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View Poll Results: Which Ichigo is stronger?

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14. You may not vote on this poll
  • Vaizard Ichigo

    12 85.71%
  • Soul Society Ichigo

    2 14.29%
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Thread: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Basically this Ichigo:
    Spoiler show

    Versus this one:
    Spoiler show


    This has been discussed a lot on different threads here lately, so I thought I'd make a thread were people can discuss this while staying on-topic.

    Fight takes place in a neutral place like the deserts of Hueco Mundo.
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; December 09, 2010 at 03:53 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jackk's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Vizard Ichigo takes this one obviously.

    There's no way that SS Ichigo with no Mask would be stronger than Bankai + Mask Ichigo. Ichigo's opponents just got stronger later on.

    SS shikai Ichigo used maximum plotkai and resolve AND used his power along with zangetsu by his side to barely manage a draw against Kenpachi. Although really, the first to fall was Ichigo. Also Kenpachi could have beaten him easily earlier in the match had he wanted to and he never even used Kendo etc.

    Byakuya didn't go all out against SS Ichigo like he did against Renji.

    Also, Byakuya did almost beat Ichigo had his hollow not stepped in to save him. (oh look vaizard/hollowfication powers). Byakuya was understimating Ichigo at first, and didn't even use Gokei nor a lot of other things. Ichigo still won in their last clash due to the circumstances, besides... Ichigo just had to win that fight no matter what.

    In short: Vaizard Ichigo > SS Ichigo.

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  4. #3
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    SS Ichigo not Joking around takes his head off. His speed then >>>>>> Orihime >HM Ichigo.

    Granted however if the fight takes too long because he decides to be a bloody moron again, his bones start breaking and he's boned.

  5. #4
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackk View Post
    Vizard Ichigo takes this one obviously.

    There's no way that SS Ichigo with no Mask would be stronger than Bankai + Mask Ichigo. Ichigo's opponents just got stronger later on.

    SS shikai Ichigo used maximum plotkai and resolve AND used his power along with zangetsu by his side to barely manage a draw against Kenpachi. Although really, the first to fall was Ichigo. Also Kenpachi could have beaten him easily earlier in the match had he wanted to and he never even used Kendo etc.

    Byakuya didn't go all out against SS Ichigo like he did against Renji.

    Also, Byakuya did almost beat Ichigo had his hollow not stepped in to save him. (oh look vaizard/hollowfication powers). Byakuya was understimating Ichigo at first, and didn't even use Gokei nor a lot of other things. Ichigo still won in their last clash due to the circumstances, besides... Ichigo just had to win that fight no matter what.

    In short: Vaizard Ichigo > SS Ichigo.
    I completely agree. People always bring up Ichigo's speed against Byakuya; not exactly sure what they're referring to, but if it's all those afterimages he made while circling him I think that was just an overdramitization of Ichigo's speed. This was his first time using bankai and Kubo wanted get the point across that he was fast. Kind of like how the first time he went bankai the transformation was all epic and lasted almost an entire chapter, yet every time since then it has looked nothing like that. Beyond speed though, Vaizard Ichigo has much more power behind his attacks and GT, and he can take a lot more punishment than SS could. I doubt Ichigo would have still been standing after taking 5 of Grimmjow's elbow darts to the back without the mask.
    Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; December 09, 2010 at 04:03 AM.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Let's see:

    SS Ichigo, even when he was in a critical condition, managed to gather enough strength to overpower Kenpachi, force him to use his trump card and defeat him in a head-to-head clash by breaking his sword as admitted by Kenpachi. The same Kenpachi held his own against #5 espada Nnoitra even without kendo which he didn't use against Ichigo but Dordoni (who was extremely weaker than Nnoitra) overpowered shikai Ichigo in his sealed form and things got worse when he released which eventually forced Ichigo to go bankai.

    Likewise, even when he was in a bad condition, Ichigo simply went bankai and moved faster than Byakuya could react. He could have finished him off right there as admitted by Byakuya. The same bankai Ichigo couldn't overpower Grimmjow's sealed form.

    It seems as if using hollow powers has the adverse effect of hindering your shinigami powers. In SS arc, shikai Ichigo was strong, now shikai Ichigo is fodder. You get stronger by using hollow powers but at the same time your shinigami powers lose their effectiveness which makes you weaker. It's as if Ichigo's strength diminished after his hollow took over and the mask (which he can't hold for long durations) only allows him to reach the power he demonstrated in SS arc. He is weaker overall.

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  9. #6
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Let's see:

    SS Ichigo, even when he was in a critical condition, managed to gather enough strength to overpower Kenpachi, force him to use his trump card and defeat him in a head-to-head clash by breaking his sword as admitted by Kenpachi. The same Kenpachi held his own against #5 espada Nnoitra even without kendo which he didn't use against Ichigo but Dordoni (who was extremely weaker than Nnoitra) overpowered shikai Ichigo in his sealed form and things got worse when he released which eventually forced Ichigo to go bankai.

    Likewise, even when he was in a bad condition, Ichigo simply went bankai and moved faster than Byakuya could react. He could have finished him off right there as admitted by Byakuya. The same bankai Ichigo couldn't overpower Grimmjow's sealed form.

    It seems as if using hollow powers has the adverse effect of hindering your shinigami powers. In SS arc, shikai Ichigo was strong, now shikai Ichigo is fodder. You get stronger by using hollow powers but at the same time your shinigami powers lose their effectiveness which makes you weaker. It's as if Ichigo's strength diminished after his hollow took over and the mask (which he can't hold for long durations) only allows him to reach the power he demonstrated in SS arc. He is weaker overall.
    I agree entirely. I too thought of something like this. Vizard Ichgo may have the more raw power, but it's like you said he lost his effectiveness of his shinigami powers. Ichigo's powers fluctuates we all know this, but we have to also take in account that Ichigo was fighting himself also. Mindset wise he just wasn't there.

  10. #7
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Vaizard Ichigo obliterates regular Bankai Ichigo. I'm thoroughly convinced that naysayers "believe" Ichigo got slower only because they're not willing to accept that whoever their favorite character might be, can't contend with current Ichigo (or a character who outpaces current Ichigo) in these arena threads, thus they make up non-existant hinderances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro
    It seems as if using hollow powers has the adverse effect of hindering your shinigami powers. In SS arc, shikai Ichigo was strong, now shikai Ichigo is fodder. You get stronger by using hollow powers but at the same time your shinigami powers lose their effectiveness which makes you weaker. It's as if Ichigo's strength diminished after his hollow took over and the mask (which he can't hold for long durations) only allows him to reach the power he demonstrated in SS arc. He is weaker overall.

    What's this based on? He would have to have fought someone of equal or lesser strength/speed as Byakuya and then done worse than he did against Byakuya for that claim to ring true. And why is it so hard to believe that as the manga goes on, enemies get faster and stronger, giving Ichigo more difficulty throughout? Who has Ichigo fought after he fought Byakuya, that wasn't in fact faster than Byakuya (SS Byakuya)?

    On another note: are we sure that the Gotei haven't increased their own proficiencies since Aizen left, up to the Winter War too? They had prep before the war. I doubt they could improve a much as Ichigo, as fast as Ichigo. But I'm sure they all improved some way or another.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    What's this based on?
    The first two paragraphs of my post explain what this is based on.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Quote:
    And why is it so hard to believe that as the manga goes on, enemies get faster and stronger, giving Ichigo more difficulty throughout?
    Because people he's previously overpowered in lesser forms in a lot of ways are keeping up to a far easier extent than him, even excluding the new abilities they show, Kenpachi being the shining example. He's able to dance with Nnoitra while patched, and was actually keeping up later down the line.

    If you're going to tell me Shikai Ichigo, who overwhelmed Kenpachi in power, could do the same thing, when 100% reiatsu (LOLCLOAK RETCON) Bankai Ichigo couldn't even cut him then clearly somethings wrong.

    Further by attempting to exempt their improvement rate as being as fast as Ichigo, you're removing literally the one way that could possibly be explained. And don't even get me started on shenanigans like Orihime being faster than him or him being gang rushed by a huge mob Rukia destroyed easily. And then do a speed comparison of Grimmjaw and #7 and the ease at which Byakuya was having compared to when he faught Ichigo, etc...

    Way too many discrepancies at this point to say the freaking least, to a numerous enough extent that just saying LOLPLOT doesn't cover all of them. Either Kubo's been literally that bad at consistency (In which case Ichigo's still weaker anyway, only there's no good excuse for it) or there's actually a good excuse for him to have gotten much less impressive, in that focusing on Hollowification screwed him over, a facet that's removed once he focused on his shinigami side again at the end of the arrancar arc. Stupid and asinine as that whole thing was.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    I won't write much. The main point that in Hueco Mundo Ichigo got bust to his Hollow side as Chad also got, but when Ichigo was in SS during SS arc he got bust in his Shinigami powers, so of course inHuman World and in Hueco Mundo he couldn't act so good with his shinigami powers as in SS, but of course Vaizard Ichigo was stronger than just regular Shinigami Ichigo. It's rather logical.

  16. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jackk's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I won't write much. The main point that in Hueco Mundo Ichigo got bust to his Hollow side as Chad also got, but when Ichigo was in SS during SS arc he got bust in his Shinigami powers, so of course inHuman World and in Hueco Mundo he couldn't act so good with his shinigami powers as in SS, but of course Vaizard Ichigo was stronger than just regular Shinigami Ichigo. It's rather logical.
    Where was it stated that Ichigo gets a shinigami power boost while in Soul society?

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  18. #12
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    @Gran Maesro: Yeah, after my question I tell you why you couldn't/shouldn't have come to that conclusion as you don't have a character to measure Ichigo's feats against Byakuya in SS that is weaker or equal to Byakuya. That's like saying Batman got weaker because he was capable of KO'ing The Joker, but couldn't KO Bane. One of them is a lot tougher than the other in a fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Because people he's previously overpowered in lesser forms in a lot of ways are keeping up to a far easier extent than him, even excluding the new abilities they show, Kenpachi being the shining example. He's able to dance with Nnoitra while patched, and was actually keeping up later down the line.

    Ichigo was exhausted and wounded against Noitorra though. He went a hollowfied marathon, ate like, 5 spike torpedoes, and was no longer hollowfied when Noitora was thrashing him. Not to mention Kenpachi while still patched is already above the average captain in pure destructive power (as is Ichigo). I promise you if Kenpachi had already endured the kind of beating Ichigo had, he would'nt have done half as good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Further by attempting to exempt their improvement rate as being as fast as Ichigo, you're removing literally the one way that could possibly be explained. And don't even get me started on shenanigans like Orihime being faster than him or him being gang rushed by a huge mob Rukia destroyed easily. And then do a speed comparison of Grimmjaw and #7 and the ease at which Byakuya was having compared to when he faught Ichigo, etc...
    Not at all. For one, not all of the Espada have to be greater than Byakuya... just the one's Ichigo fought, so defeating No.7 doesn't change much. I mean, Ichigo didn't fight Leroux, he fought the guy that outranked him (meaning there was more than a little difference in power or speed. Leroux had the fastest Sonido supposedly. Doesn't mean he's the fastest Espada). Leroux pushed Byakuya to use a Cicada, which is more than Ichigo did (as he was able to catch that last cut before going Senkei).

    And the Orihime BS was simply that: unexplainable, terribly written BS. That's the most I'm spending on that, lol. Unless you wanna say that Orihime is stronger than unreleased Ulquiorra because she blocked his sword. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c341/18.html This was after he got serious too.

    For Rudobon, he likely made more skeletons than Ichigo could cut down is all. Rukia defeated him by stopping the skeletons from appearing. If she chose to cut them down all day she'd be getting overrun aswell. This Rudobon was released aswell if I remember correctly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Way too many discrepancies at this point to say the freaking least, to a numerous enough extent that just saying LOLPLOT doesn't cover all of them. Either Kubo's been literally that bad at consistency (In which case Ichigo's still weaker anyway, only there's no good excuse for it) or there's actually a good excuse for him to have gotten much less impressive, in that focusing on Hollowification screwed him over, a facet that's removed once he focused on his shinigami side again at the end of the arrancar arc. Stupid and asinine as that whole thing was.
    All I'm getting at is that Ichigo has fought enemies with different fighting styles and greater strength and speed than his older enemies, so his display won't be as impressive. It's true that his power fluctuates, but that's not what's usually said. Usually you guys say "He's just slower than he was against Byakuya", which can't be proven without seeing him fight Byakuya again, or seeing Byakuya fight the same enemies Ichigo fought and outpacing them, or enemies faster than the ones Ichigo has fought in HM and losing in a test of speed.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    @Gran Maesro: Yeah, after my question I tell you why you couldn't/shouldn't have come to that conclusion as you don't have a character to measure Ichigo's feats against Byakuya in SS that is weaker or equal to Byakuya. That's like saying Batman got weaker because he was capable of KO'ing The Joker, but couldn't KO Bane. One of them is a lot tougher than the other in a fight.
    Shikai Ichigo did better against Kenpachi than against Dordoni. Kenpachi can defeat Dordoni even if his hands are tied up. What further evidence do we need? Ichigo (bankai) did better against Byakuya (bankai) than against Grimmjow (sealed), I think Byakuya (bankai) would curbstomp Grimmjow (sealed). Byakuya couldn't handle Ichigo's speed but he handled Zommari just fine but Ichigo didn't seem faster than Grimmjow who was slower than Zommari. We have reference points to compare them and comparison says Ichigo's impressive shinigami powers in SS arc sucked in arrancar arc.

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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo was exhausted and wounded against Noitorra though. He went a hollowfied marathon, ate like, 5 spike torpedoes, and was no longer hollowfied when Noitora was thrashing him. Not to mention Kenpachi while still patched is already above the average captain in pure destructive power (as is Ichigo). I promise you if Kenpachi had already endured the kind of beating Ichigo had, he would'nt have done half as good.
    Being wounded would at best only change his ability to hit, not his cutting power. If his reiatsu is at 100%, his cutting power should not change. You'd have a point if Ichigo could not connect a blow, but that's not the case, he did and it was completely nulled.

    Further Kenpachi endured a WORSE beating than Ichigo by the end of it and still beat him. Granted though that was by pulling Kendo out from his ass, which is virtually the only new thing he had to pull which wasn't used against Ichigo, so it's hardly good for comparison.

    Quote Quote:
    And the Orihime BS was simply that: unexplainable, terribly written BS. That's the most I'm spending on that, lol. Unless you wanna say that Orihime is stronger than unreleased Ulquiorra because she blocked his sword. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c341/18.html This was after he got serious too.
    But consistent BS in line with may other factors that happened recently. Up to and including that.

    Also saying Orhime is stronger than Ulquiorra is not remotely valid. Just because she can block it once (After which it immediately shatters mind), doesn't mean she doesn't get her head ripped off by the second strike. Same with Gin really, just because she could get her shield up in time to block doesn't mean it will not keep on going through right through her head.

    Quote Quote:
    For Rudobon, he likely made more skeletons than Ichigo could cut down is all. Rukia defeated him by stopping the skeletons from appearing. If she chose to cut them down all day she'd be getting overrun aswell. This Rudobon was released aswell if I remember correctly.
    She took on the full sworm that Ichigo, for some reason, couldn't run circles around. This despite flying capabilities in HM. She stopped him from making more yes, but that doesn't change that she still defeated the group Ichigo couldn't trash in an instant with his 'speed'.

    Quote Quote:
    Usually you guys say "He's just slower than he was against Byakuya", which can't be proven without seeing him fight Byakuya again, or seeing Byakuya fight the same enemies Ichigo fought and outpacing them, or enemies faster than the ones Ichigo has fought in HM and losing in a test of speed.
    Grimmjaw >>> Bankai Ichigo in speed, Grimmjaw < #7 by sheer virtue of lacking the ability to create any substantial after images at all, Byakuya's able to keep up with #7 without pulling his bankai, Byakuya's only barely able to keep up with Bankai Ichigo after he started to slow down with said bankai.

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  23. #15
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Being wounded would at best only change his ability to hit, not his cutting power. If his reiatsu is at 100%, his cutting power should not change. You'd have a point if Ichigo could not connect a blow, but that's not the case, he did and it was completely nulled.

    Wounded and exhausted. It's been shown that tapping into one's full potential reiatsu fatigues them, likely from putting strain on the body. And when you're already exhausted and wounded, you can't strain your body too far. So no, he won't be hitting at 100% when tired and wounded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Further Kenpachi endured a WORSE beating than Ichigo by the end of it and still beat him. Granted though that was by pulling Kendo out from his ass, which is virtually the only new thing he had to pull which wasn't used against Ichigo, so it's hardly good for comparison.

    Yet he started the fight fresh. What I said was, if Kenpachi was in the same position as Ichigo, he wouldn't have faired better. Meaning wounded and exhausted. Kenpachi and Nnoitora wore eachother down that fight. If Kenpachi had started pre-worn, he would have lost. Even after Kendo it took another strike to finish him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Also saying Orhime is stronger than Ulquiorra is not remotely valid. Just because she can block it once (After which it immediately shatters mind), doesn't mean she doesn't get her head ripped off by the second strike. Same with Gin really, just because she could get her shield up in time to block doesn't mean it will not keep on going through right through her head.

    If we're using your logic it is. You claim that Orihime is faster than Ichigo for being able to sneak an attack in edgewise while his back was turned, despite her being in no real danger yet and having a clear veiw of everything going on in front of her. Also, it's not like she herself moved in between both charactes and erected the shield on her own. Her little fairies did it. She managed to block an attack from a serious Ulqiorra. So her strength is atleast on par with Ichigo's, who was also able to block the attacks aswell, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    She took on the full sworm that Ichigo, for some reason, couldn't run circles around. This despite flying capabilities in HM. She stopped him from making more yes, but that doesn't change that she still defeated the group Ichigo couldn't trash in an instant with his 'speed'.

    Unless she ran circles around him I don't see what your point is. He didn't run circles around him because there were more and more hollow to cut down. Infact, he probaby did cut down alot, quickly aswell, but it never mattered because they were neverending. Having trouble finding the actual chapter but I'm sure that's what happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101
    Grimmjaw >>> Bankai Ichigo in speed, Grimmjaw < #7 by sheer virtue of lacking the ability to create any substantial after images at all, Byakuya's able to keep up with #7 without pulling his bankai, Byakuya's only barely able to keep up with Bankai Ichigo after he started to slow down with said bankai.

    The speed difference wasn't that immense between Ichigo and Grimmjow. IMO. I think I remember him dodging Grimmjow's punch and countering, only for him to catch his sword. It was more the power difference that screwed him over, along with his inability to damage his hierro and his fear of his own power hindering him. But yes, Grimmjow was faster than Byakuya. This helps prove my point that the reason Ichigo didn't speedblitz Grimmjow the way everyone expected him to is because he really was faster than Byakuya. Ichigo didn't get slower, he just fought someone that was faster than Byakuya.

    As for Byakuya being faster than Leroux...I'm not so sure it's by a large enough amount to matter, if at all. Not to mention Sonido speed isn't necessarily equal to overall movement speed. Grimmjow's shown a greater movement speed altogether IMO. I mean, Leroux's afterimages themselves didn't move at a speed that close to Byakuya's, he could still cut down every one with no problem (til he got doubleteamed).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro
    Shikai Ichigo did better against Kenpachi than against Dordoni. Kenpachi can defeat Dordoni even if his hands are tied up. What further evidence do we need?

    You don't remember Ichigo getting that boost from Zangetsu, or his mask manifesting? It was also a one on one fight. Against Dordonii he was trying his best not to use his full strength while protecting Nel. And when he did get serious he finished him. Dordonii even tells him he didn't need to use his full strength to beat him. It took everything Ichigo had, plus help from Zangetsu to take down Kenpachi and it was still, technically a draw.

    All this proves is that base Dordonii>Shikai Ichigo. Says nothing about Ichigo's bankai.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Maestro
    Ichigo (bankai) did better against Byakuya (bankai) than against Grimmjow (sealed), I think Byakuya (bankai) would curbstomp Grimmjow (sealed). Byakuya couldn't handle Ichigo's speed but he handled Zommari just fine but Ichigo didn't seem faster than Grimmjow who was slower than Zommari. We have reference points to compare them and comparison says Ichigo's impressive shinigami powers in SS arc sucked in arrancar arc.

    Again, Zommari had the best Sonido, but wasn't the fastest Espada. From what we've seen he was barely, if at all, faster than Grimmjow, and his released form is completely immobile. And Byakuya didn't outrun Zommari, he just kept up with his afterimages, reacting to them rather than outpacing them. And Ichigo failed against Grimmjow because of the reasons I stated above. Most likely atleast.

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