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Thread: Power balance inconsistency

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Power balance inconsistency

    While Naruto is not that strict with the power of each character, it at least established some limits. For example, in Part I none of the younger characters could fight with a Jounin.

    But somewhere after Part II it seems a character can win a fight when the authors feels like. More recently, we have seen Tobi badass fighting skills a few times, but all of a sudden he can't compete with Kakashi.

    There was moments in which weaker character could fight stronger opponents in Part I, like Sasuke meeting with Orochimaru for the first time. I always thought of that as clever writing back then, but now I started to think that may have been the same bullshit. I don't know.

    And there is the whole thing about Naruto... being the Hokage means to be the strongest in the village, and he has been the strongest Ninja from the Village ever since his fight with Kakuzu or Pain? And nobody has ever said a word about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    As far as Obito goes, the only reason that Kakashi was even a thing for him was due to the fact that he had his other eyeball. Besides that Obito's plan from the get-go was to get Kakashi to stab him so that he could become the 10 tails host. After that explanation I can accept the way things went down regarding that.

    However, as far as the inconsistencies go, I think it's been pretty well established by now that there is not really that much of a balance anymore. The zombies with the exception of a few drove this shit home. And it's not like I'm taking a crap on him, but just look at the guy situation. If that's not an example of characters are going to win a fight because the author wants them to, then I have no idea what is.

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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    being the Hokage means to be the strongest in the village
    Being Hokage means to be the leader of the village.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Yes, but it has also been said to be the strongest Ninja.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    Yes, but it has also been said to be the strongest Ninja.
    That is a conception made during the early part of the manga and it did not account for the entire mythology which would develop over the course of part II.

    What can be said about Hokage is that each was the strongest Shinobi of their generation.

    This is consistent in the entire manga, Hashirama had only one guy in the world who could rival his power during his age, Tobirama had nobody stronger than him after Hashirama and Madara were gone, Hiruzen was pearless during his prime days and so was Minato during his time as Hokage.

    What happened in the present is that Akatsuki brought together many Nukenin of Kage potential and the Rinnegan threw the balance of power completely off the curve.

    I'll be blunt, Tsunade is the strongest living ninja in the world if you discount Naruto, Itachi and every person who got a goddamn Rinnegan.

    Tsunade could fight on par with Orochimaru and single-handedly defeat any Akatsuki member on her own excluding Pain and Itachi.

    When we look upon the people who are above Tsunade sans Rinnegan, we realize they were repeatedly stated to be Hokage material and belong to a generation different than hers.

    Itachi had the mindset of a Hokage when he was 7 and the power to be one when he was 17, to me it's clear that Itachi would have become Hokage at some point if he didn't sully himself with a massacre or contracted a convenient heart disease.

    Naruto is the strongest person of his generation. He turned the tides of this war by himself and lead the Alliance to defeat Obito, if he doesn't die by some twisted trolling on Kishimoto's part then he will be the next Hokage.

    Now, the rest of the people stronger than Tsunade are all physical gods whose eyes literally make them nearly invincible.

    The Rinnegan is a storybreaker, it makes Kages look ridiculous by comparison as Pain demonstrated owning not just Jiraya and Tsunade but their entire villages at the same time.

    Obito, like Itachi, had potential to be Hokage as he could fight on par with Minato but once he put on a single Rinnegan he became a demi-god riding six Bijuus into battle.

    Anyone with a Rinnegan doesn't count when judging the power balance in this series.

    The other problem is Edo Tensei.

    Edo Tensei brings people from a different generation to fight the current one and that completely screws how you judge the current strongest person in the world.

    Tsunade is stronger than any of the other current Kage but how does she fare against the likes of the Third Raikage, Hiruzen, Hashirama or their rivals?

    This makes the comparison unfair because the Hokage is not meant to be the strongest person of all time.

    Hiruzen in his prime could trounce the Third Raikage and was stronger than any of his students came to be.

    Hashirama could trounce Madara and was stronger than any of his successors came to be.

    Yet the Third Raikage was awfully more powerful than the current Raikage and Madara could single-handedly defeat all current Kages put together.

    This is all because power varies from generation to generation and the Hokage of each era had a level befitting of their adversaries.

    The only living people from the current age who are stronger than Tsunade are Naruto, who is next Hokage, and Sasuke, another Rinnegan rider.
    Last edited by 1337 haxor; June 22, 2014 at 08:07 PM.
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    That is a conception made during the early part of the manga and it did not account for the entire mythology which would develop over the course of part II.

    What can be said about Hokage is that each was the strongest Shinobi of their generation.

    This is consistent in the entire manga, Hashirama had only one guy in the world who could rival his power during his age, Tobirama had nobody stronger than him after Hashirama and Madara were gone, Hiruzen was pearless during his prime days and so was Minato during his time as Hokage.

    What happened in the present is that Akatsuki brought together many Nukenin of Kage potential and the Rinnegan threw the balance of power completely off the curve.

    I'll be blunt, Tsunade is the strongest living ninja in the world if you discount Naruto, Itachi and every person who got a goddamn Rinnegan.

    Tsunade could fight on par with Orochimaru and single-handedly defeat any Akatsuki member on her own excluding Pain and Itachi.

    When we look upon the people who are above Tsunade sans Rinnegan, we realize they were repeatedly stated to be Hokage material and belong to a generation different than hers.

    Itachi had the mindset of a Hokage when he was 7 and the power to be one when he was 17, to me it's clear that Itachi would have become Hokage at some point if he didn't sully himself with a massacre or contracted a convenient heart disease.

    Naruto is the strongest person of his generation. He turned the tides of this war by himself and lead the Alliance to defeat Obito, if he doesn't die by some twisted trolling on Kishimoto's part then he will be the next Hokage.

    Now, the rest of the people stronger than Tsunade are all physical gods whose eyes literally make them nearly invincible.

    The Rinnegan is a storybreaker, it makes Kages look ridiculous by comparison as Pain demonstrated owning not just Jiraya and Tsunade but their entire villages at the same time.

    Obito, like Itachi, had potential to be Hokage as he could fight on par with Minato but once he put on a single Rinnegan he became a demi-god riding six Bijuus into battle.

    Anyone with a Rinnegan doesn't count when judging the power balance in this series.

    The other problem is Edo Tensei.

    Edo Tensei brings people from a different generation to fight the current one and that completely screws how you judge the current strongest person in the world.

    Tsunade is stronger than any of the other current Kage but how does she fare against the likes of the Third Raikage, Hiruzen, Hashirama or their rivals?

    This makes the comparison unfair because the Hokage is not meant to be the strongest person of all time.

    Hiruzen in his prime could trounce the Third Raikage and was stronger than any of his students came to be.

    Hashirama could trounce Madara and was stronger than any of his successors came to be.

    Yet the Third Raikage was awfully more powerful than the current Raikage and Madara could single-handedly defeat all current Kages put together.

    This is all because power varies from generation to generation and the Hokage of each era had a level befitting of their adversaries.

    The only living people from the current age who are stronger than Tsunade are Naruto, who is next Hokage, and Sasuke, another Rinnegan rider.
    Tsunade is most definitely NOT the strongest Ninja in the world.. She isn't even the strongest in Konoha!

    Tsunade and the 5 Kage couldn't take down EDO Madara. Granted he played with them and they landed a few hits but yeesh, You saw what happened with that fight.

    7 Gates Gai is the strongest, By far! Tsunade couldn't hold a Candle to him. 7 gates Gai took down Madara with Hidoura! BY HIMSELF! The freaking 5 Kage couldn't do that.

    Gai is stronger than Tsunade. Easily.

    Just add as well,

    Tsunade and the 5 kage were fighting Edo Madara. The weakest madara we have witnessed. Since then he has powered up twice (Once from Rinne Tensei, Another from becoming Juubi jin) before fighting gai. Gai matched his speed and power using 7 gates. He had to use the 8th to gain the advantage.

    I take it Gai didn't come to mind when you were writing that up.
    Last edited by Bradhimself; June 22, 2014 at 09:15 PM. Reason: Additional Information
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradhimself View Post
    Tsunade is most definitely NOT the strongest Ninja in the world.. She isn't even the strongest in Konoha!

    Tsunade and the 5 Kage couldn't take down EDO Madara. Granted he played with them and they landed a few hits but yeesh, You saw what happened with that fight.

    7 Gates Gai is the strongest, By far! Tsunade couldn't hold a Candle to him. 7 gates Gai took down Madara with Hidoura! BY HIMSELF! The freaking 5 Kage couldn't do that.

    Gai is stronger than Tsunade. Easily.

    Just add as well,

    Tsunade and the 5 kage were fighting Edo Madara. The weakest madara we have witnessed. Since then he has powered up twice (Once from Rinne Tensei, Another from becoming Juubi jin) before fighting gai. Gai matched his speed and power using 7 gates. He had to use the 8th to gain the advantage.

    I take it Gai didn't come to mind when you were writing that up.
    Guy knocked away a single complete Susanoo from a distracted Madara with the 7th Gate whereas Tsunade lead the Kages against 25 clones using Susanoos on that same level.

    Not only that but Guy can only use the 7th Gate for a few minutes before tiring up, remember he was out of chakra after a single Hirudora, while Tsunade can keep her Byakugou going on for hours and destroy things of the same scale with just her base strenght.

    We cannot count 7th Gate Guy above Tsunade first, because it is not really noticeably more powerful than the conjunction of her regeneration and strenght, and second, because is a lot less sustainable than the conjunction of her regeneration and strenght.

    The second problem is the same as to why we can't count 8th Gate Guy as the strongest Shinobi in the world despite easily displaying the power for that, it is a suicidal technique which can be used only once.

    You can't have a Hokage who depends on techniques which destroy his health and chakra after just a few minutes of being used whereas his average is way below Hokage level.

    This is why Tsunade would choose Kakashi as her direct successor rather than Guy, because Kakashi is on average a much better and reliable Shinobi whose power doesn't depend entirely on his Sharingan which even then so he can use multiple times in a row and with deadly effects.

    Guy is extremely good at Taijutsu, he is unrivalled in that department yet he lacks in many other areas which makes him weaker than the collection of abilities both Tsunade and Kakashi possesses.

    If Guy could use the 7th Gate several times in a day without needing a Tailed-Beast to recharge him after each use then he would easily be the most powerful Shinobi in the world.
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bradhimself's Avatar
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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    Guy knocked away a single complete Susanoo from a distracted Madara with the 7th Gate whereas Tsunade lead the Kages against 25 clones using Susanoos on that same level.

    Not only that but Guy can only use the 7th Gate for a few minutes before tiring up, remember he was out of chakra after a single Hirudora, while Tsunade can keep her Byakugou going on for hours and destroy things of the same scale with just her base strenght.

    We cannot count 7th Gate Guy above Tsunade first, because it is not really noticeably more powerful than the conjunction of her regeneration and strenght, and second, because is a lot less sustainable than the conjunction of her regeneration and strenght.

    The second problem is the same as to why we can't count 8th Gate Guy as the strongest Shinobi in the world despite easily displaying the power for that, it is a suicidal technique which can be used only once.

    You can't have a Hokage who depends on techniques which destroy his health and chakra after just a few minutes of being used whereas his average is way below Hokage level.


    This is why Tsunade would choose Kakashi as her direct successor rather than Guy, because Kakashi is on average a much better and reliable Shinobi whose power doesn't depend entirely on his Sharingan which even then so he can use multiple times in a row and with deadly effects.

    Guy is extremely good at Taijutsu, he is unrivalled in that department yet he lacks in many other areas which makes him weaker than the collection of abilities both Tsunade and Kakashi possesses.

    If Guy could use the 7th Gate several times in a day without needing a Tailed-Beast to recharge him after each use then he would easily be the most powerful Shinobi in the world.
    So Gai soloing Madara vs 5 Kage attack makes Tsunade a better Shinobi?

    Also Gai can use it several times a day. He stated so himself, The manga reflects this also.

    In 1 day he used the 6th gate, then the 7th gate vs kisame (recieved no extra chakra). He fought White Zetsu and Edos in a war (No extra chakra given). Then he helped kakashi save naruto and used lower gates in their fight against version 2 Jinchuuriki (still recieved no extra chakra) Then Naruto and Kurama linked and finally he was given a break and was healed slightly (Still heavy breathing ect..). Then he solo'd Madara, Given he was off guard (Rare for a rinnegan/sharingan user) He not only broke the Susano'o but he sent it flying. The combined effort of all 5 kage only managed to break it.

    Compare the efforts of both Shinobi, Gai is overlooked by many. He is not a one trick pony!

    EDIT:

    Gai can use various gates numerous times a day, even when he is exhausted he can rest/ take cover and build his chakra back up and do it again.

    Tsunade once exhausted turns into the old lady she is an slips into a coma..

    It is a very one sided comparison.
    Last edited by Bradhimself; June 23, 2014 at 12:13 AM. Reason: Addition
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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Gai is far stronger than Tsuande, and prior to losing his Sharigan you could argue so was Kakashi.

    Tsuande can tank damage all she wants but she lacks speed and range along with a true "killer" technique like Kamui or The 8 Gates. Also, I'd take Gaara or Onoki over her in a heartbeat in terms of just battle prowess and ability.

    Tsuande is a great Hokage no doubt and she can hold her own against the big boys, but she isn't one of the strongest, far from it.
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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Of course. Tsunade's role as part of the sannin is just to support orochimaru and jiraiya. She wasn't really a killer, she was a saver.

    So, as a hokage, tsunade isn't really that strong compared to the other hokages. But at the same time, she wasn't ''that'' weak either.

    But then again, we haven't seen everything she had on her arsenal. But I'm pretty sure she's more stronger than guy and kakashi. She was the best medical ninja of all time, she can cure any poison, so maybe she can also use any poison as a part of her arsenal. And the most intriguing about her is that, if she got the ability to use sage mode. She got all the requirements needed to become a sage slug user after all.

    If ever she had that mode, then there's no doubt tsunade would become the strongest current kages.

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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Guy using the Eight Gates doesn't count, a dead man can't be Hokage.

    Also note that the elders asked for Jiraya to be Hokage before looking for Tsunade, who refused it. Kakashi was also a candidate after Tsunade. And these cases also consistent with Hokage being the strongest Ninja of the village.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    Also note that the elders asked for Jiraya to be Hokage before looking for Tsunade, who refused it. Kakashi was also a candidate after Tsunade. And these cases also consistent with Hokage being the strongest Ninja of the village.
    Hokage isn't necessarily the strongest shinobi of the village. If it was as simple as that, Naruto would've been selected immediately after defeating Nagato. And Sarutobi probably wouldn't have returned to his post in his aged state after Minato's death. The Hokage is quite simply the one selected by whatever random means the next Hokage is to be chosen by, whether that is by popular vote, direct appointment by one's predecessor, by default, or by the Konoha Council. Obviously a certain level of ability is required, but being the strongest isn't a starting point.

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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    That is a conception made during the early part of the manga and it did not account for the entire mythology which would develop over the course of part II.

    What can be said about Hokage is that each was the strongest Shinobi of their generation.

    This is consistent in the entire manga, Hashirama had only one guy in the world who could rival his power during his age, Tobirama had nobody stronger than him after Hashirama and Madara were gone, Hiruzen was pearless during his prime days and so was Minato during his time as Hokage.

    What happened in the present is that Akatsuki brought together many Nukenin of Kage potential and the Rinnegan threw the balance of power completely off the curve.

    I'll be blunt, Tsunade is the strongest living ninja in the world if you discount Naruto, Itachi and every person who got a goddamn Rinnegan.

    Tsunade could fight on par with Orochimaru and single-handedly defeat any Akatsuki member on her own excluding Pain and Itachi.

    When we look upon the people who are above Tsunade sans Rinnegan, we realize they were repeatedly stated to be Hokage material and belong to a generation different than hers.

    Itachi had the mindset of a Hokage when he was 7 and the power to be one when he was 17, to me it's clear that Itachi would have become Hokage at some point if he didn't sully himself with a massacre or contracted a convenient heart disease.

    Naruto is the strongest person of his generation. He turned the tides of this war by himself and lead the Alliance to defeat Obito, if he doesn't die by some twisted trolling on Kishimoto's part then he will be the next Hokage.

    Now, the rest of the people stronger than Tsunade are all physical gods whose eyes literally make them nearly invincible.

    The Rinnegan is a storybreaker, it makes Kages look ridiculous by comparison as Pain demonstrated owning not just Jiraya and Tsunade but their entire villages at the same time.

    Obito, like Itachi, had potential to be Hokage as he could fight on par with Minato but once he put on a single Rinnegan he became a demi-god riding six Bijuus into battle.

    Anyone with a Rinnegan doesn't count when judging the power balance in this series.

    The other problem is Edo Tensei.

    Edo Tensei brings people from a different generation to fight the current one and that completely screws how you judge the current strongest person in the world.

    Tsunade is stronger than any of the other current Kage but how does she fare against the likes of the Third Raikage, Hiruzen, Hashirama or their rivals?

    This makes the comparison unfair because the Hokage is not meant to be the strongest person of all time.

    Hiruzen in his prime could trounce the Third Raikage and was stronger than any of his students came to be.

    Hashirama could trounce Madara and was stronger than any of his successors came to be.

    Yet the Third Raikage was awfully more powerful than the current Raikage and Madara could single-handedly defeat all current Kages put together.

    This is all because power varies from generation to generation and the Hokage of each era had a level befitting of their adversaries.

    The only living people from the current age who are stronger than Tsunade are Naruto, who is next Hokage, and Sasuke, another Rinnegan rider.
    I agree with this post including the Tsunade aspect of power ranking amongst her fellow current Kage.

    Though I must say that another experienced folk is on a level with Tsunade as well overall given his feats..... The Tsuchikage. I was impressed with the old man...though he is rather lacking in stamina.

    Garra has the most potential for growth amongst the recent Kage, but he's behind them all with the exception of mizukage. She was just...meh tbh. Not to mention she was rather weak-willed compared to the rest.

    And the Raikage is a one trick pony, but an extremely proficient one trick pony who is probably above Garra and certainly above Mizukage overall. He is also experienced

    But Tsunade and Tsuchikage stand out as the clear strongest of the recent Kage.

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    Re: Power balance inconsistency

    i just cant imagine guy in a hokage outfit sitting behind a desk lol and probably couldnt even take him seriously outside of battle/training and he might make everyone wear those green training outfits xD

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradhimself View Post
    So Gai soloing Madara vs 5 Kage attack makes Tsunade a better Shinobi?

    Also Gai can use it several times a day. He stated so himself, The manga reflects this also.

    In 1 day he used the 6th gate, then the 7th gate vs kisame (recieved no extra chakra). He fought White Zetsu and Edos in a war (No extra chakra given). Then he helped kakashi save naruto and used lower gates in their fight against version 2 Jinchuuriki (still recieved no extra chakra) Then Naruto and Kurama linked and finally he was given a break and was healed slightly (Still heavy breathing ect..). Then he solo'd Madara, Given he was off guard (Rare for a rinnegan/sharingan user) He not only broke the Susano'o but he sent it flying. The combined effort of all 5 kage only managed to break it.

    Compare the efforts of both Shinobi, Gai is overlooked by many. He is not a one trick pony!

    EDIT:

    Gai can use various gates numerous times a day, even when he is exhausted he can rest/ take cover and build his chakra back up and do it again.

    Tsunade once exhausted turns into the old lady she is an slips into a coma..

    It is a very one sided comparison.
    Guy is not on Hokage level unless he uses the 7th Gate and this gate in particular tires him up extremely quickly, his 6th Gate is not enough to beat Kisame who admitted himself was no match for the likes of a Sannin.

    Guy is not a one trick poney, he is an elite Jonin, the greatest Taijutsu user in the world and possibly the greatest of all time but his power inconsistency makes him an unreliable candidate for Hokage.

    When Guy used the 7th Gate for a single attack against Kisame he didn't march straight into the war, he was left exhausted and had to be healed before entering the battlefield again.

    By comparison, Tsunade used her Byakugou for hours against Madara and still kept it after being brutally bisected and forced to divert her chakra for healing other four Kage level fighters.

    You can't have a Hokage who fights at the level of Hokage for just a few minutes before having to leave the battlefield in a completely worn-down fashion.

    Minato was Hokage because he could spam the Hiraishin for hours if he didn't have to teleport something ridiculously big like a Tailed Beast.

    Hiruzen was Hokage because he knew enough techniques to fight the enemy for hours if he had to.

    Tobirama was Hokage because he could spam the Hiraishin and use several other techniques for hours against the enemy.

    Hashirama was the Hokage because he could summon giant wooden statues for hours to fight against the enemy.

    Kakashi was appointed as the next Hokage not because he could use his Sharingan and Chidori for a few times a day but because his intelligence and vast arsenal of techniques could hold of the enemy for hours if he had to.

    Guy can fight for hours with just his normal Taijutsu but at basic level he would only qualify as a Tokubetsu Jonin and he would hardly make it past a high level opponent from Akatsuki or an enemy village as expected from a Kage.

    If I were to try and rank Guy I'd say he goes more or less like this:

    Base level - 10% of Tsunade's level
    1st Gate - 20%
    2nd Gate - 30%
    3rd Gate - 40%
    4th Gate - 50%
    5th Gate - 60%
    6th Gate - 70%
    7th Gate -80%
    8th Gate - 1000%

    At least to me each Gate until the 7th multiplies the person's basic abilities by the number of that gate so that Guy is some 7 times stronger when he uses the 7th.

    The 8th Gate is as ludicrous as it looks because it makes you a hundred times stronger than you naturally are so it would be as if 10 Tsunades were punching and kicking Madara together at each blow he received.
    Captain Mashima and Admiral Kishimoto give your ships one big fat F*** YOU ALL!

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