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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
Getting back on topic, I wouldn't put my money on either one. It would be quite interesting fight. Plot wise Dee should have better chances of winning. Contrary to Dee, Nina with her wing guards almost killed a strong AB (in Pieta there were only above average ABs AFAWK, and the one Nina was fighting was way faster than most ABs) and if not for the other two ABs they would surely defeat them. After this fight "overall power" of teams hunting down ABs was supposed to increase and yet Dee couldn't defeat her AB. So unless it was much stronger AB than the one Nina fought Dee would lose to Nina. Although judging by the difficulties Helen had it is possible, plus Dee was fast enough to dodge Helen's and Deneve's simultaneous attack and to get behind Helen and help her.
I tossed a coin here and Nina won (seriously).
Agree with HK and Goral... Clarice would lose unless Raftela is far weaker than we assumed (which she very well could be)... Sure maybe Raftela couldn't use her anti warrior technique if Clarice yoki disappeared again but she'd beat her in moments in a sword fight, even if not as strong as a #10 and if she was as weak as a #40 (or for all we know she's a #1). The best Clarice could ever hope to do is catch her off guard like she almost did with Agatha and that could only work once.
Voting for Raftela since I think the odds of Raftela being that weak are very slim.
Last edited by Ryus; November 24, 2010 at 05:41 PM.
In chapter 85 Deneve implies that MiB might be lacking manpower and IMO that encounter, the one in the North (were Nina and others were rescued), Riful's encounter and Miria's, all suggest that they were more focused on making AFs and better soul-linked warriors than regular warriors.
As for my examples, it's still a valid argument. Warriors #3-5 were stronger than Audrey and it doesn't matter that Raphaela was special. It only shows that this generation was stronger than current one and that was my point.
As for Ophelia - many things prove she was stronger than Audrey. Irene was definitely a better warrior than Ophelia but the latter had potential to surpass her. Her combat stats, i.e. youki, strength and agility were at A level, better than Irene's and Galatea's, however she wasn't even #3 with those stats (most probably because she was mentally unstable, similar to Miata's case).
Yeah Galatea fought against Duph and managed to survive - that much and at the same time only that. She couldn't harm him even at 50% youki release state (or even more) after her manipulation skill lost effectiveness. Duph had the same injuries when Clare was heading toward Jean and after she came back, he didn't even make a sweat (at least from what I saw Galatea didn't impress him).
On the other hand Ophelia fought single digit AB at 30% of her strength - that's a big difference (especially if you take into account how much stronger Galatea would become after releasing youki, suggesting that if she didn't do it at the start of her fight with Ophelia she would more likely loose).
As for Irene vs. Ophelia, Galatea wouldn't stand a chance against her either. She would even have lesser chance than Ophelia because she wasn't as agile as her and probably wouldn't even survive Irene's attack (the fact alone she survived such attack even though she was an offensive warrior tells us what a monster she was). In Ophelia vs Galatea fight my money would be on Ophelia too. She was crazy but wasn't stupid and manipulation trick would be probably useless against her, especially if she used the rippling sword.
Duff couldn't move much and Galatea managed only to make shallow cuts on him (and only on specific, non-armored places). Sure she didn't have that much space to dodge but it was enough for someone of her size to do it. Galatea at the time she fought with Duph had only manipulation skill, without it and without releasing youki she couldn't dodge his attacks and Dauph could only aim by twisting his neck. If it was in opened space it would be much more difficult to fight him.
In Ophelia vs AB from Gonahl fight we don't know anything about this AB, beside she was really powerful (definitely former single digit). Clare needed only a glimpse of her strength to know she doesn't stand a chance, after training with Irene she didn't budge when fighting Duph.
Although he was big, he wasn't slow compared to Claymores and his burping had enormous speed. We saw that even though Galatea knew he was aiming at her she didn't manage to dodge because she was too slow and as I wrote above he aimed only by twisting his neck. By moving his entire body it would be more difficult for Galatea to handle the situation.
Possibility of getting behind him wouldn't increase Galatea's chances since she wouldn't be able to cut through his armor (she got behind him at least once and it didn't make much difference). Not to mention if she got behind him Dauph would have serious problem to turn his body.
Ophelia is the one being underestimated, sure AB managed to twist her neck but her strength was substantial. How many claymores would have still their heads on their necks if sth like that happened to them ? If someone is of superior strength than even "delicate" move like that could be deadly, meaning Ophelia was really strong and tough.
So unless you would like to change your opinion and say that Galatea was roughly equal (or weaker) to Audrey, Ophelia being stronger than Audrey is a fact. Your argument that Ophelia wasby Irene is no argument since the same would happen to Galatea (especially if she foolishly attacked cloaked Irene, she wouldn't even see Irene's attack coming and even if she did she wouldn't be fast enough to react since she couldn't even dodge Duff's pole).Moderator message by: HegemonKhanpwned
As for Renee vs. Miria, be honest Ryus. Miria could escape Riful's attack from point blank range (not to mention she could sit on her head instantly without her doing anything) using her slower version of her phantom, whereas Renee couldn't do a thing against Riful even though as an eye she should have sensed her coming with enough lead/advance/anticipation (don't know how to say it in English :P). Sorry but your "precognition" argument goes out the window. I don't even know how did you come up with it in the first place. There is no indication Galatea has "precognition" ability, not to mention Renee. AFAWK only Clare and Teresa had such ability.
As for Dee vs. Flora, read my post in Nina vs. Dee thread. If not for her dodging Helen's and Deneve's attacks I would say she came out rather bad in her encounter against AB, worse than Nina. And yes, I can see Flora dodging Helen's and Deneve's attacks or at least blocking them. She was the fastest "sword-drawer" after all.
Plus Miria said to Clare that she "shouldn't be outdone even by high ranking single digit warriors". But she was talking about Clare, not Helen and Deneve and they surely were weaker than Clare. And judging by their performance against Dee they were only slightly above her but had their partial-awakening skills that gave them the edge.
And about fighting among hellcats and AFs, for all we know she was only a bystander waiting for both sides kill each other. I don't see a reason why Flora would make any worse than her if she knew what Dee knew. In addition her WC technique would protect her from getting a parasite.
As to Jean vs. Nina - Jean held the longest against Riguald and still managed to protect her body from instant death, i.e. she performed better than Flora. Nina had problems with keeping up with "way faster than average AB" and needed help for her attack to succeed. To me the obvious winner would be Jean.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 26, 2010 at 02:57 AM.
Sorry not much time to reply... getting ready for Thanksgiving tomorrow (huge American Holiday... expect slow day tomorrow on any English forum). I was referring to Miria during Pieta not 7 years later vs Riful... so, you know, when her power actually was equal to her rank and Renee and thus support your original argument. What does it matter how strong she became later in this debate? Your argument here is nonsensical, are you seriously telling me Miria could avoid Riful during Pieta when she couldn't keep up with Rigardo who was slower than Isley? Next off Riful was looking away from Rachel and towards the passed out low rankers when miria jumped on her... Once again your argument is overstating the facts.
As to Dietrich I just see her as not a good commander by being lead to water... and the timing of the battle implies the org was trying to get every last scrap of AB flesh before Isley fell so they could pump out AFs. I'm not so sure they where short on man power but get didn't care about losses if it meant more AB flesh before Alicia and Beth where sent against Riful. To the org they mattered not Dietrich's team... if they died so what but if they got the org more flesh great! Next off Deneve also implied Die still stood a chance by herself... the comment was directed towards Dietrich's team which Deneve stated as being all being noobs lower than rank 30, so it had nothing to do with Dietrich or her power but her crappy team. She had a bad team which either she couldn't control due to being foolish noobs or was forced into a bad fighting location by the AB and couldn't get the noobs out of the fight. Deneve's comment has no standing with Dietrich's power at rank 8 vs previous rank 8s.
As to Jean you're kinda implying she lasted more than 3 panels... hell, after 1 panel Rigardo went for the opening. Don't see much point in debating this... as a positive for Jean... half the people I know just think Flora froze like also Miria did, she was just overwhelmed at the monster she was fighting. With Nina you're right she had problems with a supposedly fast AB but was always just a step behind... with a team she preformed far better than Jean's team did against that bug AB in the Pieta. Yet, I fully admit that was just my take on the winner and it is debatable who'd win here.
Oh come on... that was my bloody point too or did you miss it? Look your argument seems to run along the lines of Teresa was a #1 and therefore all other number ones are weak and below par. My argument is Teresa was a #1 and since she was so much stronger than other #1's she isn't to be taken into account for averaging out the power of the standard #1. Now I ask, which line of thought is most likely to figure out if a generation was weak or not as a whole? the one that counts the exceptions as the rule or one that tries to take into account the exceptional warriors at each rank and works around them.Quote:
Yes, the top five warriors of Clare's generation where exceptionally strong but if you ignored Teresa and Priscilla of Teresa's generation and Alicia and Beth of Clare's gen... Clare's gen would likely stomp Teresa's gen too and therefore it is Clare's generation being exceptionally strong and not likely Clarice's generation being exceptionally weak. I mean if Clare's gen can
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 26, 2010 at 02:52 AM.
Are we talking Miria as of her assault on the org or up to the start of Pieta? If after Pieta and seven years of training in the north what's the point of this debate? Since everyone know's Miria will dominate Renee...
just a clarification:
I voted for Clarice, though I might have made arguments for and against both of them in my previous posts in repsonding to others' posts, which is what I guess you'd be agreeing with, lol, as it's not my voting choice of Clarice winning against Raftela.
They're of the same generation (therefore likely accurately ranked against one another) and not enough time has past for Rachel to have gained any edge since they where likely ranked... siding with Audrey. Plus sword style wise thesword will likely render the strong sword useless since it's be to easy to knock off balance, allowing Audrey an easy opening on a warrior who clearly is offensive and can't heal well.Moderator message by: HegemonKhangentle
If something happened like Audrey losing a limb or Rachel partially awakening I might change my mind on the mater later... but nothing has transpired to make me think this has happened.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 06:04 PM. Reason: changed genital to gentle
in particular #5, which says:
why would Miria dominate Renee? Aren't they identical? Both have same rank and speed, and possibly both are Eyes.
I presume you feel Miria is more powerful, so why do you think this?
Has Miria actually gotten more powerful or not?
While Miria has her new "Mirage Step" which doesn't require yoki release, Renee seemingly can move fast naturally, no yoki bursts like Miria has to use (at least for her Phantom Step, as we don't know how her new "Mirage Step" works).
why/how would Miria win against Renee?
I voted for Miria, as she has had so such experience, and we've never seen Renee in actual combat yet. Also, being a HA and Ghost I feel does cause an increase in power level and ability, so this obviously favors Miria as well.
Otherwise, Miria and Renee, I feel are very evenly matched.
Personally, I don't think Miria has improved that much though, nor had that much going for her to start with as well. Quite frankly for me, Deneve and Helen have improved so much more so than Miria. Now, I'm sure people will argue about Miria's speed advantage, however there's a bit of a problem. Let's not forget how fast Priscilla was/is, and that Deneve and Helen were at least fast enough that it took Priscilla some time to catch up to them (though Priscilla had interferences.. except she wasn't actually slowed down by much, lol). Not only that, but Deneve and Helen could somewhat react in time to Priscilla too. So, I'm not sure if Miria's speed is "all that" (greater then everyone else) as it once was.
I never became a "Miria fan", never understood the infatuation with her both in beauty and in her combat abilities. She just hasn't impressed me in combat, like most actually have. Yes, Miria had her speed advantage, but does she still have it (or has everyone gotten fast enough that they match her yoki bursts of speed), and besides her speed, what else does she have? Nothing!
(though in terms of battling Renee, it's the same for Renee, as what else does Renee have besides her speed? Nothing!)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 06:21 PM.
I'm actually going to vote for Rachel on this.
Rachel's sword swing is a normal sword swing, so Audrey (with her "Gentle Sword") get's nothing out of it, lol.
However, Rachel's "Strong Sword" causes/creates a separate from its ordinary-normal swing, an air-wave-"blade" to fly outward from it.
So, I'm going to give the advantage to Rachel, as they seemed (of what I can recall) to be equal in combat and swordsmanship competency, despite their rank differences.
All of Audrey's "trump cards/advantage" seems to rest in her "Gentle Sword", however I don't see it as being any use against Rachel and her "Strong Sword". But, Rachel's "Strong Sword", with its air-wave-"blade"-slice through the air, does give advantage to Rachel against Audrey.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 06:28 PM.
Your questioning my question seems to imply your judging Miria as of up to Pieta when she was still an official warrior and likely equal in terms of power... yet if true your first post is mentioning techniques she learned after the time skip I believe you dubbed it "Mirage Step". So she can't have this ability if she is the warrior before the time skip. In short your first post seems to imply after the time skip... unless it's needlessly listing events after Pieta only to confuse posters.
Look if it's Warrior Miria vs Renee... I'm voting Renee since I think she has a slight edge (get to the reasoning in a moment)
... but if it's Ghost Miria vs Renee I'm voting Miria. Since I believe Rubel wasn't lying and Renee was accurately ranked, therefore Miria dominating 2 warriors of higher rank than Renee shows Miria will win this fight in a single move against an even weaker opponent.
Now for Warrior Miria vs Renee... I'd call that one close but will side with Renee because Miria's trump technique back then, the Phantom move, is limiting and Renee has two counters to it which should negate any edge the phantom move would give Miria. First off Renee is fast too maybe even faster than Miria's base speed and since the Phantom move back then didn't allow subtle movements the fight should be close to Clare vs Rigardo but with Miria tiring out like against the male AB and not having further limb awakenings aid her as with Clare. So Renee only has to survive the first phantom step in order to wait out Miria. Now Renee's second edge is that she has yoki sensing and just maybe yoki precognition therefore she should likely avoid Miria's first phantom attack and can defend against subsequent attacks Miria threw at her. In short this fight is the tortoise vs hair but with the tortoise being a horse instead... aka a long distance runner vs sprinter in a fight, so all he long distance runner has to do is survive and victory is all but assured. Miria would have to be very cleaver and lucky to win that fight, she has a shot at winning but the odds favor Renee... Miria's best chance would actually not be using the phantom but relying on swordsmanship which at this point in time we don't know is top notch or not, though likely is... still though if she does this Renee is will likely be fast and be able to sense any attack she plans.
Sorry for not being clear enough!
use Miria (and every character) as of the current chapter (ch 109), though this doesn't mean you can't use stuff from chapters 1-108 as well, lol.
Or in another way of putting it:
consider them at their full-best-top capabilities as "seen" (pic or text) in the manga from chapters 1-109
Last edited by HegemonKhan; November 24, 2010 at 07:00 PM.
Miria, for sure! Renee didn't show much beyond her speed. Her sensing ability isn't surprising and she didn't show any strength or technique that could provide any danger to the Phantom.
Miria is able to defeat virtually the entire squad of the org. without even using youki, she can use her special technique many times, she has great stamina and her skill with handling the sword is frightening, as Galatea “said”. She causes terror without using even 1% of her youki, I can't imagine the havoc she would cause releasing more than 10%.
Only her own emotions and feelings are able to stop her, Miria ftw!
Audrey turned out to be much more strategist, smart and resistant than Rachel. Her ability would also be crucial, as Rachel doesn't seem to concentrate in fights, and so Audrey could use the same technique she used on Riful's tentacles. And finally, her rank is higher, not that this is a decisive matter , but I think for all that the two of them showed until now, Audrey would be the winner, and so she gets my vote.