Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread

[Random101]

It still bugs me that Aizen never though KS would be a good idea against Dangai Ichigo...

Aizen Planned Dangai Ichigo for some retarded reason that was never explained. Seriously. Went out of his way to allow it to happen. *Facepalm*

[Raizen]

I didn't forget anything, you just don't understand how kage oni works. The only shadow he can hide inside is his opponent's, but how can he find the time to sink into his opponents' shadow while he/she is not distracted and actively attacking him? Also, he probably can't play more than one game at a time.

Where is it stated he can only hide in teh shadow of his opponent? Furthermore, what makes u think he can't hide in a full on battle. U act as if shunsui is only good if his opponent is distracted.

U are the one assuming urahara is so smart he can figure anything out in a millisecond. But i am done responding to u

[El Samurai Guapo]

Where is it stated he can only hide in teh shadow of his opponent? Furthermore, what makes u think he can't hide in a full on battle. U act as if shunsui is only good if his opponent is distracted.

U are the one assuming urahara is so smart he can figure anything out in a millisecond. But i am done responding to u

It wasn't, but you can't assume he can just cause it suits you. That would be like me saying Kisuke can make his red shikai energy take any shape or form he wants (and not simply shields and nets), simply because it hasn't been stated he can't.

The rules of Kage oni are: whoever steps onto their opponent's shadow first wins. Nothing was ever stated about him being able to get into any shadow he wants, nor did he ever show us he was capable of doing so.

[Jackk]

Where is it stated he can only hide in teh shadow of his opponent? Furthermore, what makes u think he can't hide in a full on battle. U act as if shunsui is only good if his opponent is distracted.

The the rule for Kage Oni is the following: the one whose shadow gets stepped on loses http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch374-06.png ...which highly implies that Shunsui can only get inside his opponent's shadow and then attack. We do know that Shunsui actually came out of Stark's shadow in FKT.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-5.html

Further, when Shunsui came out of the shadow that was in Hitsugaya's "ice pillar" right before stabbing Aizen in FKT...shunsui didn't actually come out of the ice's shadow; he actually came directly out of Aizen's shadow, which was cast on the ice without Aizen noticing. Although Aizen didn't really get hit because of LOLillusions, but still.

http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch391-16.png
http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch391-17.png
http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/19694

[Takahashi]

@Jackk

That's interesting, I've never noticed that before. Wait.....Why are we talking about Shunsui now?

[El Samurai Guapo]

The the rule for Kage Oni is the following: the one whose shadow gets stepped on loses http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch374-06.png ...which highly implies that Shunsui can only get inside his opponent's shadow and then attack. We do know that Shunsui actually came out of Stark's shadow in FKT.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-5.html

Further, when Shunsui came out of the shadow that was in Hitsugaya's "ice pillar" right before stabbing Aizen in FKT...shunsui didn't actually come out of the ice's shadow; he actually came directly out of Aizen's shadow, which was cast on the ice without Aizen noticing. Although Aizen didn't really get hit because of LOLillusions, but still.

http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch391-16.png
http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?d...h-ch391-17.png
http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/19694

Precisely, in both cases while his opponent was distracted, Shunsui went off and found his opponent's shadow on the ground, crawled inside it, and waited...

Doesn't really seem like something that would be easy to pull of in a face to face confrontation.

[Random101]

And yet he can stab the perfectly lit ground and his sword will pop up to attack you. Suffice to say the specifics aren't that simple as they are currently presented. >>

Granted it is indeed correct that all that is needed is for you to be touching your shadow, which pretty much isn't happening in the air unless you have some massive shadow casting limbs on you (Which is pretty much limited to those with wings frankly), thus with knowledge it's easily avoided. However if the first hit's fatal and out of nowhere it won't end pretty.

[El Samurai Guapo]

And yet he can stab the perfectly lit ground and his sword will pop up to attack you. Suffice to say the specifics aren't that simple as they are currently presented. >>

Granted it is indeed correct that all that is needed is for you to be touching your shadow, which pretty much isn't happening in the air unless you have some massive shadow casting limbs on you (Which is pretty much limited to those with wings frankly), thus with knowledge it's easily avoided. However if the first hit's fatal and out of nowhere it won't end pretty.

I think that's just some quirk of how that panel was drawn. On the page before we see that Shunsui is indeed still standing on Starrk's shadow (bottom-center panel). http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-8.html. So yeah I'm pretty sure he stabbed into the shadow.

[Raizen]

But what makes u think it is hard to hide in teh shadows? Form the looks of it, all he does is submerge into the shadows, which isn't hard to do.

But its obvious that none of us will persuade the other. Urahara has shown me nothing that makes me think he can beat shunsui. Not only has shunsui shown feats but he has praises backing him up

[Random101]

I think that's just some quirk of how that panel was drawn. On the page before we see that Shunsui is indeed still standing on Starrk's shadow (bottom-center panel). http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-8.html. So yeah I'm pretty sure he stabbed into the shadow.

Notice that big lit space in front of him caused by the fork in Starrk's legs? Roughly the place where he would be stabbing anyway? Yeah.

Suffice to say he doesn't have to hide in the opponents shadow regardless, even if the viability of actually having to be physically touching the shadow is unclear. We could argue this and while I could say blaming Kubo's art fails on it is a weak excuse, if somewhat valid given his quality of late, it doesn't change the fact that the only clear cut rule is that YOU have to be touching YOUR shadow. He does not however have to be hiding in yours, and whether or not he even has to be touching it is unclear to heavily suggested to the contrary given that panel to say the least.

Though frankly if he is hiding in yours, the hell you gunna do about it, now you can't touch him. DOH.

[El Samurai Guapo]

Notice that big lit space in front of him caused by the fork in Starrk's legs? Roughly the place where he would be stabbing anyway? Yeah.

No, actually.

All I know is that Shunsui was standing on Starrk's shadow and had it stretched all the way to where he was. Then he stabbed the ground right in front of him where logically the shadow should be. In any case, Shunsui does have to be standing on his opponents shadow as well, even if he can stab the lit up ground.

Though frankly if he is hiding in yours, the hell you gunna do about it, now you can't touch him. DOH.

Just stay away from it until he comes out lol.

[Jackk]

@Jackk

That's interesting, I've never noticed that before. Wait.....Why are we talking about Shunsui now?

Umm... I just joined in this discussion, but I think people were discussing a possible Kisuke Vs Shunsui... maybe. Well, and I guess analyzing the mechanics of Shunsui's games is still somewhat relevant for his matches in this tournament.

would be like me saying Kisuke can make his red shikai energy take any shape or form he wants (and not simply shields and nets), simply because it hasn't been stated he can't.

Well, as far as we know... Kisuke can't actually turn his energy into more than energy blasts, a shield, and a net;however, he has used his energy blasts in different forms, shapes, and sizes lol...

As shown in the following links:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/...apter-235.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...4/page014.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...3/page016.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...3/page013.html

Also, Kisuke can adjust/amplify its power too, based on Kisuke being able to adjust it to exactly match his opponent's in order to cancel out their energy attacks; we saw this from Kisuke in both of his confrontations against Yami.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...4/page013.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-8/...apter-235.html

Granted to what extent can Kisuke amplify his energy blasts is currently unknown, but I really don't think that we've ever seen him using a fully powered energy blast yet; he has been doing them quite casually too. In addition, considering what we've seen from Kisuke, I'm pretty sure that he's also certainly capable of releasing his energy blasts at the same time as he's slashing something, which will definitely increase the power/strength of his strikes. Heck, we already know that he can even hold the energy in his blade, right here for example: http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/...apter-235.html

Precisely, in both cases while his opponent was distracted, Shunsui went off and found his opponent's shadow on the ground, crawled inside it, and waited...

Doesn't really seem like something that would be easy to pull of in a face to face confrontation.

Yeah, I really don't know why some people claim that Shunsui can just "hide in the shadows." From what we've seen, the reality is that Shunsui can only get inside his opponent's shadow, then come out to hit them. It's certainly a nice ability in theory, but there's no way that Shunsui can use that as easily against a cautious opponent who is also constantly on the move and/or attacking him. I mean, Shunsui only used his shadow game on Stark when Stark was distracted and talking to Rose and Love. Then, Shunsui used his shadow game once more against "Aizen" when he was distracted with Soifon and Hitsugaya.

I also don't think that Shunsui can use the shadow game at the same time as he's using the color game. I think Shunsui can only utilize one game at a time. Further, based on the fact that Stark was able to utilize his energy swords while in Shunsui's games...I also think that it's safe to say that Kisuke would also have access to his own abilities as well.

Besides, there's the fact that Shunsui can't always utilize his games because his zanpakutou has a mood problem, but we know that Kisuke's Benehime is always willing like a good girl.

And yet he can stab the perfectly lit ground and his sword will pop up to attack you. Suffice to say the specifics aren't that simple as they are currently presented. >>

When did we see him stabbing the perfectly lit ground?

Shunsui was inside Stark's shadow, just as he was inside "Aizen's" shadow later. Further, when Stark got stabbed... the sword that stabbed him seemed to be coming out of Stark's shadow from behind, then the sword retracted back to hide in the shadow, and moments after...we see Shunsui coming out of Stark's shadow.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...87-page-4.html

[El Samurai Guapo]

Well, as far as we know... Kisuke can't actually turn his energy into more than energy blasts, a shield, and a net;however, he has used his energy blasts in different forms, shapes, and sizes lol...

As shown in the following links:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/...apter-235.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...4/page014.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-15.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...3/page016.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/ch...3/page013.html

Also, Kisuke can adjust/amplify its power too, based on Kisuke being able to adjust it to exactly match his opponent's in order to cancel out their energy attacks; we saw this from Kisuke in both of his confrontations against Yami.

Yeah I know...

The point I was trying to make was that we can't grant characters extra abilities simply because the manga hasn't stated they can't do it. Maybe I choose a poor example since Kisuke can actually form his shikai energy into many shapes, but he can't send a...let's say red energy dragon at people just because I say he can, and it hasn't been said that he can't do so. That's basically what Raizen was arguing when he said Shunsui can go inside any shadow, simply 'cause it's never been said he can't.

[Takahashi]

I think Shunsui could find opportunities to use that Shadow stab. He likes to throw things in people's faces, and Busho Koma seems to make a good opening too:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-7112-9...apter-362.html

It's funny, because as hot as the shadow topic seems to be, I think it wouldn't come up often enough to rest your hopes on.

Urahara will likely figure out Shunsui's Shikai, but not before he gets attacked with it first. It could easily take 2 or 3 times to get the basics, and many more to actually understand how the proportional damage is related to risk as well.

I also think that like the Shadow attack, the Reiatsu cuffs will very rarely come into play if these two (or any combo with these guys) fight. Both seem situational and difficult to pull off for the most part. Why waste energy arguing it when the two Shikai's will be definitive.

[Jackk]

Yeah I know...

The point I was trying to make was that we can't grant characters extra abilities simply because the manga hasn't stated they can't do it. Maybe I choose a poor example since Kisuke can actually form his shikai energy into many shapes, but he can't send a...let's say red energy dragon at people just because I say he can, and it hasn't been said that he can't do so. That's basically what Raizen was arguing when he said Shunsui can go inside any shadow, simply 'cause it's never been said he can't.

Yup, sorry I guess I got a little carried away there...

Although, to tell you the truth... I'm sure you did know about what Kisuke could do with his energy blasts. I just took that line from you to elaborate a little more in general for other people who may be reading this thread as well, if you know what I mean.

But yeah, you're right in that we can't assume that Kisuke can just throw energy dragons or stuff like that lol. Likewise, Shunsui can't just hide inside any shadow he wants.