. However, in this case, at this point, I think that Clarice would panic and become another victim of mind f**ker. But that's just guessing, for now we know too little to say how it would work out. We haven't seen either of them show what they're really made of.Quote:
I completely agree with HegemonKhan. Let's be honest. The warriors that Yuma defeated were small fries. And 2 of them were knocked out this easily because it was a surprise attack. As for #14, for all we know she could be as good #14 as Audrey is #3 (and I believe that Audrey is nowhere near Galatea's level). It's still impressive she rendered them unconscious with one blow but they were no-names that would be defeated easily by Undine also.
Let's go back in time. Pieta battle, after first encounter with AB only Yuma was injured in Miria's group. #20 and #31 weren't even scratched. But that's not all, she was also the most heavily wounded warrior and at best wasn't a handicap to other warriors. In short she was many leagues below Undine (who was one of the few that could fight turtle AB's manipulation with relative success). After 7 years of intense training Yuma certainly gained skills and got stronger. So if current Yuma fought Undine from 7 years ago it would be a close fight but still with Undine having the advantage. For example, she wouldn't be knocked out that easily because of her muscles that would be like an armor. Plus her having two swords and using them efficiently would allow her to gain advantage even if she wasn't as quick as Yuma. And if Undine had 7 years of training the gap between them would probably be as big as it was in Pieta. And her being able to throw a sword doesn't change a thing.
Last edited by Goral; November 24, 2010 at 10:38 AM.
Eh, you're making a problem where there isn't one Ryus. It's just a game, it doesn't have to make sense and the fights don't have to be probable. We're assuming here they would fight and that's it. But if you really need a reason for them to fight you can imagine that Raftela mind f**ks both of them making them think they're fighting someone else (Riguald/Rubel/some Claymore they would think killed Miria). In fact we may see sth like this in coming chapters ;P.
Or they could fight over a guy (Raki/Galk/Cid) or Helen can become schizofrenic.
As for the fight, easy choice for me. Deneve wins it since she was much stronger than Helen from the start (#15 compared to Helen being #22). She has also awakened more times and now can instantly regenerate. She is stronger and at least as fast as Helen plus she has more stamina (just look at their fight with hellcats) and the only advantage Helen has - more powerful attack - is nullified by her regeneration ability, two-sword technique and sheer power.
Last edited by Goral; November 24, 2010 at 12:22 PM.
No... it was hinted at at least 3 times in the manga that the current gen was ranked correctly/accurately. Most clearly by Rubel stating it wasn't the current gen #3 and #5 weren't weak (aka below par) but Miria being that strong. Also by Miria in chapter 66 when she comments that Clarice isn't a sign that the org is weak but just didn't care about the north. In ch 68 Miria again comments that things don't seem to have changed much troop wise when Tabitha sense for single digit warriors. In chapter 69 Riful isn't taken aback by Audrey's or Rachel's power vs there rank either, so it's safe to say they are worthy of there ranks... it's just that Teresa and Clare's gens had some power houses in the top spots.
So it stands to reason #14 of Clarice's gen was as strong as Cynthia was during Pieta. The real question it the gap between #14 and #11 but to be able to defeat a #14 with no effort while her yoki was suppressed says that if she went all out vs a #11, even Undine, she'd be stronger than her even without pumping up her muscles (like Teresa matching Irene's quicksword). To top it off she'd also be faster, better trained, has some yoki wave length matching skills (implying at least some ability in sensing), and unlike Undine can heal if she puts her mind to it. This match imho is hands down Yuma's fight to lose, which she could do if she starts doubting her ability to win or something else stupid like that but she has all the advantages. Yuma is very strong and her sword throw without yoki is proof of that... she may not beef up her strength with yoki like Undine but the at worst she has the same base strength without yoki and she has more yoki. Yuma was clearly fighting on par with a single digit and thus trumps a #11 any day and twice a day in any fight in the north due to 7 years of training in blizzard conditions
That said if Undine did survive and did get 7 years worth of training too, of course she'd rape Yuma but that is not the scenario put forth.
Imho I agree that Galatea was above par for a #3 due to having Beth taking the #2 spot... so like Irene just had 2 monsters above her and got stuck with the next rank down. That said she isn't #1 material but a solid #2. To clarify I do think Audrey is a worthy #3 though, just not on Galatea's level but Sophia's or Noel's and maybe just shy of Ophelia (psycho chick always beat coward of about equal strength ).
Last edited by Ryus; November 24, 2010 at 12:29 PM.
What Rubel said only shows that Miria has become much stronger, it doesn't automatically prove that current generation is as strong as previous one. In fact we clearly see that current generation is weaker. Galatea, Ophelia and especially Raphaela were (and Galatea still is) stronger than Audrey. I would bet that Flora would also beat current #8 or Miria would beat Renee or Jean would beat Nina (or Clare would beat Clarice which is rather obvious ;P). The only warriors that didn't weaken were Alicia and Beth (in fact they've gotten stronger) but all in all this generation appears to be weaker than previous one.
If we looked at Audrey we would only see her failures. With Riful she pissed herself (literally) and with Miria (who was nowhere near Riful's level) she did the same thing.
In chapter 85 Deneve implies that MiB might be lacking manpower and IMO that encounter, the one in the North (were Nina and others were rescued), Riful's encounter and Miria's, all suggest that they were more focused on making AFs and better soul-linked warriors than regular warriors.
Last edited by Goral; November 24, 2010 at 01:41 PM.
As for Deneve your right, she likely does have more stamina long term wise... however it's very likely Helen was using her drill sword attack no stop vs the Hellcats but it's unclear if Deneve was losing limbs all the time and healing non stop through out the fight. So it could be just that Helen was more exhausted due to this or maybe not... it was a half a day battle and all we saw was the end result after all, so who's to say why Helen was more tired it could be a power gap or this was just because Helen was just using techniques that fatigued her more and Deneve didn't get that injured and needed to constantly heal. Next off as tired as she was she kept going after a quick breather...
The end result is we still don't know enough to clearly cast a winner even if we ignore the astronomical odds of them battling to the death. Next off it's not been even hinted at that going over your limit multiple times makes one stronger... so true Deneve's done it more but it doesn't correlate with added power if so I'm sure Clare or Deneve (or maybe even Miria) would have spotted it and noticed this short cut to even more power. All it did was unlock there ability to quickly grow in power and it seems to be a one time deal... I'm sorry but the logic of once is awesome 20 times must be better isn't good logic without supporting facts.
Next off two sword aren't better than one... they're just a different style (in fact sometimes limiting since the swords will interfere with one another). So using two swords doesn't prove Deneve is stronger (yoki wise) just that she prefers twice the chop... lets face it Helen uses her sword one handed just like Deneve all the time even when not using limb extension or drill sword (hell, it's been ages since I saw her use it two handed).
Finally with rank you have a point Deneve was stronger to begin with but it doesn't prove that that gap still holds true after 7 years of intense training... lets face it Helen and Deneve where likely sparring partners and therefore would now be about as strong as each other. Next off Just how stressful was Helen's training in order to learn how to use drill sword and limb extension without yoki, after Clare and Miria she likely was the one to work the hardest to achieve her new found ability therefore closing the gap to at least some degree, so to speak. Lets face it using two swords at once more requires retraining than physically changing one's body.
Since Claymore doesn't dwell much on location of a fight changing the outcome this battle would come down to willingness to go all out... which was my point in the first place.
Last edited by Ryus; November 24, 2010 at 01:12 PM.
Certainly Dietrich. The No. 8 has great stamina, strength, great skill in fighting, she gave a lot of trouble to the goddess of beauty – Galasexy – when she pursued her, she stood firm and strong in a fight with an AB, survived the battle between EA and hellcats and won the day at the end.
And I still believe she is only rank 8 because she has been lowered after failing in the mission to capture Galatea, yes, Dietrich gets my vote.
Uhm, this one looks easy, but I think it's tough. Helen is skilled, fast and can attack from distance, which could give her great advantage. However, I believe Deneve is faster, stronger, smarter and more strategist than her friend.
Her almost instant regeneration ability is her greatest asset, and she can fight with two swords, Deneve mixes defensive and offensive style in a very good way. So I think Deneve would be the winner, and so she gets my vote.
Galatea was #3 due to Beth being #2... her stats in the databook are on par with Irene a demoted #2 and well above Sophia's the demoted #3.
Raphaela was a demoted #2 tied in power with a number #1 so why even mention her? You know as well as I that is just a bad example.
As to Ophelia nothing proves that she is stronger than Audrey... so why go calling it a fact. You gotta prove your claims or admit that it's just your take on the matter. Irene raped Ophelia and just below her in ability was Sophia, sure Ophelia would probably beat Sophia but sword technique would be a factor here since Sophia has no technique. Who's to say the gentle sword can't give Audrey a chance against Ophelia with the ripping sword? Fact is there's just too many unknowns to say with certainty Ophelia is clearly better than Audrey and even if she is nothing disproves that it wasn't Clare's generation being stronger than previous generations. Your claims are stronger than the facts you have backing them, recall Clare's gen was preparing for an all out war when other gens where solely lab rats in no need of extra training. Now look I agree Audrey would likely lose to any of those you mentioned but none the less that doesn't prove she isn't a solid #3... we have only 2 skewed generations to compare her too and there where 70 plus other generations with untold #3's in each. Or maybe... she's only #3 since Mitia was too unstable maybe she was made #4 until she became more stable, thus making the #4 by default #3 since they needed someone to take on the duties of #3 but we have no facts to support such a claim and calling a whole generation weak that's been hinted at not being such is just foolhardy.
As to Renee vs Old Miria... I'd call that one close but side with Renee. Miria has the phantom move sure but it's a limited technique back then and Renee was fast too and being an eye likely had yoki precognition and therefore could defend against any attack Miria threw at her and then defeat her once she tired out. Miria would have to be very cleaver and lucky to win that fight.
As to Dietrich vs Flora I'd side with Flora but only due to Flora's sword technique. Stat wise I feel Dietrich is superior (can you see Flora keeping up with Deneve and Helen and then fight amongst Hellcats and AFs and survived...)
As to Jean vs Nina, I'd side with Nina. As odd as that sounds Jean showed no swordsmanship beyond drill sword and Nina could use shadow chaser long before Jean could rotate her arm enough to use drill sword.
I just reread what Rubel said and I stand by my earlier statement... he stated Miria had grown vastly stronger and that was to sole reason for #3 and #5's defeat in reply to a MiB stating this gen was weak and therefore any mention of this gen being weak was inaccurate. It was Yagi's way of telling us this gens warriors are just as strong as any normal generation but the ghosts had just gotten WAY stronger.
Last edited by Ryus; November 24, 2010 at 01:54 PM.